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  #226  
Colonel Flagg Colonel Flagg is offline
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 10:24 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
[a whole bunch of examples showing how documents given to employees are not "theirs" to "leak"]
As an individual who deals in sensitive information on a daily basis for private industry, I'm gonna have to side with Kahl on this one.

I know I would be prosecuted if I leaked my company's sensitive information. Not to mention fired for cause.
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  #227  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 10:30 AM       
but you didnt actually STEAL the information
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  #228  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 10:33 AM       
OoPS MY BROWSER FUCKED UP
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  #229  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 10:47 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
but you didnt actually STEAL the information
No. No, I did not.
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  #230  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 11:19 AM       
What if I worked for Grumman and was working on a top secret plane for the military and took part of the design and posted it on a billboard on the side of the highway. Is the guy who owns the company that owns that billboard responsible? Or am I the one responsible because Im the one that broke confidentiality?

You want to address cause and effect but dont want to look at the effect of violating the fist amendment. No matter how you slice it Assange and Wikileaks are part of the press and thus protected. If you dont want this kind of thing going on you need seal your leaks. You dont want your thoughts and ideas about the rest of the world published for the rest of the world to read? DONT PUT IT IN A FUCKING EMAIL JACKASS.
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  #231  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 11:28 AM       
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What if I worked for Grumman and was working on a top secret plane for the military and took part of the design and posted it on a billboard on the side of the highway. Is the guy who owns the company that owns that billboard responsible? Or am I the one responsible because Im the one that broke confidentiality?
VERY NICE. But what about when you have a billboard labeled, "BILLBOARD FOR POSTING TOP SECRET PLANE PLANS FROM THE MILITARY AND BREAKING CONFIDENTIALITY" then you have created an environment in which posting these top secret plane plans is encouraged and provides an avenue for them to be taken advantage of. I also think the fact that you are looking for that sort of information makes you "responsible" in a way...
Torrent sites don't actually steal the information themselves and that is why they've been able to get away with it for so long (IN PLACeS LIKe SWedEN INTERESTINGLY WITH ALL THEIR TRANSPARENCIES IT SOMEHOW MAKES IT EASIER TO GET AWAY WITH "PROVIDING A RESOURCE AND OUTLET FOR HACKErS/INFORMATIONTHIEVES." But now more and more of these sites are coming under scrutiny and have had certain rules placed upon them due to these problems.

Furthermore, what if the billboard owner refuses to take them down cause its protected by freedom of speech/press/information? There's responsibility there right?
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  #232  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 12:30 PM       
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the reason you think BC's childishly talentless cartoon was funny is because he is the only person who has your back
I thought that they were funny.
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  #233  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 01:06 PM       
The billboard analogy was more to accentuate the idea that he who breaks confidentiality is responsible. In the actual case of posting on a billboard Im spending money for that space. As long as Im paying the rent why would the owner take it down? He is just conducting business. He nor I are breaking the law. Unless I did in fact sign a confidentiality agreement. Then I and I alone am in breach of contract.

As far as encouraging the behavior... There is nothing illegal about that either. If on that same billboard I posted a sign that reads "No cops for 10 miles. GUN IT!" I am encouraging illegal and dangerous behavior but Im not breaking the law. Say I wrote and or published a book that explained how to do illegal activities I still havent broken the law. People who buy and read said book arent breaking the law despite the fact that I am "encouraging" the behavior. Example...

http://www.amazon.com/Anarchist-Cook.../dp/0962303208

One could argue that Powel indeed encourages people do make bombs and blow shit up. Even if someone did buy this book and did in fact make a bomb using the details inside and then used the bomb to kill their neighbor whos dog just wont shut the fuck up. Who is at fault here? Is it Powel for writing the book in the first place? Is it the publisher who printed the book? Or maybe its Amazon for selling it? No. The only one responsible is the guy who actually made the bomb and used it.
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  #234  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 01:16 PM       
which is kind of funny, since amazon kicked wikileaks off their webspace. IT'S OK TO SELL BOOKS ON HOW TO BOMB SHIT BUT DONT YOU *DARE* EMBARRASS AMERICA :mad
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  #235  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 03:39 PM       
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The billboard analogy was more to accentuate the idea that he who breaks confidentiality is responsible. In the actual case of posting on a billboard Im spending money for that space. As long as Im paying the rent why would the owner take it down?
There is now pictures of child pornography on the billboard.

Quote:
Say I wrote and or published a book that explained how to do illegal activities I still havent broken the law. People who buy and read said book arent breaking the law despite the fact that I am "encouraging" the behavior.
Say you publish a book of child pornography. People who buy the book are now in possession of child pornography.
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  #236  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 03:52 PM       
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In June 1971, Daniel Ellsberg and Anthony Russo were charged with a felony under the Espionage Act of 1917, because they lacked legal authority to publish classified documents that came to be known as the Pentagon Papers.[19] The Supreme Court in New York Times Co. v. United States found that the government had not made a successful case for prior restraint, but a majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act in publishing the documents. Ellsberg and Russo were not acquitted of violating the Espionage Act, but were freed due to a mistrial based on irregularities in the government's case.[20]
feaoihfoieah

yea, so that's the law that makes it illegal to publicize classified information/be seditious. The Espionage Act of 1917

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917

I GUESS THIS ARGUMENT IS FINISHED NOW?
AT LEAST FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE LAW?
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  #237  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 04:00 PM       
Child pornography is a bit of a different story. Its flat out illegal no matter who has it or where its displayed.

Riots though! If I were to write a book (shoot a film or whatever) on how to start a riot there is nothing illegal about it. If I were to write a book saying we are going to riot on this day at this time and this is how we are going to do it... Then yes I am guilty of incitement. For it to be applicable to Assange he would have to get on Wikileaks (or I suppose anywhere really) and say "We are going to hack <government or corporate entity> next Wednesday by way of DoS."

Let me read up on this Espionage Act. BBL.
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  #238  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 04:04 PM       
oh yea.. i edited out the part about riots, but i was just bringing that up to point out why that you can't publicize/say whatever you want.

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Child pornography is a bit of a different story. Its flat out illegal no matter who has it or where its displayed.
so are guberment secrets that can harm the nation if displayed, apparantly :O

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"We are going to hack <government or corporate entity> next Wednesday by way of DoS."
Isn't that what 4chan basically did in response to this? thought i saw guitar woman or someone mention that

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SHIELD Act
In response to the actions of Julian Assange and his organization, U.S. Senators Joe Lieberman, John Ensign, and Scott Brown "introduced a bill to amend the Espionage Act in order to facilitate the prosecution of folks like Wikileaks."[31] This legislation, known as the SHIELD Act, "would make it illegal to publish the names of U.S. military and intelligence informants."[32] Critics have noted that "[l]eaking [classified] information in the first place is already a crime, so the measure is aimed squarely at publishers," and that "Lieberman’s proposed solution to WikiLeaks could have implications for journalists reporting on some of the more unsavory practices of the intelligence community."[33]
Interesting that they want to modify the law specifically for the Julian Asshinge thing. Does that mean wikileaks leaked the names of US Military and Intelligence informants?
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  #239  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 04:33 PM       
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so are guberment secrets that can harm the nation if displayed, apparantly :O
This is another point in this whole debate. IS anything he posted really going to harm the nation or its military efforts. Most of what has been released by Wikileaks (I dont say all because I havent read over all 200K+ documents) doesnt pertain any current military actions. They document mistakes and carelessness on the part of the military in events that happened in '09.

So far from what I have been reading about the espionage act this is also what keeps them from being in violation of the espionage act. But more on that later.

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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
Isn't that what 4chan basically did in response to this? thought i saw guitar woman or someone mention that
Yes and by all accounts they are in fact guilty. However unless you can prove that Assange is a member and actually partook in their illegal hacking then he still isnt guilty. Even if they did it "in his name" or whatever.

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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
Quote:
SHIELD Act
In response to the actions of Julian Assange and his organization, U.S. Senators Joe Lieberman, John Ensign, and Scott Brown "introduced a bill to amend the Espionage Act in order to facilitate the prosecution of folks like Wikileaks."[31] This legislation, known as the SHIELD Act, "would make it illegal to publish the names of U.S. military and intelligence informants."[32] Critics have noted that "[l]eaking [classified] information in the first place is already a crime, so the measure is aimed squarely at publishers," and that "Liebermanís proposed solution to WikiLeaks could have implications for journalists reporting on some of the more unsavory practices of the intelligence community."[33]
Interesting that they want to modify the law specifically for the Julian Asshinge thing. Does that mean wikileaks leaked the names of US Military and Intelligence informants?
I dont exactly follow this quote. At the beginning it sounds like they want to prosecute Wikileaks. Then it switches to talk specifically about military and intelligence informants and releasing their names. I dont know if Wikileaks released actual names of informants but if they have to amend the law to make what Wikileaks did illegal then arent they kind of saying it wasnt illegal before? Ill read up more about this Shield Act while Im reading up on the espionage thing.
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  #240  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 05:02 PM       
What they are talking about is making it specifically illegal to publish the names of undercover people and stuff. All of the stuff about leaking information covered by the espionage act was already illegal since it was ennacted in 1917. It's already illegal but this will make it easier to convict them. prolly before with a good lawyer you could get out of it easily.

prolly cause of stuff like this and the Plame case.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/37/793
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  #241  
Dimnos Dimnos is offline
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 05:07 PM       
Kind of like when Cheney outed Valerie Plame? :oops
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  #242  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 05:14 PM       
yea. i think what they are going for is that a lot of these laws are based on intent or something. So while there are laws against it there's nothing to actually protect the individuals who will have their names leaked...

with this its illegal to publicize their names, period. So it will provide a discouragement from publicizing their names at least.
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  #243  
Pentegarn Pentegarn is offline
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 05:35 PM       
I was going to reply to your tripe Zhukov, but after the beating Khal laid on your post/stance in his replies today I think that would not be very sporting of me
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  #244  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 08:34 PM       
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I think you're overestimating your ability to put people in corners, Tadao. At least when it comes to verbal arguments. I don't know about cornering people physically, but something tells me you do that much better.

I've looked through the posts you've made here (and god it's not a pretty sight), and the only time you've demanded some sort of response is when you asked for names of the leaks. I gave you a name that time, the most prominent leak so far. Link and all.
Then you kept repeating this request, as if I personally wrote the damned wikileaks and kept all the contacts in some sort of folder. Is that when you cornered me, Tadao? When you kept shouting "I want names!!"?

Oh, let me guess, it's when you wrote "what are you gonna do with all this information?" Then sorry if I didn't reply. This is what transparency is, Tadao, when people get information. What do you do with the news you read? Do you always do something actively?
Well some people do. And then you can support them, when you've received information and know how to cast your vote.
I simply think people should get information. I think that's ultimately a good thing. Totalitarian regimes cover up things and keep their people in the dark. You don't want that.

This is really all I have to say about this. It has nothing to do with being anti-american; if I was anti-american I would think you deserved the same kind of non-transparency they have in China.

Just my two cents.
The correct answer is "I was wrong. you never said that". Again we see how you simply ignore the question by trying to change the subject. Pathetic.
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  #245  
Tadao Tadao is offline
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 08:47 PM       
For the record, I'm fine with transparency, what I'm not fine with is allowing small countries with little to no military to be open to black mail. Let me guess. I'm completely wrong and this could never happen. Well I'm not saying that it is happening, I'm saying this is just one of the many horrible things that can happen just so that armchair politicians can read the latest hot gossip and complain by the water cooler about how bad the world is.

Good thing we found out abut all this stuff, now let the change roll over me like a cool mountain breeze on a hot summer night! Ahhhhhhhh refreshing!

I know, you need a better example. Let's say a county like Georgia has done some really illeagal things against Russia in order to prepare themselves against Putin's constant manuvering. Now that people who work withing Georgia's government have a place to reveal these secrets that they themselves were probably a part of as well, and the whole world is so hungry for these secrets that they are willing to protect these whistle blowers, said blower can ask for a lot of stuff or they will give the secrets out. Georgia will pay for sure, they can't afford to be held accountable, but major countries like the U.S. and Russia can just ignore the crime they themselves have committed because no one is going to take them down.

Whatever though, telling you this is gonna prevent this from happening as much as Hilary Clinton is gonna be punished for her crimes against the U.N.
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  #246  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 10:58 PM       
i was readin gthis thing earlier and it said that after he announced that he was gonna release some new leaks next month about corrupt individuals in a major bank, that Bank of Americas stock declined and it migt be because they thought the leaks were about bank of america
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  #247  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 11:01 PM       
Wait, he's now pre warning what he is gonna release. This dude is probably as corrupt as the people he is outing.
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  #248  
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 11:28 PM       
I've been too negative about this whole thing, so here is a positive scenario.

All the world leaders are at a table in their secret cave. They are very upset. Apparently all there brilliant strategist and operatives couldn't figure out how to stop there employers collapse. It all started after Blasted Child told his mom that he is outraged and something needed to be done. Magically rocks thrown by rebels could bring down war planes and a molotov cocktail could destroy a tank. Trash can lids could deflect bullets and people were organized enough to forget about their own financial woes and made it to a rally. Indecently, rallies were effective enough to keep peoples emotions high past the next day and new leaders were put into office with the strict warning that Blasted Child would be able to see everything they did and they would be sorry if he catches you being corrupt.
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  #249  
Tadao Tadao is offline
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 11:45 PM       
I know this girl who will have sex with you for money. She's 12 years old. I'll give you her number for 50 dollars and you pay her directly for the sex. I'm not a scumbag though because I'm not the one breaking the law.
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  #250  
Pentegarn Pentegarn is offline
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Old Dec 23rd, 2010, 06:04 AM       
You forgot to hope really hard for the best case scenario Tadao, if you do that then bad consequences can't possibly happen no matter what short sighted things one does right?
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