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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 09:28 AM        RONNIE SAYS I HATE WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR!
See, now, that stings.

So I got to thinking, what on earth does he mean?

What evidence is their anywhere in any post that I "Hate what America Stands For"?

I mean, who can say? Maybe I do? But I'd sure like to know. 'Cause here I was thinking I'm a pretty patriotic guy when it comes to what America Stands for, and as an active participant in our great democracy I'm dooing my duty as an American. But if I I've actually been Hating What America Stands for all this time and not knowing it, I'd at least like to do a better, more intentional job.

So if anyone can show me something America Stands for that I've shown I hate, help me out and put it in words.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 11:21 AM       
Cue the rabid jingoism. This morning, on CNN, they were discussing that Dixie Chick singer's critical comments about Dubya. I'm no fan of their music, but kudos to her for exercising her right to voice her disagreement to the American government's actions. However, those Timer-Warner shills on CNN displayed in the graphic a headline calling her comments 'anti-American'. How is pointing out what a dingus your leader is 'anti-American'?
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 12:01 PM       
and now people are burning their CD's, asking that they not get any radio play and forcing her to apologize to Bush.

I thought one of the things America stood for was free speech?
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 12:08 PM       
Of course, burning her records is free speech as well. Cnn calling her anti-American though, is vfery poor journalism. She said she was ashamed he was from Texas, and that's not even necessarily anti-texan.

I would say that there have always been loyal Americans who strongly disliked the president during all administrations and spoke out on the subject.
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Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 12:27 PM       
Talking down the president on forign soil at a time of war is Un-American.

She should be and IS ashamed of her remarks or so she says.....

It's probably the end of her career. The country music business is pretty Conservative and so are the listeners.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 12:41 PM       
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Talking down the president on forign soil at a time of war is Un-American.
In what way, Ronnie.

There is nothing in the constitution, nor in England's Laws, that says she can't do that.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 12:46 PM       
Hey, Nalds, thanks for missing the point of the thread! Or is that evading it?

Just in case you didn't take this as a direct question to you, lets pose it that way.

In what way do I hate what America stands for?
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 01:03 PM       
Quote:
Talking down the president on forign soil at a time of war is Un-American.
When she made that comment, your country hadn't gone to war yet. Using the implications from your statement, she was well within her right to 'talk down' Dubya, and, thus, you are wrong to call her 'Un-American'.

Are you suggesting that American citizens ought to shut up whilst military action is occurring, even if they strongly believe that the political and economic reasons for this invasion are wrong? That everyone become silent speed-bumps to American aggression? I need only point to the silent complicity of the majority of the constituents of Nazi Germany and the disaster that resulted, to remind you of the wrongness of your position.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 01:15 PM       
I totally disagree that them speaking out is anti-American. To be quite honest, I'm glad they did. Because the response they are receiving is what I believe Ronnie may be saying you hate burbank.

America was built on freedom. The ultimate display of freedom is capitalism. Their fan base is most likely, and I'm just guessing here, about 90% pro Bush and pro-action in Iraq. They were stupid for making the comment. The same way that Hollywood stars, while exersising their freedom, are STUPID for voicing their opinions so publically, regardless of whether they are pro or opposed. It would be like a supermodel shaving her head and getting a giant ass tattoo on her stomach - it's just bad business. When your career revolves around marketing yourself, you better be prepared to suffer the consequences of poor decision making. I hate the Dixie Chicks, always have. I hate all country music. This brilliant comment couldn't have made me more happy. Bad business = no $$$
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 01:24 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo Tom
Quote:
Talking down the president on forign soil at a time of war is Un-American.
When she made that comment, your country hadn't gone to war yet.
Ahh, but here's the catch. The WAR ON TERROR is forever.
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Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 02:06 PM       
"In what way do I hate what America stands for?" - Maxi

Well, the first thing people will notice is the fact that you are always so quick to focus on the negative aspects of what this country has done without stating the positive things we have accomplished. And you are always taking the postive and trying bring it down using 3rd rate conspiracy theories that nobody believes. Also, "averting doom" defined by you is economic despair and lots of dead American soldiers.

How else would you like me to state the obvious?

Miss,

"In what way, Ronnie. "

Every way.

Tom,

"When she made that comment, your country hadn't gone to war yet. "

Iraq is just a phase in the war on terror, so yes we are at war.

"I need only point to the silent complicity of the majority of the constituents of Nazi Germany and the disaster that resulted, to remind you of the wrongness of your position."

....and I only need to point out the free thriving democracies of France, Germany and Japan to show you the wrongness in yours. Who accomplished that? The U.S. and Britian. Who is trying to free another nation of opressed people held hostage by a tyrannt? The U.S. and Britian. And now who is opposing us? The very people we freed from an evil tyrannt! France would deny Iraqis the same freedoms that they enjoy and Germany would rather support another dictator just like they did during WWII.

History repeats itself.

Thanks for reminding me.


"Ahh, but here's the catch. The WAR ON TERROR is forever." - Pro

Only if you leftists have your way. You don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to fighting wars.
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Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 02:13 PM        What?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
Talking down the president on forign soil at a time of war is Un-American. .

Why does the freedom to criticize our leaders end with the start of a war? Bush isn't God. He is a human being and he can make mistakes, mistakes that could be globally catastrophic. I'm sure he means well, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And what is wrong with pointing out the negative aspects of our nation? Pointing out a problem is the first step to fixing it. Why must we sing the praises of America on this board? It accomplishes nothing.
And furthermore, if we limit free speech because of the war on terror (which is nothing more than a metaphor, like the war on drugs, the war on poverty, etc), then we are doing exactly what the terrorists want: giving into fear.

"Those who are willing to trade away their freedom for saftey deserve neither freedom nor saftey."-Benjamin Franklin

If a liberal president was currently in office, would you, a conservative, still agree that we must not criticize our leaders during time of war?

And furthermore, simply because I oppose the war doesn't mean that I think we should do nothing about Iraq. Bush makes it sound as though we have only the choices of 1. war or 2. nothing. He has not considered other options.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 03:56 PM       
Max, don't you realize that your president is unquestionable, untouchable and infallible during war time!? Hold off your CRAZY comments until he's once again mortal. Which is right after he's cleansed the world of terrorism.

Quote:
Only if you leftists have your way. You don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to fighting wars.
Then you'll be pleased to know the leftists aren't the ones fighting this war.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 04:06 PM       
In the Navy, whenever we disembarked at a foreign port, we were always told that we are representatives of the United States, and to behave accordingly. We seldom did, but regardless, Naldo has a valid point.

It's one thing to stand in opposition to our Government here at home. We not only have the right to do so, we have an obligation. The People were meant to be the ultimate check and balance of the Government.

However, when one is abroad, things change. Regardless of your personal objections, you don't do what she did. I'm not saying she should advocate Bush, his administration, or his unconstitutional war, but I am saying you don't openly denounce it on a public forum. Not unless you are planning on changing your citizenship.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 06:07 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
However, when one is abroad, things change. Regardless of your personal objections, you don't do what she did. I'm not saying she should advocate Bush, his administration, or his unconstitutional war, but I am saying you don't openly denounce it on a public forum. Not unless you are planning on changing your citizenship.
Jeesh! I agree with you on that.

Meanwhile, if we're here in the good ol' U.S. of A, does that mean we can only not like the president in anonymous polls? I just find it odd that in an open forum, people will shout you down with a nationalistic fervor but when the secret polls are revealed, his popularity points were and still are down on the issue of the upcoming war. Seems strange that the numbers don't match ... hmmm. Doesn't it show a little more moral fiber to openly express your opinions? Oh, well, my opinions are back in the closet once the war starts. I won't bad mouth the troops during the war or upon their return. It's not their fault and they deserve my support.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 07:23 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
Talking down the president on forign soil at a time of war is Un-American.
How often did you criticize Clinton during Desert Fox, or during the bombings of Yugoslavia??? You're a hypocrite and you know it.

On foreign soil, domestic soil, furtilized soil. When you go abroad you are an American, and it's your responsibility to act as one wherever you are. Remaining critical of ONE branch of our THREE branch government is not only acceptable, it's our duty.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 08:17 PM       
Kelly, fundamentally, the whole reason the SECRET polls don't match the Open Polls is because, to put it simply: If you were a leftist in a staunchly conservative neighborhood, all of them advocated the war to the point that they will kill anyone opposed to it themselves, and then Mr. Leftist comes along and blurts it out?

Essentially, you're talking about something bigger than hidden polls, you're talking about human nature, i.e. putting on two faces to protect yourself from whatever you need shielding from.

Case in point: I'm an atheist, but I live in Louisiana, which is of course a HUGELY fanatical Christian state. Do you think it'd be a good idea to go around telling these people that I don't think their God exists? Same idea.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 09:15 PM       
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How often did you criticize Clinton during Desert Fox, or during the bombings of Yugoslavia??? You're a hypocrite and you know it.
Hah! Nice one.
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Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 12:16 PM       
"Why does the freedom to criticize our leaders end with the start of a war?" Jeanette X

It doesn't.

"Why must we sing the praises of America on this board? It accomplishes nothing." - X

See. You are just anti-American. To you being balanced and showing the great accomplishments of this nation hurt your argument. You objective is to talk us down. Admit it.

"If a liberal president was currently in office, would you, a conservative, still agree that we must not criticize our leaders during time of war?"

Simply not.

"Then you'll be pleased to know the leftists aren't the ones fighting this war." - FS

Yes, Yes I am.

"How often did you criticize Clinton during Desert Fox, or during the bombings of Yugoslavia??? You're a hypocrite and you know it." - Kevin

No I'm not. You just made that up. Try another lie. You're about as accurate as a SCUD missile...........I'd like to see some proof if you dare....

"Hah! Nice one." - appointer

Hah! You just creamed in you pants over one of Kevin's lies. Let him try to prove it.

If he can, I will never post here again.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 12:41 PM       
Hinky. Shame on you. While as I've stated I think getting rid of your Dixie Chicks records for any reason other than their music is stupid, I don't 'hate' people doing it. Free speech is free speech, and It's one of my favorite American Freedoms. I endorse their right to not buy the Dixie Chicks Music.

"The ultimate display of freedom is capitalism."
-panty

I find that a very depressing statement. The 'Ultimate'? I find an awful lot of things about America more inspirational. I'd place it in the top ten, though, so don't get all uppity and say I hate what America stnds for. But theirs a reason we say "The pursuit of Hapiness" when the original phrase in it's place was "Property" I like property, too though, so don't get a rash.


"Well, the first thing people will notice is the fact that you are always so quick to focus on the negative aspects of what this country has done without stating the positive things we have accomplished. And you are always taking the postive and trying bring it down using 3rd rate conspiracy theories that nobody believes. Also, "averting doom" defined by you is economic despair and lots of dead American soldiers. "
Nalds.

While much tht you just said, particularly wht others make of my posts, is highly arguable, I'll note that you can't even put into words a concept "America Stands For" that I hate. Let me try to help you.

Are you saying "America stands for accentuating positive aspects of it's culture proportionately with negative in discussion." I think I may have missed that in civics class.

Start threads on Freedom, and you'll see where I agree with and embrace what America Stands for. Start threads on Bush, and you'll see where I disagree. I am often concerned with how America fail to live up to the Things it Stands for. I'm a big believer in actually doingt the Things you Stand For.

Perhaps you are saying "America Stands for not taking the postive and trying bring it down using 3rd rate conspiracy theories that nobody believes."

Well, since I belive them, that's somebody. A lot of people believe them. I'm really a centrist as far as conspiracy theory goes. Wasn't it you who posted the article on some secret force being behind peace protests? I'm not accusing you, it might have been someone else. In any case, I think "America stands for a healthy skeptecism where government is concerned". I think that's why we have three branches of govrnments, checks and balances, the vote, a free press, freedom of speech etc. I imagine you find my tack depressing, but can't recall any great merican writing embracing the concept "America stands for not being a bummer". Perhaps, perhaps, America stands for more optomism than I generally express, but I think that would be way down on the list of what it stands for, near dressing more neatly than I tend to.

Your last charge might be worded "America stands for not defining "averting doom" as economic despair and lots of dead American soldiers. "

You might well have something there, if indeed that was what I did. I don't embrace a bad economy (which I suffer in along with you) or dead soldiers any more than I assume you embrace the concept of dead Iraqi children. I assume, though, that you see some number of dead iraqi children as a regretable, tragic inevitability on the road to a safer world. I see W not getting re-elected as a major step in averting World War III. That's not a conspiracy theory, as I don't think it's what he wants. It is my politucal judgement, to which I'm entitled. It is my sincere hope that the American people will be moved by multiple factors to unseat him, as they did his father. It is my sincere hope that this could and will happen without ANY deaths (too late for that already) as I too pray for Iraqis and Americans and British and all human beings. I imagine you think I pray incorrectly, or doubt my prayers even count as such, but I think "America stands for Freedom of Religion". I find the entire situation tragic. I feel this is a conflict between two individual men, and I think history and God will judge them both harshly for draggng so many innocents into the fray with them. It causes me great unhapiness that I believe Bush will not loose the next election if this stage of our new foreign policy comes with little cost to America. For you too construe this as an active desire for people to suffer, especially while endorsing war, shows to me a shocking lack of perspective.

While I disagree with you on almost everything, I am capable of seeing your political viewpoint. I do not beieve you are capable of acknowledging the existence of mine, let alone seeing it. This is the nature of our respective boxes.

I would suggest that your inability to express clearly what America Stand For that you think I hate stems not so much from your skill with words as the fact that your gut feelings about me and what I do or do not hate cannot be stated as a Hatred of American Ideals. At one time in our history, the government 'stood for' the holding of slaves as the 'ultimate' expression of Capitalism. Did abolitionists 'hate' what 'America' stood for?

If you cannot put it into words, it may be because it isn't true.

It could be because it's a lie.

I have my own interpretation of what it means to be an American. It's based on history and the great documents of our founding fathers. When I believe we do not aspire to our better nature, I feel shame BECAUSE I love what America Stands For. You claim your understanding of the bible is legitimate becuase it is the divine word of God and not open to different interpretations. Do you feel the same way about our constitution, our rights, our freedoms? Is Patriotism a mark from God which can only be epxressed in ways clear to you?

And is it really so surprising I find you prideful, you who know what it means to be a real American?
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 01:17 PM       
Where to begin...

I guess to start with the Dixie Chick's statement over in Europe about President Bush. Now, this comment is within her rights of free speech to say it. She can pretty much say whatever she wants, as long as it does not constitute a threat against someone (and for that reason Hyde of the Pretenders needs a nice open-handed pimp slamp). But the comment shows her intelligence, however. Not necessarly in political affairs, but in the realm of common sence when it comes to her job.

Country music is mostly conserative, "fly over" country based, and Christian. To come out and say something about a EXTREMELY popular in a FOREGIN country is career suicide. So no wonder she is getting a bunch of crap. That is the PRICE and RESPONSABILITY of free speech, which it seems a LOT of people can't comprehend. The Bill of Rights protects your rights, not your feelings.

Now, if this was a rock band doing this, the tide would be split. The younger, "sheeple" kids would believe anything a band like RATM or SOAD or any of the punk bands say because they label themselves as "outsiders" and "misunderstood". Now, these young kids don't know shit about politics, so they just go by what the celeberity says. The Cult of Celeberty at work. The older fans actually know most of these guys are full of shit, and would disagree with them. Once again free speech at work.

But to really tie it in, Free Speech is great. I am glad I am blessed to live in a country that never has been truly oppressed. I have friends and know of people that have lived under the foot of China, the U.S.S.R., N. Korea, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Zimbawae, and the other opressive countries. Now, to anyone that truly believes we are in some kind of horrible police state, especially these protestors and these whiners that just hate Bush because he is "Hitler", know this: I have sat down and spoke to Holocaust survivors and my grandfather helped liberate a concentration camp. If they had the strength, they would probably like nothing more than to knock your teeth through your asshole with their fist.


And to answer the about the protestors being under a different group without going on for too long: The World Workers Party has been seen and documented as supporting and funding International ANSWER. The World Workers Party is a Communist front. That has been documented. And frankly, I wouldn't piss on a WWP member if he/she/it was on fire.
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sspadowsky sspadowsky is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 01:39 PM       
Wow, you sure are a great big short-sighted asshole.

Don't you think that maybe folks who are protesting our current administration's actions are trying to PREVENT the establishment of a police state? It doesn't happen overnight. But if you compare the state of affairs now to those of, say, fifteen years ago, it's kind of scary. And by the time we realize how completely under the thumb of our government we are, it'll probably be too late to do anything about it.

For example, Nazi Germany didn't become what it was in a couple of weeks. It was a gradual, insidious process. A few rules imposed here, a few things outlawed there, over the course of several years.

I don't possess the temperament or patience of someone like Burbank, so I'm going to sum it up as quickly as I can before I get really fucking angry.

I'm paraphrasing George Carlin here, and I think it's a frighteningly accurate statement: "When fascism comes to prominence in America, it's not going to be wearing jackboots and uniforms. It's going to have a smiley face and be wearing sneakers with lihts in them."
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 01:53 PM       
Ronnie, I asked you a question. Stop avoiding it.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 02:07 PM       
Fascism is the most overused word-weapon in the liberal arsenal. It’s a big word they learned to try to compare Bush to Hitler (Hitler came to power because of socialism, idiot. Read books. Learn things.) which always fails.

I do not like the Patriot Act, before you try to bring that up. It's stupid and unnecessary. It infringes on my right to privacy and is close to legalized violations of the Constitution as you can get. We need to do the tasks that are necessary to protect our country, which might make the ivory-tower PC whiners upset. We may have to.... *GASP*.....

Profile Arab and Muslim suspicious persons

EEEK! That would just be the pits, huh? My grandfather's parents, even thought my grandfather was off to war, had their voting rights taken away, guns taken away, and were watched because they were Italians during WWII. Came close to a camp just like the Japanese as well.

But the whole thing about Bush turning America to a police state? Hog. Wash. Although since the Republicans started to control everything after the '02 elections, I have had to use my umbrella more to keep the blood from the crucified non-Christians from splashing on my clothes, and I have had to take my Jesus-allegiance pledges about 6 times a day. My buddy also disagreed with the speed of our tax cuts and he we dragged away by the XX, the double-crossed special elite strike force that Bush has made for the dissenters.
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sspadowsky sspadowsky is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 02:16 PM       
I see you're part of the "American okey-dokey." You're absolutely right, dude. No need for vigilance. No need to worry. The government's got it all under control.

Sorry, I've got to get back to watching the fireworks show on the Fox News Channel. USA! USA! USA!
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