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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Aug 30th, 2004, 09:32 PM        Social Advances in the Middle East
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../29/do2903.xml

Death and the maiden in Iran
By Alasdair Palmer
(Filed: 29/08/2004)


Atefeh Rajabi appears to have been a fairly normal 16-year-old: sulky, disobedient, and eager to have sex. In London, those attributes earn lectures from parents and teachers on the importance of acting responsibly and not being offensive. In the city of Neka in Iran, where Atefeh Rajabi comes from, they get you hauled up in front of a judge.

Atefeh's typical teenage behaviour meant that she was charged and found guilty of "acts incompatible with chastity". The judge in the Islamic court ruled that the appropriate penalty was death. That's right: death. Her sentence was confirmed by Iran's Supreme Court.

Two weeks ago, on August 15, the 16-year-old girl was hung from a crane in the main square of Neka, in full public view, in order to keep "society safe from acts against public morality".

Sharia law, the Islamic code which is supposed to govern punishments in Iran, states that unmarried people who have sex should be punished with 100 lashes. That was the chastisement meted out to the single man with whom Atefeh was accused of "committing acts incompatible with chastity".

Married women who have sexual relations with someone who is not their husband should, according to Sharia, be stoned to death - although Iran's chief justice, apparently revolted by the cruelty of pelting women with rocks, ruled two years ago that stonings should be abandoned.

Hanging is not prescribed for either category of transgressor. So what was the judge (one Haji Rezaie) doing sentencing an "unchaste" 16-year-old to hang? He said that she had a "sharp tongue" and had "undressed in court".

It seems that all she did was to take off her headscarf and insist that she was the victim of an older man's advances: but even if she had stripped naked and called the judge a fat ignorant bastard, those actions would hardly merit death, even under Islamic law. Nevertheless, the judge was so outraged that he decided he would personally put the noose round the child's neck.

That disgraceful and disgusting "punishment" has excited a great deal of condemnation in Iran among the reformists. As far as I can see, it has not produced any comment here. Amnesty International issued a statement expressing outrage at the execution (the tenth of a child in Iran since 1990) - but no British newspaper or television station has reported this.

Why not? The two extremes of pro- and anti-Muslim sentiment in Britain are now united in not expecting even the most minimal ethical standards from Islamic countries such as Iran: the pros because they think that Islamic laws should not be criticised for fear of giving offence; the antis because they think all Muslims are just a bunch of irredeemable barbarians.

Those two extreme views have infected media coverage. What would be headline news if it happened in America (can you imagine the response if a 16-year-old girl was executed for having sex in Texas?) is, because it happens in an Islamic state, apparently too banal to count.

That attitude guarantees that more children will suffer Atefeh's fate. Of course, it suits our Government - which is pushing for greater trade links with our new-found ally, Iran - just fine if people think that criticism of Islamic judges is inappropriate because standards are different. But respecting Islam does not require accepting the judicial murder of 16-year-olds (or indeed anyone, of any age) for having sex. That's wrong wherever it happens. We need a Government, and a press, that says so.
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Old Aug 30th, 2004, 11:47 PM       
And the people rejoiced
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 07:50 AM       
I knew the title of this thread was a joke.

The only advanced culture half of the Middle East ever gets is when foreign troops are sent in.

Oh, and those fancy Western rifles they seem to be happy to use even though the West is evil.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 09:55 AM       
Soviet-era Kaleshnikovs can be considered Eastern, and places like Iran make their own.


I actually thought this thread was going to be all about the Afghan revolution. :/ I shouldn't get my hopes up.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 12:40 PM       
bah, there hasn't been a socially "advanced" Islamic country since the Ottoman Empire.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 12:54 PM       
I was about to preface this with a few words about not meaning to offend any religious-minded readers, but fuck that. Anyone who buys into any of that fundamentalist crap is a savage. The novelist Jim Harrison once said: "Once you remove the social nicities from even a mainstream religion, you're not too far removed from the tom toms."
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 12:56 PM       
I was about to preface this with a few words about not meaning to offend any religious-minded readers, but fuck that. Anyone who buys into any of that fundamentalist crap is a savage. The novelist Jim Harrison once said: "Once you remove the social nicities from even a mainstream religion, you're not too far removed from the tom toms."
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 12:56 PM       
I was about to preface this with a few words about not meaning to offend any religious-minded readers, but fuck that. Anyone who buys into any of that fundamentalist crap is a savage. The novelist Jim Harrison once said: "Once you remove the social nicities from even a mainstream religion, you're not too far removed from the tom toms."
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 12:59 PM       
What happened? I only posted one time. I went into edit mode, but didn't change anything.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 01:06 PM       
Well, I certainly think that only two of those posts would have been insufficient.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 01:14 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Soviet-era Kaleshnikovs can be considered Eastern, and places like Iran make their own.
You're right.

Point still being, the most advanced things in a lot of those areas are the methods of killing people. What a happy world.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 01:16 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype
bah, there hasn't been a socially "advanced" Islamic country since the Ottoman Empire.
I think it's amusing that the Islamic world was actually ahead of the West for many years. And then they just stopped developing and stayed where they were in the 15th or 16th century.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 02:06 PM       
I think it's depressing.
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Old Aug 31st, 2004, 03:37 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perndog
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype
bah, there hasn't been a socially "advanced" Islamic country since the Ottoman Empire.
I think it's amusing that the Islamic world was actually ahead of the West for many years. And then they just stopped developing and stayed where they were in the 15th or 16th century.
exactly. take the Mameluks, for example. the might of their military was uncontested throughout the region, but by the time the Caliph fell, they had been reduced to calling the Osmans cowards for using firearms.

the West may be decadent, but it's still better than any of the alternatives.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 12:46 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype
bah, there hasn't been a socially "advanced" Islamic country since the Ottoman Empire.
Socially advanced Islamic country is an oxymoron. But as far as middle eastern countries go, at least some have started on the road to change before getting brutaly thrown back. I am of course refering to Afghanistan 1979.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 07:56 PM       
I read somewhere that, when compared to Christianity, Islam is currently in its Dark Age, characterized by a lot of fundamentalist, xenophobic sabre-rattling. Even just a century ago, Arabs had one of the most enlightened and open-minded cultures in the world. One of the only reasons why we still have copies of classical literature is because of Arabian scribes.

It just seems like once they reached a certain point, it was as if they just stopped everything and stuck their heads in the sand.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 08:26 PM       
Quote:
It just seems like once they reached a certain point, it was as if they just stopped everything and stuck their heads in the sand.
Hasn't the same thing happened here with Christianity? If I'm not mistaken these fundamentalist groups began in the American south in the 1920s. They're stronger today than ever. In southern California they're everywhere you look. I was reading one of Joan Didion's collections of essays the other day. In one she pointed out that fundamentalist churches tend to thrive in places like Los Angeles, where Western culture has its weakest hold. In uncertain times, in the absence of tradition or education people grab whatever makes them feel better-- fanatical religious beliefs, heroin, whatever.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 09:53 PM       
However, despite the growth of fundamentalist Christianity, the West is still developing as rapidly as ever.

So no, the same thing isn't happening at all, and I can confidently state that you didn't actually get the topic.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 10:11 PM       
The difference is that fundamentalists, waxing as they are, still represent only a minority of Christians in general. Most of the advanced West comprises only Sunday-morning Christians or the religiously indifferent, whereas Islam permeates just about every facet of Arab society.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 10:15 PM       
Quote:
However, despite the growth of fundamentalist Christianity, the West is still developing as rapidly as ever.
Keep watching.

Quote:
The difference is that fundamentalists, waxing as they are, still represent only a minority of Christians in general.
Is that still true? I'll look it up, but I seem to recall that mainstream Protestant denominations, such as the Episcopal and Luthern churches were in the minority in America now.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 10:19 PM       
And as the fundamentalist percentage rises, so does the atheist/agnostic share to offset it.

Kinda like the Renaissance. On one hand, you had the secularists multiplying like flies and on the other hand, you had the Church doing its damnedest to keep the fear of God in people.

I expect it all to balance out in the end, as always.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 10:26 PM       
For the record, Protestantism is on the recline, as per Time Magazine's late August edition.
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Old Sep 1st, 2004, 10:32 PM       
I posted an article put out by my school several weeks ago about the decline of the Protestant majority. DON'T MAKE ME DO IT AGAIN.
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Old Sep 2nd, 2004, 09:52 PM       
I read that they are considering allowing Muslims in some Candian province to use Sharia law because the Jews are allowed to use theres relgious law system. I'm sure it wouldn't be the Sharia law of the Middle East but its still a little strange considering how bad the current Sharia law is praticed.
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