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  #51  
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 10:00 AM       
some of my best friends, that i still talk to today, are people that i was in love with at one point in my life. i wouldn't give that up for anything...as a matter of fact, i need to work on getting one of them back into my life.
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 12:05 PM       
That doesn't prove shit. Oh, the boys you used to be with based on delusions that love is real are still your friends. That really proves love is real.

I'm asking you to give me actual evidence that love is a real thing. Not your little stories about boyfriends who stuck around to be treated like shit by you with no fucking as consolation.
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 12:43 PM        Evidence - Shit

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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 12:56 PM       
What the fuck is that, butter and beef jerky?
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 06:22 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesman
I'm asking you to give me actual evidence that love is a real thing.
I love my friends, as I have stated before. Sure, you say, it's not romantic, but it doesn't matter. It's still love, we're talking about love, and I am telling you I love them and it is real. It counts. If you disagree you should have specified "romantic love". But then, how can one type of love be real and another not?

Jamesman, how can you talk shit about it when you haven't even EXPERIENCED it? I mean, I'll admit, sometimes I get in a pissy mood and I talk trash about it too, but the fact is, I have never BEEN in love, so how can I even pretend to know what it's like?

I have a lot of love in me, and I have a lot of capacity for love. I can feel it, I just haven't really had the chance to use it much yet, at least in a romantic sense.
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 07:32 PM       
Considering the original context of the word's use in this thread, I figured the romantic part was a given. But OK. I mean romantice love. That kind of love that gets your willy singing and your jeans steaming. In other words, the love that is just a figment of our imagination, because we'd hate to accept the truth that we were born, will live, and will die alone. Just like death. We are so afraid of death that we put all out faith into some fictional concept of an afterlife or reincarnation, when the truth is everything about us will vanish. Our minds and conscious will just zap out of function. You won't even know you're dead, because you'll cease to exist. No floating foggy ghost, no coming back as another person, no floating into the clouds to live in luxury beside "God."

And you're right, Proto. I haven't experienced love. The reason being that love doesn't exist. I can't experience something that isn't real. It's that simple. Sure, there were times that I thought I cared about people, but that was because I was naive. Now, I can accept what we are, and I'm much happier now than I ever was falling victim to a fantasy land of happiness of gumdrops, and having someone to "love" forever, until you go into the afterlife. It's all incredibly stupid.
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 07:37 PM       
Have you ever actually seen a ghost before? Please put your reply as a question.
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 08:10 PM       
Jamesman: How do you deal with the thought of oblivion? I have the same opinion on what occurs after death, but when I confront the idea about eternal non-existance I become overwhelmingly sad.

This isn't the same kind of sad you get when a relative dies, or when your girlfrined dumps you, or you lose your job. This is an indescribable unbelievably horrifying depression that makes my blood run cold.

Usually turning on the T.V really quick or distracting my mind with pleasant thoughts can remedy the problem, but sometimes I just can't avoid it. How can you possibly deal with the reality of never getting to experience life ever again? That for the remainder of all existance you will never "be"?
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 08:10 PM       
Quote:
I mean romantice love. That kind of love that gets your willy singing and your jeans steaming. In other words, the love that is just a figment of our imagination, because we'd hate to accept the truth that we were born, will live, and will die alone.
Just because we die alone doesn't mean we can't feel love for someone. It's not a "figment of our imagination" because we actually feel it, it actually exists within our bodies and mind. I accept I will die, but I don't accept that love doesn't exist.
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 08:15 PM       
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because we actually feel it, it actually exists within our bodies and mind.
There are many of things in this world that can fool your mind into thinking something's real. So much so that you can actually feel it and think it exists. LSD is a good example.

Just because you can be hypnotized to fool your perspective doesn't mean that it's real. Try again.
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Old Feb 20th, 2003, 11:28 PM       
horror movies make you feel scared. love doesn't exist. well. romantic love doesn't.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 12:06 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesman
Considering the original context of the word's use in this thread, I figured the romantic part was a given. But OK. I mean romantice love. That kind of love that gets your willy singing and your jeans steaming. In other words, the love that is just a figment of our imagination, because we'd hate to accept the truth that we were born, will live, and will die alone.
Sounds to me like you're just bitter because you see what other people have, and you have thus far failed to achieve it for yourself. I mean no disrespect to you OR wreck, as I like you both, but you both come across as desperately bitter in your attitude towards love. The whole "oh, it hasn't happened to me so it must not be real" schtick. You think I haven't been there? Oh, I've been there. But I outgrew it. I still have never experienced romantic love to this day, and maybe I never will. But I've finally put the childish "if I can't have the toy I want no one can" whining aside. Because that's EXACTLY what you're doing. You're trying to say that if YOU haven't felt it, then it isn't real for ANYONE. That's bullshit. I have friends who are in love. Do I KNOW for sure that they are? No, but I believe it, because they act that way. They display it with everything they do. I don't know their heart, but I know what I can see plainly in front of me with my own eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesman
Just like death. We are so afraid of death that we put all out faith into some fictional concept of an afterlife or reincarnation, when the truth is everything about us will vanish. Our minds and conscious will just zap out of function. You won't even know you're dead, because you'll cease to exist. No floating foggy ghost, no coming back as another person, no floating into the clouds to live in luxury beside "God."
So I take it you've died before, Jamesman? You seem pretty sure of yourself here. Personally? I believe in God, and I believe in the afterlife. But to say there IS or ISN'T an afterlife for CERTAIN is to willfully embrace ignorance. I won't say you're right, or that I'm right. How can either of us know for certain? It would be arrogant and foolish to suggest that we do. I accept the POSSIBILITY that I could be wrong. I leave myself open to new ideas. Can you do the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesman
And you're right, Proto. I haven't experienced love. The reason being that love doesn't exist. I can't experience something that isn't real. It's that simple.
And yet there are apparently millions of others that CAN experience it. And millions of others that experience God and a belief in the afterlife as well. All of these things "don't exist" to you, but can you deny that people are "experiencing" them, even if what they are experiencing is nothing more than a belief IN them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesman
Sure, there were times that I thought I cared about people, but that was because I was naive. Now, I can accept what we are, and I'm much happier now than I ever was falling victim to a fantasy land of happiness of gumdrops, and having someone to "love" forever, until you go into the afterlife. It's all incredibly stupid.
Translation? I'm hurting and lonely and I need a girlfriend. You know how I know that's what all that really means? Because I've said it myself more than my share of times, too. But looking back on myself, and looking at this now, it all seems really fucking silly to me. That is NOTHING more than bitterness talking, that's all.

And Wreck...did we or did we not talk for hours upon hours on AIM over the love you felt over a particular girl roughly a year ago? Was that just my imagination, or have you just become so insanely bitter that you deny the existence of the thing you used to yearn for more than anything?

The fact that I have turned around and now believe in this thing that I have never personally experienced, which you so emphatically suggest does not exist in the first place, either makes a strong point for the argument that it is a real and powerful thing...or I'm the biggest idiot ever.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 12:35 AM       
you're not an idiot.

yeah for sure a year ago i believed in it. Or at least more so than now. However, i don't now. I totally agree that people think they are in love or something. But love is not some special state that exists above "liking" someone. Everyone i know who is in love has convinced themselves that they are, and most of them are sad. Our concept of love was made up a few hundred years ago. It hasn't always been like it is today. It doesn't exist because it is a big circle. How do you know you are in love with someone? Because you fell a certain way in response to him/her. But the media and society in general perpetuates the modern concept of romantic love so really you're just buying in like a mcdonalds commercial. Not that it is bad. I think everyone should experience it at least once. After that, you can make up your own mind. It is the most hilarious thing to see flirting couples all posturing to be cool and the fucking second they say the L word it all changes and they start to have less fun and more problems. Love is a really great ideal to have, but it just isn't gonna happen. If you really looked at couples up close you can see that a lot of times the only thing holding them together is just fear of being alone and that they both still fervently believe they are in love.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 12:53 AM       
Sometimes, though, all it takes is patience. Surely you didn't think that you'd meet the girl of your dreams right out of high school, did you? Hang in there, for Chrissakes.

Getting back to the original post: I DO believe in love at first sight. I didn't before I turned 20 years old, but I do now. I met the girl of my dreams and was instantly turned into so much testosterone soaked mush. It takes a special girl to turn a guy into mush without reaching into that mushy pocketbook ;D

All jokes aside, she felt the same way, and just to make sure we weren't fooling ourselves as far as the "love at first sight" thing goes, when we hit our big ol' anniversary, we talked about it and indeed agreed that what we had was love.

And of course, the daily boinkings (Sorry to throw that in, but I have to throw some testosterone in there SOMEHOW heh heh eh)

Final word? Love is real, but it's subjective. It will be more joyous to some and more heartwrenching to others (if life was fair, this wouldn't happen, but then death and all that wouldn't either.. oops, I'm talking metaphysics!)

I'd just like to think I got lucky. I never got cocky. I just consider it luck. Your luck will come through one day (spoken like a true optimist... I'm not doing much to keep my 'cynical asshole' rep in check) but well, everyone has their own opinions. This is mine. You might not agree with it, but bear this in mind:

"I might not agree with your opinion, but I will fight to the death to make sure it's heard"

So instead of blasting it, maybe you could think about it for awhile, eh? ::slaps self:: I'm not Canadian, why the hell did I say that?

Have fun, kiddies.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 02:26 AM       
when people say "you'll find love one day" it really makes me laugh. they are affirming themselves. It's such a mentally conceived notion. If it existed for real it shouldn't fucking matter who believes in it or not. However, everyone says that all the time. They need to believe that everyone will find it to keep their own faith in love. Too many people equate love with happiness and can't possibly imagine people being truly happy without love. They say "you'll find it some day" like that is the only way to be happy. Like it is the primary goal in life. idiocy! Buddhist monks don't have girlfriends! they are fucking pretty happy about life. When you say "Your luck will come through one day" you are just trying to have hope for the world when you should re-examine your whole concept of things. It pisses people off when they have "love" and all that crap and someone says of their own personal beliefs that they don't want to fall in love. How's that for "I might not agree with your opinion, but I will fight to the death to make sure it's heard"?
If you started being a huge asshole 24/7 with your girl, how long would she love you?
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 08:26 AM       
Proto, you don't know shit.

Bubba, when it comes to accepting the fact that my existence will simply "blank out" when I die, I don't. I try not to think about it, because death terrifies me. I've gone many a time sleepless and starving, because I can't stop thinking about it. So I just try to jerk off or punch myself in the face to make me think of something else.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 12:43 PM       
Jamesman & Wreck, you'll never find love, kill yourselves.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 12:55 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesman
Proto, you don't know shit.
I acknowledge that I have room to grow and that there is much I have to learn. Do you?

And I seem to remember, Jamesman, that just recently you posted a sad little sob story about how you cared about this one girl and got her all these gifts for Valentine's Day one year, but then she turned you down. Why would you have done all that, or told us about it, if you didn't believe in love? You were looking for pity and understanding in that thread, you weren't trying to say "HA HA, LOOK WHAT A YOUNG AND BRASH FOOL I WAS A YEAR AGO!"

No, you're not bitter at ALL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesman
Bubba, when it comes to accepting the fact that my existence will simply "blank out" when I die, I don't. I try not to think about it, because death terrifies me. I've gone many a time sleepless and starving, because I can't stop thinking about it. So I just try to jerk off or punch myself in the face to make me think of something else.
I'm not exactly wild about the idea of dying, but I don't fear death like this. Gee, maybe that's because I actually believe in an afterlife. Even if I'm wrong, I'll gladly go through life clinging to hopes that may be false rather than live in perpetual crippling fear.

I'd rather be an idiot who believes in something than a skeptic who believes in nothing.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 01:25 PM       
The problem is that once it occurs to you how unfounded and unsupported the idea of an afterlife is, it becomes practically impossible to force yourself into accepting religion. I would LOVE to believe that after life there is more. I would do anything to think that.

For example: If I was more happy believing that there was a unicorn in my refrigerator, could that desire alone truly make me BELIEVE it? No. I could claim to, but in my mind I'd know there is practically no chance of there being a unicorn in my fridge.

I'm seriously considering voluntary brainwashing. I'd rather live misguided and content that in fear of the gruesome truth.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 01:39 PM       
I'll avoid all the bullshit that's been posted on this topic, just to say that

Quote:
The ancient Greeks had 17 different words for "Love". Each has a slightly different literal translation for the "type" of love they express.

I don't think they'd make up 17 words for something that doesn't exist.
I'm greek, and I know my ancient greek very well, and there are no 17 words for Love. There are words for feelings, and for shades of them, like lust, awe, respect, liking but to say that 3 words expressing 3 degrees of lust are just another 3 words for love is silly. Check your info before making such strong claims.

And to answer your initial question, yes, just because my ancestors had many different words for a thing, that doesn't absolutely mean that thing was as valid as you'd like to think. Linguistics are governed by the rule of necessity, not by that of validity. The greeks were in a position to socialise a lot on the agora while the slaves laboured for them, so it's only natural that language would have evolved so as to include slight deviations from strong social terms such as love, so as people would communicate their thoughts better. They also had so many words for different ideals, and shades of them, that doesn't make any of them inherently more or less right.

Your argument is unfounded.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 02:12 PM       
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Originally Posted by wreckreation
If [love] existed for real it shouldn't fucking matter who believes in it or not. ... Too many people equate love with happiness and can't possibly imagine people being truly happy without love.
Actually, I agree with you.

I know love exists, as far as I'm concerned, and I feel I can verify that through the feelings/emotions I have for my wife.

But here's the thing. You guys are trying to prove/disprove whether or not an EMOTION exists.

Seriously. Think about that for a second. How can you prove or disprove the existence of an emotion?

I can say that pain doesn't exist. I can say that and back it up with proof. There are people born every day with a condition that leaves their nerve receptors unable to transmit tactile sensory experiences.

These people usually die early in life because they'll accidentally cut themselves and not realize it. This isn't science fiction, but documented Medical fact. For these people, there is no such thing as pain.

But, if you've experienced pain, then of course you'd be like "Bullshit, there is such a thing as pain" blah blah blah.

Truth is, you can't say love doesn't exist. You can say you don't KNOW love, haven't experienced it, haven't really seen it as far as you're concerned, but that's as far as you can run with it.

You can't disprove an emotion. You'd have to have the ability to experience everything every sentient being has ever felt since the beginning of time to confirm or deny the existence of love.

Now, if you can do that, not only will I believe you, but I'll be impressed.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 02:13 PM       
Couldn't fucking help it. It's hard to not comment on stuff like this.

Quote:
you people are always focusing on the bad side of stuff.

no wonder your lives suck.
I was thinking of replying to this in some sarcastic all-caps way like "WOW! GLOWBELLY'S GOT IT ALL FIGURED OUT! IT'S SO SIMPLE!!11!1!" but for the sake of the discussion, I'll refrain from that.

You make the mistake of assuming too much, and generalising much too much. But even if you're right, and seeing too much into things does stand to make your life bleak, or bleaker, there's a very important goal to be had, and that's awareness. Happiness, when based on uncertainty and occasional wellbeing doesn't last long anyway. It's momentarily euphoria. Not the most solid of foundations. If by being 'optimistic', by disregarding that terrible uncertainty that tells you that everything you believe in might be a social construction made so you can feel at ease, you're achieving that euphoria, I say the tradeoff isn't a good one, but hey, if you differ, more power to you.

But there are others that are willing to be a little more uncertain, risk a little more unease and maybe arrive at conclusions - no matter how stark- that are conclusions nevertheless. Those people shouldn't be treated with that generalising triviality that you have shown. Not everyone that claims that love is a social construction is a teenage goth (Also to you, Protoclown), and not everyone that desires knowledge over happiness is a depraved misery-craving pessimist.

I've thought I was in love in the past, and whereas I'm reluctant to degrade the feeling of that memory for selfish reasons, I must say I can see where those feelings stemmed from. There's no mystical unfathomable magic dust there, as I see it now. There's mainly lust, followed by respect, caring and a need for communication of a deeper level(hopefully). I cannot accept those feelings to be called Love though, even if they are said to be elements that make said emotion what it is, because Love is also something else besides an osmosis of those positive emotions; It is also a demand to some higher ethical reasoning that wants us to achieve some sort of 'completation' in finding a 'rightful soulmate'. That's, for me, completely unfounded and naive. It requires faith in some omnipresent objective definition of what's 'good' and what's 'bad', that also dictates which person is 'ment for you' that is simply unreasonable.

What I see, are people struggling to believe that they're special, and in doing that, shifting the burden of proof of that claim to the incomprehensible magic dust that is Love. That's bullshit. There's nothing so special in wanting to mate, and there's nothing special in wanting an understanding partner in that. There needs to be a demystification of that awesomenes that's supposedly Love, down to the bare level of atavistic tendencies. Why? Because this perpetuated lie about Love is hurting us more than helping us. It confuses people in it's absurdity, it dissapoints them, in it's unnatainable-ness (good god, there's no such word). It's much simpler, not to mention more logical to call for natural urges to mate when explaining the behaviour of the sexes, and also the communal urge to communicate and understand, when explaining the dialectic aspect of attraction, rather than to speak of hazy absurd terms like 'true love of one's life' and other fairytales.


So, I've arrived to the conclusion that Love is not only a notion, it's also an excuse. And there's no need for excuses. We already have enough problems with social interaction as it is. The process of mating should be made -not simpler- more honest.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 02:18 PM       
Quote:
You can't disprove an emotion. You'd have to have the ability to experience everything every sentient being has ever felt since the beginning of time to confirm or deny the existence of love.
That'd be all nice and jolly if love was just that, an emotional state. It's not. It's also a reactionary state, and a logical state. Reactionary in how a person in love chooses, given his attributed love, to react to social stimuli, and logical in how a person chooses to rationalise this emotion. The latter two attributes are in question, not the feeling of lust or that of adoration.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 02:24 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helm

I'm greek, and I know my ancient greek very well, and there are no 17 words for Love. There are words for feelings, and for shades of them, like lust, awe, respect, liking but to say that 3 words expressing 3 degrees of lust are just another 3 words for love is silly. Check your info before making such strong claims.
Helm, I'll check my books on Ancient Greek, which I understood to be different from modern day Greek, but if you're right, then I apologize.

However, my argument still stands. Even if there is only one word for love, I can supply you the word for love in a dozen languages. Easily more than that if I really dig deep.

The point is that if so many people felt strongly enough that this EMOTION existed that they created a word to express that emotion, that proves that the CONCEPT of this emotion exists.

The fact that we are having this discussion at all proves that the Concept of love exists.

Quote:
And to answer your initial question, yes, just because my ancestors had many different words for a thing, that doesn't absolutely mean that thing was as valid as you'd like to think. Linguistics are governed by the rule of necessity, not by that of validity. The greeks were in a position to socialise a lot on the agora while the slaves laboured for them, so it's only natural that language would have evolved so as to include slight deviations from strong social terms such as love, so as people would communicate their thoughts better. They also had so many words for different ideals, and shades of them, that doesn't make any of them inherently more or less right.

Your argument is unfounded.
That's kind of a ridiculous statment you just made, Helm. No offense, but from what you've said, my argument is validated.

This whole argument is to ask whether love exists. Love can only exist as an emotion and concept. It is not a physical presence. It's conceptual in nature. It's expressive of a feeling.

The fact that words were needed to express the feeling is validation that a feeling existed that necessitated the creation of a word.

Language did not happen by accident. Words aren't just "found". Meaning isn't assigned randomly. People expressly assign meaning to particular words and phrases, allowing communication.

Like I said, I'll check on that translation, and if you're right, there are a lot of professors here at VA Tech that will be surprised.

And if you're offended that I chose Greek for my analogy, well, I could just as easily choose Hebrew or Latin if you like.
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Old Feb 21st, 2003, 02:27 PM       
I can't stand the way you try to dissect and classify everything, Helm. It drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I've always liked you, I just don't see how you can live like that.

I like believing in things that cannot be seen or proven. I like mysteries, and the unexplained. For example, I believe in ghosts, I am fascinated by them. I would never want them scientifically explained or debunked. What fun would life be then?

For me, these "fairy tales" are what make life interesting.
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