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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 09:35 AM        "WIPED OFF THE MAP" - The Rumor of the Century
This mistranslation has been repeated ad nauseum, it's really annoying that people believe the headlines straight up. the rednecks i run into throw this out over and over a gain and don't listen to anything but 'that guys a madman!' blabla. Too bad the title of this debunking is also a little exagerated .. its more like the rumor of the year or should be.

"WIPED OFF THE MAP" - The Rumor of the Century
by Arash Norouzi, January 20, 2007

Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map". Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as the following article will prove.

BACKGROUND:

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled "The World Without Zionism". Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster's title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass' narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it's important to note that the "quote" in question was itself a quote— they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

THE ACTUAL QUOTE:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "Regime", pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh", is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's President threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", despite never having uttered the words "map", "wipe out" or even "Israel".

THE PROOF:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

THE SPEECH AND CONTEXT:

While the false "wiped off the map" extract has been repeated infinitely without verification, Ahmadinejad's actual speech itself has been almost entirely ignored. Given the importance placed on the "map" comment, it would be sensible to present his words in their full context to get a fuller understanding of his position. In fact, by looking at the entire speech, there is a clear, logical trajectory leading up to his call for a "world without Zionism". One may disagree with his reasoning, but critical appraisals are infeasible without first knowing what that reasoning is.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad declares that Zionism is the West's apparatus of political oppression against Muslims. He says the "Zionist regime" was imposed on the Islamic world as a strategic bridgehead to ensure domination of the region and its assets. Palestine, he insists, is the frontline of the Islamic world's struggle with American hegemony, and its fate will have repercussions for the entire Middle East.

Ahmadinejad acknowledges that the removal of America's powerful grip on the region via the Zionists may seem unimaginable to some, but reminds the audience that, as Khomeini predicted, other seemingly invincible empires have disappeared and now only exist in history books. He then proceeds to list three such regimes that have collapsed, crumbled or vanished, all within the last 30 years:

(1) The Shah of Iran- the U.S. installed monarch

(2) The Soviet Union

(3) Iran's former arch-enemy, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

In the first and third examples, Ahmadinejad prefaces their mention with Khomeini's own words foretelling that individual regime's demise. He concludes by referring to Khomeini's unfulfilled wish: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise". This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.

THE ORIGIN:

One may wonder: where did this false interpretation originate? Who is responsible for the translation that has sparked such worldwide controversy? The answer is surprising.

The inflammatory "wiped off the map" quote was first disseminated not by Iran's enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran's official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran's Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.

Amid heated wrangling over Iran's nuclear program, and months of continuous, unfounded accusations against Iran in an attempt to rally support for preemptive strikes against the country, the imperialists had just been handed the perfect raison d'être to invade. To the war hawks, it was a gift from the skies.

It should be noted that in other references to the conference, the IRNA's translation changed. For instance, "map" was replaced with "earth". In some articles it was "The Qods occupier regime should be eliminated from the surface of earth", or the similar "The Qods occupying regime must be eliminated from the surface of earth". The inconsistency of the IRNA's translation should be evidence enough of the unreliability of the source, particularly when transcribing their news from Farsi into the English language.

THE REACTION:

The mistranslated "wiped off the map" quote attributed to Iran's President has been spread worldwide, repeated thousands of times in international media, and prompted the denouncements of numerous world leaders. Virtually every major and minor media outlet has published or broadcast this false statement to the masses. Big news agencies such as The Associated Press and Reuters refer to the misquote, literally, on an almost daily basis.

Following news of Iran's remark, condemnation was swift. British Prime Minister Tony Blair expressed "revulsion" and implied that it might be necessary to attack Iran. U.N. chief Kofi Annan cancelled his scheduled trip to Iran due to the controversy. Ariel Sharon demanded that Iran be expelled from the United Nations for calling for Israel's destruction. Shimon Peres, more than once, threatened to wipe Iran off the map. More recently, Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu, who has warned that Iran is "preparing another holocaust for the Jewish state" is calling for Ahmadinejad to be tried for war crimes for inciting genocide.

The artificial quote has also been subject to additional alterations. U.S. officials and media often take the liberty of dropping the "map" reference altogether, replacing it with the more acutely threatening phrase "wipe Israel off the face of the earth". Newspaper and magazine articles dutifully report Ahmadinejad has "called for the destruction of Israel", as do senior officials in the United States government.

President George W. Bush said the comments represented a "specific threat" to destroy Israel. In a March 2006 speech in Cleveland, Bush vowed he would resort to war to protect Israel from Iran, because, "..the threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel." Former Presidential advisor Richard Clarke told Australian TV that Iran "talks openly about destroying Israel", and insists, "The President of Iran has said repeatedly that he wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth". In an October 2006 interview with Amy Goodman, former UN Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter referred to Ahmadinejad as "the idiot that comes out and says really stupid, vile things, such as, 'It is the goal of Iran to wipe Israel off the face of the earth' ". The consensus is clear.

Confusing matters further, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad pontificates rather than give a direct answer when questioned about the statement, such as in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:

Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

We need to look at the scene in the Middle East — 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza — what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

Our suggestion is very clear:... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted.... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago...

So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people.

The exchange is typical of Ahmadinejad's interviews with the American media. Predictably, both Mike Wallace of 60 Minutes and CNN's Anderson Cooper asked if he wants to "wipe Israel off the map". As usual, the question is thrown back in the reporter's face with his standard "Don't the Palestinians have rights?, etc." retort (which is never directly answered either). Yet he never confirms the "map" comment to be true. This did not prevent Anderson Cooper from referring to earlier portions of his interview after a commercial break and lying, "as he said earlier, he wants Israel wiped off the map".
...
<snip> nuther page and full story at: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=4527
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 10:10 AM       
Oh, sweet tap dancing Christ.

There's no reason to respond at length, I'm sure this will piss abc off enough to respond.

However, Ranxer, I will say that this quote is not essential to believe that Iran (as well as Iran's financed surrogates) wish to destroy Israel. Hezbollah's leader declared that having all the Jews in israel makes their work easier. Iran hosted a Holocaust denial conference a couple of months ago with the likes of David Duke and Geggy in attendance.

Ranxer, I think you are a damn fool if you buy into this rationalization of one quote, and I feel sorry for you.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 10:17 AM        Re: "WIPED OFF THE MAP" - The Rumor of the Century
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled "The World Without Zionism". Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster's title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass' narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it's important to note that the "quote" in question was itself a quote— they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.
Oh gee, I feel so much better now.


I will admit that it's interesting that he's being drastically misquoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".
Which is something that Ahmadinejad fervently believes. Talking about Israel being "wiped off the map" would just be a harsher way of saying the same damned thing.

That being said, it's extremely irritating at how drastically he's been rampantly misquoted, though.


Quote:
In the first and third examples, Ahmadinejad prefaces their mention with Khomeini's own words foretelling that individual regime's demise. He concludes by referring to Khomeini's unfulfilled wish: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise". This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.
This is where you really lost me. The Iraq War was also a "regime change". You know, I lean liberal, but defending Ahmadinejad is retarded. He's the Iranian equivalent of David Duke, sleazy, evasive, and dangerous. More so in Ahmadinejad, he's in control of a country. Mainstream America just laughs at David Duke.

Quote:
The inflammatory "wiped off the map" quote was first disseminated not by Iran's enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran's official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran's Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.
This is damned interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
Confusing matters further, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad pontificates rather than give a direct answer when questioned about the statement, such as in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:

Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

We need to look at the scene in the Middle East — 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza — what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

etc
Once again, very David Duke.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 10:31 AM       
Courtesy of the rich, organ stealing Jews at the ADL:

December 12, 2006



“Thanks to people’s wishes and God’s will the trend for the existence of the Zionist regime is downwards and this is what God has promised and what all nations want…Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out”

(Comments to Iran’s Holocaust Conference)

November 29, 2006



"What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the banking, financial, cultural and media sectors?"

(Letter from Ahmadinejad "to the American people")


November 13, 2006

"Israel is destined for destruction and will soon disappear"
Israel is "a contradiction to nature, we foresee its rapid disappearance and destruction."

October 19, 2006

"The Zionist regime is counterfeit and illegitimate and cannot survive"
(as quoted by Iranian state television)

August 6, 2006



"They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals."

(as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006



"A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel."

(as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website)



August 2, 2006



"Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented."

(as quoted by Iranian TV)



"Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame."

(as quoted by Iranian TV)



July 27, 2006



"The occupying regime of Palestine has actually pushed the button of its own destruction by launching a new round of invasion and barbaric onslaught on Lebanon"

(as quoted by Islamic Republic News Agency via the Associated Press)




July 16, 2006

"The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan."
(as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006

"The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day."

"The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall."

"[Israel] has blackened the pages of history".
(as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006

"I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties."

"An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups."

"If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?"
(a news conference following a meeting with China's president)


May 28, 2006

"I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?"

"We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from."
(in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006

Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish."
(to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)



April 24, 2006

''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries."

(In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)



April 14, 2006

"The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm."

"If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years."
(In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on April 14-16 hosted in Tehran)

February 23, 2006

"These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts."
(In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)


January 5, 2006



"Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final."

(To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA, in a reference to the illness of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon).



"[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?"
(In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)



January 2, 2006



"[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism."
(In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)












December 14, 2005



"Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country."
(Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)



December 13, 2005



"If the killing of Jews in Europe is true and the Zionists are being supported because of this excuse, why should the Palestinian nation pay the price?"

(Comments published on Iranian state television's Web site)



December 8, 2005



"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe."

(While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)



November 27, 2005



"You [the United States], who have used nuclear weapons against innocent people, who have used uranium ordnance in Iraq, should be tried as war criminals in courts."

(During a nationally televised ceremony of the establishment of Iran's volunteer Basij paramilitary)



October 29, 2005



"They [the United States] think they are the absolute rulers of the world."

(Marching in a demonstration alongside a crowd of students in Tehran)



October 28, 2005



"They [International Zionist and Expansionist Policies of the World Arrogance, i.e. United States and Israel] are cheeky humans, and they think that the entire world should obey them. They destroy Palestinian families and expect nobody to object to them."

(Defending his earlier comments)



October 26, 2005



"Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land."

(In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')



June 19, 2005



"It is not just for a few states to sit and veto global approvals. Should such a privilege continue to exist, the Muslim world with a population of nearly 1.5 billion should be extended the same privilege."

(In an interview with state television shortly before his election)



June 8, 2005



The UN structure is one-sided, stacked against the world of Islam.

(In an interview on state television)
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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 10:48 AM       
The interpretation i lean toward is that Ahmadinejad was saying that the Israeli Regime is acting in a way that will bring about it's own demise. Granted, the same could be said of Iran. I'm not so much defending this guy as trying to point out that he's not as bad as he's made out to be(madman?).. i'm sure people are saying the same about bush in some circles but i don't need a translation for english, i gotta say ahmadinejad does seem more intelligent than gw.

regarding the holocaust denial stuff,(crap i didn't want to sidetrack on this but) there are similar mistranslations, yes, duke was allowed to speak and denials were present and quoteable, but i'm with those that say that the holocaust numbers are exaggerated for political reasons. the problem is that if one says no, not 6million but 4million get lumped into a 'denial' conspiracy which is utter bull.. don't forget that there were more than Jews targeted by Hitler but Isreal would too often have it all about Jews targeted and nothing else. I'm stuck in the middle telling the deniers they are full of crap and telling the other crowd they are exaggerating so i often get slammed by both sides. either way, it's not that simple, there were players involved in funding(profit), politics, and establishment of the state of 'Isreal' in America and Europe that are never talked about.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:03 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
I'm not so much defending this guy as trying to point out that he's not as bad as he's made out to be(madman?).. i'm sure people are saying the same about bush in some circles but i don't need a translation for english, i gotta say ahmadinejad does seem more intelligent than gw.
The guy is a radical muslim who wants his finger on a nuke. The fact that you even compare him to Bush isn't a total surprise, but it demonstrates just how far gone you really are.

Quote:
regarding the holocaust denial stuff,(crap i didn't want to sidetrack on this but)
It's amazing that you even consider it a tangent. I think that's very telling. Somehow the anti-semetic and hateful ramblings of an aggressive regime seeking out nuclear weaponry, in your mind, doesn't apply to how "bad a guy" he is, or whether or not the Jewish State should worry about their security.


Quote:
but i'm with those that say that the holocaust numbers are exaggerated for political reasons. the problem is that if one says no, not 6million but 4million get lumped into a 'denial' conspiracy which is utter bull.. don't forget that there were more than Jews targeted by Hitler but Isreal would too often have it all about Jews targeted and nothing else.
Because 4 million isn't a daunting number, those Jews always want more!

You sound ridiculous. If no one has told you that already, let me be the first. "Hey! Hitler killed gypsies too! Why don't we mourn them also!!?? I'll tell you why.....JEEEEWS!"


Quote:
I'm stuck in the middle telling the deniers they are full of crap and telling the other crowd they are exaggerating so i often get slammed by both sides. either way, it's not that simple, there were players involved in funding(profit), politics, and establishment of the state of 'Isreal' in America and Europe that are never talked about.
You should talk about them, THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW!
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:05 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
The interpretation i lean toward is that Ahmadinejad was saying that the Israeli Regime is acting in a way that will bring about it's own demise.
No. I'm sorry, but no. That's wishful thinking, pure and simple. The quote is, according to your article, "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

"Must". Not "Will eventually and inevitably". But "Must".


Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
regarding the holocaust denial stuff,(crap i didn't want to sidetrack on this but) there are similar mistranslations, yes, duke was allowed to speak and denials were present and quoteable, but i'm with those that say that the holocaust numbers are exaggerated for political reasons. the problem is that if one says no, not 6million but 4million get lumped into a 'denial' conspiracy which is utter bull..
Except that the "exaggerated" theory is rarely the ONLY theory these people have on the subject. Also, when anyone goes to a convention where David Duke pats them on the back, they forgo their right to bitch about people's immediate perceptions.



EDIT: Dammit, my shit is always too late.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:43 AM       
Kev, I fail to see where he made a threat to israel. His point is that zionism empire is a threat to israel. I'm sure majority of jews would agree that zionism is anti-semitism. Whether his remarks was misquoted or not, he's still a fucking crazy asshole, anyway. It just happens that I agree with a lot of things he says.

By the way why do you keep comparing me to the likes of david dukes? Are you retarded or something? In every community there are positive types and negative types. Can you explain why there can be such no thing as a terrorist who is an israeli? We come from western society, you would expect the western media to crank up positive light toward israel. How is that any different than the arab media who would do the same toward their own people? I know this forum is very pro-israel but I think it's important to give both sides a chance to tip the point where it's balanced to give one and other a fair shake.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:47 AM       
The fact that you actually believe I called you David Duke boggles my mind.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:51 AM       
I wasn't talking to you. :/
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:55 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geggy
Kev, I fail to see where he made a threat to israel. His point is that zionism empire is a threat to israel.
He's too fucking smart to declare outright war on Israel, you dolt. He'll dance around it his words, and hold conferences to goad the Israelis. He knows that if he threatens directly, Israel will respond. Observe Iraq's nuclear reactors. The real tough talk will begin AFTER he has nuclear capability.

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I'm sure majority of jews would agree that zionism is anti-semitism.
Source this, or never say it again.

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Whether his remarks was misquoted or not, he's still a fucking crazy asshole, anyway. It just happens that I agree with a lot of things he says.



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By the way why do you keep comparing me to the likes of david dukes? Are you retarded or something? In every community there are positive types and negative types. Can you explain why there can be such no thing as a terrorist who is an israeli? We come from western society, you would expect the western media to crank up positive light toward israel. How is that any different than the arab media who would do the same toward their own people? I know this forum is very pro-israel but I think it's important to give both sides a chance to tip the point where it's balanced to give one and other a fair shake.
Blah, blah, blah.....

Geggy, do you believe 6 million Jews died in The Nazi Holocaust? What exactly do you agree with Ahmadinenijad on?
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 12:29 PM       
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration has authorized the U.S. military to capture or kill Iranian agents in Iraq who are plotting attacks against U.S. and coalition forces, a U.S. national security official said Friday.

Bush will never tell you that as soon as Mahmoud held out that Olive branch there was secret talks...Iran will be key player in the next few years...
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 01:20 PM       
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I think it's important to give both sides a chance to tip the point where it's balanced to give one and other a fair shake
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 01:30 PM       
kevin, you are repeating misquotes..
you seem to buy them pretty completely. oh well, i don't agree with you, you have bought into what the mainstream media wants you to think, they have succeeded with most people so this is the typical arguements repeated on the radio and TV. radical nuke loving jew hating nutjob. whatever, too simplistic for me, if you knew his language i'm sure you wouldn't have the same opinion.

but,
a. we don't have any proof that he wants nukes, all we have is a crapload of pundits, thinktanks, radioheads and polititians saying he does.
b. nuclear power is a smart way to go post peak oil.
c. And if he does want nukes, i don't believe he's nearly the nutjob he's made out to be (in english translations), besides, the threat of nukes is a defence posture driven by the bush regime.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 01:45 PM       
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Originally Posted by ranxer
kevin, you are repeating misquotes..
Which ones? Can you point them out to me? I'd appreciate it if you could set me on the right path.

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you have bought into what the mainstream media wants you to think, they have succeeded with most people so this is the typical arguements repeated on the radio and TV. radical nuke loving jew hating nutjob. whatever, too simplistic for me, if you knew his language i'm sure you wouldn't have the same opinion.
1. You are an idiot.

2. Do you speak the language? It would appear to me that you have let someone who speaks the language decide for you. Better yet, you've let someone from a crack pot, conspiracist website make that decision for you. Couldn't you at least have pulled it from some lame Indy media site or something?


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a. we don't have any proof that he wants nukes, all we have is a crapload of pundits, thinktanks, radioheads and polititians saying he does.
False. Even liberal military critics, such as Sam Gardiner, believe Iran is pursuing it for weapons purposes.

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b. nuclear power is a smart way to go post peak oil.
So why then did they reject Russia's offer to provide them with nuclear energy for fuel purposes?

It's to be expected that once you lose the ability to defend your positions, you'll start attacking the veracity of mine with your tin foil hat arguments. Right, CNN isn't to be trusted, but "globalresearch.ca" should be. Absurd.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 01:50 PM       
Uh, ranx, the translation that other person wrote and you should have read before copying and pasting? Ya, well it really isn't much different from "Israel must be wiped off the map". All you did was give us someone else's semantics argument.

He says the Zionists because he will never actually use Israel as the name of the country. That should tip you off right there.

"Khomeini said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from page of time . "

And how exactly do you translate that? He keeps it just veiled enough so Israel can't retaliate.

If you have a problem with the way the Israeli government does things, fine, many people do and have legitimate gripes.

But why would you fall in with this maniac?

You don't happen to have a lovely piece on Kim Jong Il, by any chance, do you?
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 03:02 PM       
Mahv means "wiped off".

Holocaust denial is meant to question the facts of an attrocity against the Jewish people, end of story ...has the number of Gypsies, or Homos ever been what's in question by anyone other then neo-Nazis? No, it's the credebility of the Jewish people. It's the accusation that the victims have benefited. Jews make up less then 2% of the world population, and yet you think a 20 square mile desert plot of land under constant attack is some kind of grand conspiracy, and an affront to society. Iran's leadership claims that Israel is the result of Holocaust revitionism....and this technique is called turnspeak. Israel's has citys which were established by farmers in the late 1800's - how can you atrribute that to the Holocaust? See, you kids won't own up to denying the facts of the holocaust, but you're all too happy to accuse Israel of manipulating and revising Holocaust history in favor of the Jews. It's impossible to even rationalize why you think Jews would need to beg for empathy using the statistics of the Holocaust in the first place....but all too telling for how utterly disconnected and brainwashed you two hate-site spoutting dopeshits have become.

There isn't a language in the Mid-East which can be directly translated word for word. Not Farsi, not Hebrew, not any of the Arabic dialects. None of them. We can deduct from context and reasoning what someone like Ariel Sharon has said or not said. Likewise when someone with Ahmenichimps reputation says "the United States and the Zionist regime of Israel will soon come to the end of their lives" what does he mean? What does the chanting of "Death to America! Death to Israel!" mean in that context? He has said that Israel will "one day vanish". You can not talk about hitting Israel's nuclear reactors, without killing millions of Jews and Arabs in 3-4 seperate nations, and pretend that attack will only hurt "the Zionists". I've talked to a number of Persians, and all seem to agree, the translations are poor, as he speaks an upper class dialect, but that Ahmenihitler is without a doubt, a crazy anti-semitic loon. His beliefs are in line with David Duke's without apology.

Now let me make something clear for the brainwashed amongst us.... a Jewish State will always be a Zionist state....it's not a matter of political ideology, it's a matter of definition....and if you do not understand this, you shouldn't be pretending to understand the topic you're discussing at all.

Geggy: "Can you explain why there can be such no thing as a terrorist who is an israeli?"

Nobody here has ever made this claim. You on the other hand have suggested that only Israel's Jews can commit terrorism, doing so by controlling multiple governments, and media outlets. Own up to that, and stop pretending that claim is merely anti-Israeli establishment.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 03:09 PM       
"he's still a fucking crazy asshole, anyway. It just happens that I agree with a lot of things he says. " -Geggy
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 05:15 PM       
there was some quote i was trynig to figure out that encompasses my feelings of this thread, it's something like:

"It's not so much that i want him dead, so much as I want him to not exist.. anymore."
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 07:27 PM       
I seem to remember him making it very clear during the Mike Wallace interview, when by "it" I mean the semantic angle he was taking. He believes that Israel can and maybe even should exist, but sees no reason why it has to exist where it is. He even said that if the establishment of Israel was meant in some way as payment for the holocaust, then it should have been located in Germany.

He clearly believes Israel should not be located in his neighborhood, which pretty much means "wiped off the map," as he personally is only concerned with maps of areas controlled by Islam. His personal belief system proves this. He's a "twelver," remember? Similar to the Gush Eminem Zionists, his sect of the Muslim faith believes certain things must happen to prepare the way for the return of, in his case, the twelfth Imam, Mahdi. Al Sadr is also a twelver (Mahdi Army, anyone?) One of these prerequisites, of course, is Muslim control of, depending on the version you hear, either at least the holiest places in the faith, or maybe even the entire world.

So, the eviction at least of Israel is a high priority for him, spiritually, though the primary reasons for the Arab/Persian animosity toward Israel is now and always has been political in nature. Democracy goes against everything Mohammad taught his followers to strive for, of course, but in a more practical sense, totalitarian theocracies are extremely threatened by Western style liberal societies. The GDP of Israel is greater than that of the rest of the entire middle east, and it's right there! So close that their enslaved citizens can actually see it! THAT's the root of their support for the Palestinian people. They have forced Israel to remain as close to a Police State as they could for nearly it's entire existence now so as to give the impression that freedom is no better then the oppression most middle easterners currently enjoy.

As for Iran specifically, you guys need to come to the understanding that it needs to and eventually definitely will become a nuclear power. The reason that America has no plans to invade Iran is that it has no power whatsoever right now to do anything more then disrupt progress locally if it wishes to influence the region. That being said, it is still the center of gravity, politically speaking, for the middle east as it currently exists. If you want to compare Iran to something, compare it to our own de-clawed and impotent Democrat Party here in America.

Once Iran gets the bomb, and it will, the Islamic world will have a solid place at the table, so to speak. I'm sure the thought of that happening makes Abcdxxx's butthole shrink up so tight as to pinch off a sixteen penny nail, but them's the facts. That does not mean Israel will be attacked. Far from it. Using them is not what nukes are for. Look at the history of the conflict between Pakistan and India for a perfect example. Nuclear enemies that, somehow, some way, still seem to co-exist. Here's another, more stimulating example: The USSR disintegrated just fine without launching even one of their many, many nuclear tipped ICBMs.

Until the Muslim world gets that seat at the table through Iran, expect the exact same sort of progress in that region we have thus far experienced: None. Remember: the goal of the War on Terror is the end of terrorism as a means to a political end, not the domination of the 3rd world by the West. If we are hoping to count the rest of the world as peers rather than enemies, they will need the legitimacy of power they do not currently have in order to effect the political and economic changes required to bring them up to speed with the modern world.

I don't worry too much about mystic nutjobs like Ahminajihad. That sort of wacko has always found a way to shout from the hills. He is no more the actual voice of Iran than I am. He is only a tool that is useful in keeping this drama in the papers and thus on the front burners of otherwise blissfully ignorant Westerners that need to be made to understand this problem must be solved sooner rather than later. It's their money that will be needed to make it happen, and they will gladly give it once they've had to suffer through hearing about it every day for a certain period of time.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 08:02 PM       
What the fuck is Gush Eminem, and what the fuck do you think the settlers believe?

"spiritually, though the primary reasons for the Arab/Persian animosity toward Israel is now and always has been political in nature."

Stupidest thing you've ever said. Learn some fucking history. "now and always" ? Check into it. C'mon now, you're smarter then that.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 10:18 PM       
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you're smarter than that.
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:39 PM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
What the fuck is Gush Eminem, and what the fuck do you think the settlers believe?
Ummm... The answer to the first part is in the second part, and the settlers are preparing for the Messiah. Duh.

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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
"spiritually, though the primary reasons for the Arab/Persian animosity toward Israel is now and always has been political in nature."

Stupidest thing you've ever said. Learn some fucking history. "now and always" ? Check into it. C'mon now, you're smarter then that.
Always as in since the establishment of the ZIONIST ENTITY. Are you proposing that there's always been a religious feud between the Jews and the Arabs? Since we're warm to the topic, what's your ultimate solution here? What's it gonna take?
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Old Jan 26th, 2007, 11:46 PM       
one time someone told me that the reason jews and arabs hate eachother is because cain killed abel.
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Old Jan 27th, 2007, 06:05 AM       
Preechr - That Zionist entity is used as an excuse for age old hatred that pre-dates 1948. Can you reason that Islamic presecution existed towards Jews before modern Israel? Your statement was absurd. Even your questions are absurd.... do I have to believe Arabs and Jews are "feuding" to acknowledge an endless list of Islamic persecution of Jews since the Koranic era? Why is that even a question? The cool thing is, there have also been times of great tolerance, especially from the Persians who helped Jews rebuild the Second Temple. So what's it gonna take? A return to that type of tolerance, and love for humanity.

You'll have to forgive me...I've never heard of "Gush Eminem", but I'm sure it's the settlement right next to "Gush Reeses pieces". I imagine you're taking a bad translation and referencing an actual place, but I can only find some mentions of it on sketchy anti-Israel sites.

Either way - comparing Jews waiting for the Messiah to an Islamic Twelver is very misinformed. Firstly, the belief in the messiah is a basic tenant of mainstream Judaism, it's not specific to any one denomination, or political ideology. "Twelvers" is a belief only specific to Shiites, but not even all Shiites, and it's heavily disputed, even blacklisted in other Islamic communities. If you're outed as a twelver in Egypt you can have your life ruined. When Jews "prepare for the Messiah" it's reflective of their own behavior. There is no belief for example, that the Messiah will not arrive until Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims behave a certain way. That burden falls strictly on the Jewish people. That's different then the Muslim belief of imposing Islam as a goal to trigger some event. It doesn't sound like you really know why religious settlers believe they need to live in the Biblical location of Judea and Samaria.

Kahl - Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ishmael...I think it's has more to do with different phillosophies surrounding stories and characters shared by these three major religions...I believe Moses is mentioned in the Koran more then anyone, and Islam shares many of the same prophets....so sure, there's some animosity over who can be blamed for perverting their name, or turning their backs on other beliefs. Cain and Abel is mostly interesting in that it teaches us how to reflect on entitlement and punishment. Both religions have fundamental differences on who must be blamed before a "salvation" can occur.

....but to begin with, it's foolish to say "Arabs and Jews hate each other". Intolerant people hate other people who aren't the same as them. You don't need to source the bible for that one.
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