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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 01:43 PM        POLICE FIRE RUBBER BULLETS AT PROTESTERS
I post this with a caution, this story is less than an hour old and while domestic stories can be verified more quickly than foreign, I still thought this was worth posting.

Rubber Bullets Used Against Oakland War Protesters
57 minutes ago


OAKLAND, Calif. (Reuters) - Police fired rubber bullets on Monday against hundreds of anti-war protesters blocking a road near Oakland's port, witnesses and officials said.

Local media reported several longshoremen were injured in what is believed to be the first police use of rubber bullets against demonstrators since President Bush launched a war aimed at toppling Iraqi President Saddam Hussein on March 19.

Demonstrators were seeking to block access to American President Lines, a shipping company they claimed was profiting from the war in Iraq . Police at the scene said they used two types of rubber bullets to disperse about 750 protesters and that some arrests were made.




Certainly one expects the Police to arrest people who engage in civil dissobedience, but to fire on them? Rubber bullets have been found to be potentially lethal. I think this is an appauling disturbing overreaction. I await stories detailing what motivated the shooting (crowd dispersal after three warnings is the only reason given to date, the were blocking access to a shipping business), what the extent of the injuries were and who authorized the use of Rubber Bullets and projectile "bean Bags" as acceptable crowd control.

If there are any interested amateur researchers out there with more time than I, I'd also be interested to know when the last time US police used rubber bullets to disperse a crowd. My guess is this is the first time since kent state a crowd was fired upon to prevent a riot which had yet to take place. Pre-emption comes home.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 02:03 PM       
I heard there were only 300 protestors, and the police were breaking up altercations between the long shore men and the protestors. I guess that means they were shooting at them to protect them from the long shore men? It sounds odd to me for an action to target the day to day business of a company that just MIGHT bennefit from the war. These people must really trust whatever news source they're getting their info from. Jeez. Oakland police are nuts anyway, and they have a long history of being off their rocker that goes waaaaaaay back.

LAPD use rubber bullets all the time. Portland police just used them recently to stop people from spray painting anti-Bush grafiti.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 02:42 PM       
Well jeeez. It's not like they were lead. Those damn treehuggers just bruise easily.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 03:03 PM       
Yup, let's go to the docks during a high alert and attack union workers. IN OAKLAND. Sounds brrrrrrrrrilliant. If you wanna get your head cracked and end up on cable news maybe.

Anyone know their "peoples resistance history"? This is a very weighted move, either made out of ignorance or disrespect....and neither of those options have anything to do with treehugging.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 03:28 PM       
Fucking sissies got what they deserved. Keep the wussy protesting in your living room where it belongs, you little girls.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 04:36 PM       
The article I read was completely unclear as to who's side the longshoremen were on, and it's a more difficult call than it at first appears. Organized labor has officially come out against the war, though I'm sure lots of individaul longshoremen are for it, especially if you try to close their worksite. On the other other hand, I douybt strongly they have had their union gauranteed pay docked if they were delayed due to a protest.

These are all questions any good article would address, which speaks to what passes for journalism these days.

Abcdzxx; are you from Portland, Or. I lived there about 20 years ago during a banner period of police brutality. There was also a scandal involving the police making a habbit of leaving dead possums on the back steps of Soul Food Restaurants.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 04:49 PM       
Okay rather then by cryptic I'll elaborate on what I'm talking about...
Oakland obviously used to be primarly a poor inner city working class population.... so taking activism back to these shipyards recalls the creation of the Black Panthers, a hundred years of labor riots, and a whole mess of other issues. The Navy used to dominate these shipyards, which was another reason why it was such a target for attention during Vietnam, etc. but it still remains one of our 29 major Pacific ports.

So also consider this...who are they hurting by this action? The working class longshoremen embroiled in bitter contract disputes with the Pacific Maritime Association, that's who. The International Longshore and Wharehouse Union port workers have been trying to save their jobs from Bush's INS reforms becuase of post 9/11 security risks. Bush even invoked the Taft Hartley act to prevent them from striking. Any problems down there and it's likely they'll lose certain jobs to the National Gaurd. Today the men had to walk off the job... they don't like being shot at either.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 04:58 PM       
burbank - not from portland but i like soul food and opposums.


Police Open Fire At Oakland Anti-War Protest
Longshoremen Injured
(ABC7)Apr. 7 (AP) — Police opened fire Monday morning with wooden dowels, "sting balls" and other non-lethal weapons at anti-war protesters outside the Port of Oakland, injuring at least a dozen demonstrators and six longshoremen standing nearby.

Most of the 500 demonstrators at the port were dispersed peacefully, but police opened fire at two gates when protesters refused to move. The longshoremen, pinned against a fence, were caught in the crossfire.

The port protest was one of several anti-war demonstrations Monday in the San Francisco Bay area. Twelve people were arrested at the Concord Naval Weapons Station, and seven were arrested after temporarily blocking an off-ramp from Interstate 280 in San Francisco.
The Rev. Lee Williamson of Hayward knelt quietly in prayer at the foot of one officer at the naval weapons station.
"I think it's necessary to come to places that continue to fuel death and destruction," Williamson said. "I think the whole thing is immoral from the get-go."
About 50 medical students, doctors and teachers demonstrated for two hours in front of Sen. Dianne Feinstein's office in San Francisco. In Sunnyvale, demonstrators planned to present a letter to Lockheed Martin opposing the use of that company's products in the war.
And in Sacramento, nine anti-war protesters were arrested when they blocked the entrance to the federal building.
About 200 of the port demonstrators later marched to the federal building in Oakland, blocking a street and chanting: "Out of the office and into the streets! U.S. out of the Middle East!" They were joined by Oakland City Council members Jane Bruner and Jean Quan.
"They should not have been using the wooden bullets," Bruner said. "Given what's happening in the world today, we're going to be seeing more of this. And we should be prepared to handle it."
Demonstrators said it was the first time they had been fired upon since anti-war protests started in the San Francisco Bay area more than two weeks ago.
Liz Highleyman, a San Francisco writer who has been at many of the major protests across the country in recent years, said the police response reminded her of the World Trade Organization riots in Seattle four years ago.
"This is a level of injury as high as I've seen anywhere since Seattle in 1999," she said.
Protesters said they targeted the Port of Oakland because at least one of the companies there, APL, is handling war supplies.
APL spokesman Jerry Drelling declined to discuss the shipping company's military contracts. But he confirmed that APL participates in the U.S Department of Transportation's Maritime Security Program that pays commercial shipping lines for the right to take over their vessels during war.
Oakland police said at least 24 people were arrested at the port.
"Some people were blocking port property and the port authorities asked us to move them off," said Deputy Police Chief Patrick Haw. "Police moved aggressively against crowds because some people threw rocks and big iron bolts at officers."
Police spokeswoman Danielle Ashford said officers fired bean-bag rounds and wooden dowels. They also used sting balls, which send out a spray of BB-sized rubber pellets and a cloud of tear gas.
"When they hit you, it feels like a bee sting," Haw said.
Six longshoremen were treated by paramedics, as were at least a dozen protesters — some of whom had bloody welts the size of a silver dollar.
"I was standing as far back as I could," said longshoremen Kevin Wilson. "It was very scary. All of that force wasn't necessary."
Steve Stallone, spokesman for the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, said most of the dockworkers went back to work after the protesters left. A few were too shaken up to return.
He said a union arbitrator was evaluating the situation, trying to determine whether the longshoremen should cross the protesters' picket line and go to work, when police started firing.
"They didn't care," he said. "They just attacked the picket line. They declared it an illegal assembly and gave people two minutes to disperse. The police did not move to arrest anyone, they just started shooting."
The San Francisco Bay area has been the site of some of the biggest and most boisterous anti-war protests in the country. In the first few days after the war began, there were more than 2,000 arrests when demonstrators blocked downtown streets and tried to seize control of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 04:59 PM       
I think I'm inclined to agree with you that the choice of the protest location was very poor and am more curious than ever what factions (both pro and con) played what role in the decision. If it was chosen solely for it's historical resonance, that's stupid and counter productive. Perhaps tomorrows paper will shed more light about what actually took place.

As far as the use of rubber bullets goes, and the use of them by police:

I'm in favor of them when the alternative is live ammo.

Using them to disperse crowds and break up fights strikes me as... well, stupid, counterproductive and down right dangerous.
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 10:54 PM       
I think the rubber pellets was a good idea at that moment. They were protesting in the wrong spot, and the police told them to move. I think that got what they deserved. They did have another alternative, BEANBAGS!
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 11:04 PM       
I think maybe I missed it in ABC's article, but I'm still confused by the situation. Were there confrontations between the dock workers and the protestors, or was it a case of wrong place, wrong time for the longshore men...?
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 11:23 PM       
A friend of mine was shot in the arm with one when he stepped onto (or was it off? ) the curb when protesting in DC. :/
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:04 AM       
My understanding of it was that the protestors were trying to shut down business (much the same way they tried to do with Bechtel... a much better target if you ask me*) and there were altercations with the longshoremen as they prevented them from going to work. These are old retired Navy docks, so when companys sign on to use them they agree that they'll assist the government in times of war. As far as I know, this wasn't a Haliburton type company they targetted. When cops came to break it up the dock workers got caught in the middle and pinned. The article I posted, and a few others describe wood bullets (???). I've seen pictures posted around the web of injuries from these shots and they look fucking BAD. Fox News had footage of police aiming rifles RIGHT AT the crowd and just shooting people point blank in their backs. They must have been bad shots though because nobody seemed to be dropping from a hit.

What disturbs me about this most is knowing that the police get overtime for this kind of shit, and they're on tax payers salary...but a lot of these anarchists are professionals too, and they're earning a salary for these type of actions...so it's like paid thugs battling in the name of "peace". What the fuck?

(*Bechtel build nuclear reactors around the world, and mainly staffs foriegn nationals, predominantly from Middle Eastern countries. They're also closely tied to the Reagan and Bush presidencys. Oh and they're currently ruining Boston)
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:13 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
but a lot of these anarchists are professionals too, and they're earning a salary for these type of actions...so it's like paid thugs battling in the name of "peace". What the fuck?
Such as who? Not to say you're wrong, I'djust be interested to know.....

The articles I have read on this don't seem to imply confrontation, but regardless, I certainly don't think the protestors went there to target the longshore men (that would be asinine).
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:20 AM       


Ouch.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:21 AM       
WOW.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:23 AM       


Just or unjust their fight, this is excessive by any standard.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:28 AM       


Aren't they supposed to be aiming at the ground?
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:34 AM        Yes, and yes.
The protestors probably could have choosen a better way/place to voice their opinions. Agreed.

The use of rubber and wooden bullets was way too much. Agreed.

Having spent a few years in a law enforcement type environment, mind you a military one, the guiding principle is typically using a force ladder so to speak. That is, you meet the threat with the next level of higher force to resolve the situation. Seems to me like they skipped a few rungs.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 01:03 AM       
Criminy! Rubber bullets are nasty!

Did the protestors actually commit any violent acts to warrant use of force?
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 01:45 AM       
OAKTOWN KNOWS HOW TO PARTAY!!!

I don't have a specific contact I can recommend to you for anarchist employment. I grew up in San Francisco, where it's common knowledge that there are professional anarchists living off various grants, and non-profit covers or scamming landlords through rent control laws to stickit to the maaaan. You'd go over to their homes and the backyards would be filled with various signs for various causes. You'd hear stories about kids with year round jobs organizing the major actions against the WTO etc. or taking part in some form of grassroot political action for a living. If you're ever in SF and have a chance to watch the city supervisors open sessions on live TV you would see what I meant.... lines and lines of "activists" and "concerned citizens" introducing themselves and the makeshift organizations they represented... most of which you get the feeling they are the sole members of....this is their declared occupation. You meet people at parties and they introduce themselves as "political activists". You'd go to teacher parent night at school and find out your friends dad was running some freaky socialist newspaper out of his basement for a living. They had to rip up the panhandle in Golden Gate park because it was becoming over populated with people sleeping there, and living off the soup at Food Not Bombs. The civic center outside of City Hall was a tent city of politicaly active homeless people that refused to move. I'm talking high end camping gear tents. So yeah, there are pro-anarchists.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 11:18 AM       
I guess those people just had to learn the hard way not to attack police and break the law.

Did you know that they were also trying to stop shipments that were going to our troops over seas?


That got just what they deserved.....and I hope we see more of it.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 11:57 AM       
The degree to which you are a callous son of a bitch never ceases to amaze me. Post any reporting which describes the portesters as "Attacking" police. Look at the photo of the arms the police had at their disposal and the picture of that girls face and tell me her attack was credible enough to warrant that reponse.

I have no idea wether that port was sending supplies to our forces or not, but post your evidence.

When Jesus said "Turn the other cheek" do you supose he only said that because the rubber bullet had not yet been invented? Do you favor a police state where disobeying direct order from an officer results in that kind of injury?

Can you not imagine any circumstance happening in America where YOU might not find civil disobedience warranted? How would you feel about those wounds on your face?

Here are the only two questions I'm posing I really want you to answer. On several occasions, anti abortion protesters have been arrested for trespassing because they would not disperse when the polcie ordered them to. If the police fired rubber bullets and wounded a young woman the way the one on the picture was, would you respond

"I guess those people just had to learn the hard way not to attack police and break the law. "

And if that girl had gotten up and still refused to move, would it have been alright to kill her so that "Those people" ie. American citiizens
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 12:11 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
I guess those people just had to learn the hard way not to attack police and break the law.

Did you know that they were also trying to stop shipments that were going to our troops over seas?


That got just what they deserved.....and I hope we see more of it.
YOU'RE RIGHT, THOSE LONGSHOREMEN SOB's GOT WHAT THEY DESERVE, THAT'LL TEACH THEM FOR BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME!

Max is right. You really are an empty individual.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 02:29 PM       
Congratulations, Naldo. this is really a new low for you. I once more think less of you than Vince.

YOU HEAR THAT, VINCE? YOU NEED TO SUCK MORE TO IMPRESS ME NOW!
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