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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 02:51 AM        Is Lying About The Reason For War An Impeachable Offense?
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0606-05.htm

Published on Friday, June 6, 2003 by FindLaw's Legal Commentary

Missing Weapons Of Mass Destruction
Is Lying About The Reason For War An Impeachable Offense?

by John W. Dean

President George W. Bush has got a very serious problem. Before asking Congress for a Joint Resolution authorizing the use of American military forces in Iraq, he made a number of unequivocal statements about the reason the United States needed to pursue the most radical actions any nation can undertake - acts of war against another nation.

Now it is clear that many of his statements appear to be false. In the past, Bush's White House has been very good at sweeping ugly issues like this under the carpet, and out of sight. But it is not clear that they will be able to make the question of what happened to Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) go away - unless, perhaps, they start another war.

That seems unlikely. Until the questions surrounding the Iraqi war are answered, Congress and the public may strongly resist more of President Bush's warmaking.

Presidential statements, particularly on matters of national security, are held to an expectation of the highest standard of truthfulness. A president cannot stretch, twist or distort facts and get away with it. President Lyndon Johnson's distortions of the truth about Vietnam forced him to stand down from reelection. President Richard Nixon's false statements about Watergate forced his resignation.

Frankly, I hope the WMDs are found, for it will end the matter. Clearly, the story of the missing WMDs is far from over. And it is too early, of course, to draw conclusions. But it is not too early to explore the relevant issues.

President Bush's Statements On Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Readers may not recall exactly what President Bush said about weapons of mass destruction; I certainly didn't. Thus, I have compiled these statements below. In reviewing them, I saw that he had, indeed, been as explicit and declarative as I had recalled.

Bush's statements, in chronological order, were:

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

United Nations Address
September 12, 2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio Address
October 5, 2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003

Should The President Get The Benefit Of The Doubt?

When these statements were made, Bush's let-me-mince-no-words posture was convincing to many Americans. Yet much of the rest of the world, and many other Americans, doubted them.

As Bush's veracity was being debated at the United Nations, it was also being debated on campuses - including those where I happened to be lecturing at the time.

On several occasions, students asked me the following question: Should they believe the President of the United States? My answer was that they should give the President the benefit of the doubt, for several reasons deriving from the usual procedures that have operated in every modern White House and that, I assumed, had to be operating in the Bush White House, too.

First, I assured the students that these statements had all been carefully considered and crafted. Presidential statements are the result of a process, not a moment's thought. White House speechwriters process raw information, and their statements are passed on to senior aides who have both substantive knowledge and political insights. And this all occurs before the statement ever reaches the President for his own review and possible revision.

Second, I explained that - at least in every White House and administration with which I was familiar, from Truman to Clinton - statements with national security implications were the most carefully considered of all. The White House is aware that, in making these statements, the President is speaking not only to the nation, but also to the world.

Third, I pointed out to the students, these statements are typically corrected rapidly if they are later found to be false. And in this case, far from backpedaling from the President's more extreme claims, Bush's press secretary, Ari Fleischer had actually, at times, been even more emphatic than the President had. For example, on January 9, 2003, Fleischer stated, during his press briefing, "We know for a fact that there are weapons there."

In addition, others in the Administration were similarly quick to back the President up, in some cases with even more unequivocal statements. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld repeatedly claimed that Saddam had WMDs - and even went so far as to claim he knew "where they are; they're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

Finally, I explained to the students that the political risk was so great that, to me, it was inconceivable that Bush would make these statements if he didn't have damn solid intelligence to back him up. Presidents do not stick their necks out only to have them chopped off by political opponents on an issue as important as this, and if there was any doubt, I suggested, Bush's political advisers would be telling him to hedge. Rather than stating a matter as fact, he would be say: "I have been advised," or "Our intelligence reports strongly suggest," or some such similar hedge. But Bush had not done so.

So what are we now to conclude if Bush's statements are found, indeed, to be as grossly inaccurate as they currently appear to have been?

After all, no weapons of mass destruction have been found, and given Bush's statements, they should not have been very hard to find - for they existed in large quantities, "thousands of tons" of chemical weapons alone. Moreover, according to the statements, telltale facilities, groups of scientists who could testify, and production equipment also existed.

So where is all that? And how can we reconcile the White House's unequivocal statements with the fact that they may not exist?

There are two main possibilities. One that something is seriously wrong within the Bush White House's national security operations. That seems difficult to believe. The other is that the President has deliberately misled the nation, and the world.

A Desperate Search For WMDs Has So Far Yielded Little, If Any, Fruit

Even before formally declaring war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq, the President had dispatched American military special forces into Iraq to search for weapons of mass destruction, which he knew would provide the primary justification for Operation Freedom. None were found.

Throughout Operation Freedom's penetration of Iraq and drive toward Baghdad, the search for WMDs continued. None were found.

As the coalition forces gained control of Iraqi cities and countryside, special search teams were dispatched to look for WMDs. None were found.

During the past two and a half months, according to reliable news reports, military patrols have visited over 300 suspected WMD sites throughout Iraq. None of the prohibited weapons were found there.

British and American Press Reaction to the Missing WMDs

British Prime Minister Tony Blair is also under serious attack in England, which he dragged into the war unwillingly, based on the missing WMDs. In Britain, the missing WMDs are being treated as scandalous; so far, the reaction in the U.S. has been milder.

New York Times columnist, Paul Krugman, has taken Bush sharply to task, asserting that it is "long past time for this administration to be held accountable." "The public was told that Saddam posed an imminent threat," Krugman argued. "If that claim was fraudulent," he continued, "the selling of the war is arguably the worst scandal in American political history - worse than Watergate, worse than Iran-contra." But most media outlets have reserved judgment as the search for WMDs in Iraq continues.

Still, signs do not look good. Last week, the Pentagon announced it was shifting its search from looking for WMD sites, to looking for people who can provide leads as to where the missing WMDs might be.

Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security John Bolton, while offering no new evidence, assured Congress that WMDs will indeed be found. And he advised that a new unit called the Iraq Survey Group, composed of some 1400 experts and technicians from around the world, is being deployed to assist in the searching.

But, as Time magazine reported, the leads are running out. According to Time, the Marine general in charge explained that "[w]e've been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwaiti border and Baghdad," and remarked flatly, "They're simply not there."

Perhaps most troubling, the President has failed to provide any explanation of how he could have made his very specific statements, yet now be unable to back them up with supporting evidence. Was there an Iraqi informant thought to be reliable, who turned out not to be? Were satellite photos innocently, if negligently misinterpreted? Or was his evidence not as solid as he led the world to believe?

The absence of any explanation for the gap between the statements and reality only increases the sense that the President's misstatements may actually have been intentional lies.

Investigating The Iraqi War Intelligence Reports

Even now, while the jury is still out as to whether intentional misconduct occurred, the President has a serious credibility problem. Newsweek magazine posed the key questions: "If America has entered a new age of pre-emption --when it must strike first because it cannot afford to find out later if terrorists possess nuclear or biological weapons--exact intelligence is critical. How will the United States take out a mad despot or a nuclear bomb hidden in a cave if the CIA can't say for sure where they are? And how will Bush be able to maintain support at home and abroad?"

In an apparent attempt to bolster the President's credibility, and his own, Secretary Rumsfeld himself has now called for a Defense Department investigation into what went wrong with the pre-war intelligence. New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd finds this effort about on par with O. J.'s looking for his wife's killer. But there may be a difference: Unless the members of Administration can find someone else to blame - informants, surveillance technology, lower-level personnel, you name it - they may not escape fault themselves.

Congressional committees are also looking into the pre-war intelligence collection and evaluation. Senator John Warner (R-VA), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said his committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee would jointly investigate the situation. And the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence plans an investigation.

These investigations are certainly appropriate, for there is potent evidence of either a colossal intelligence failure or misconduct - and either would be a serious problem. When the best case scenario seems to be mere incompetence, investigations certainly need to be made.

Senator Bob Graham - a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee - told CNN's Aaron Brown, that while he still hopes they find WMDs or at least evidence thereof, he has also contemplated three other possible alternative scenarios:

One is that [the WMDs] were spirited out of Iraq, which maybe is the worst of all possibilities, because now the very thing that we were trying to avoid, proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, could be in the hands of dozens of groups. Second, that we had bad intelligence. Or third, that the intelligence was satisfactory but that it was manipulated, so as just to present to the American people and to the world those things that made the case for the necessity of war against Iraq.

Senator Graham seems to believe there is a serious chance that it is the final scenario that reflects reality. Indeed, Graham told CNN "there's been a pattern of manipulation by this administration."

Graham has good reason to complain. According to the New York Times, he was one of the few members of the Senate who saw the national intelligence estimate that was the basis for Bush's decisions. After reviewing it, Senator Graham requested that the Bush Administration declassify the information before the Senate voted on the Administration's resolution requesting use of the military in Iraq.

But rather than do so, CIA Director Tenet merely sent Graham a letter discussing the findings. Graham then complained that Tenet's letter only addressed "findings that supported the administration's position on Iraq," and ignored information that raised questions about intelligence. In short, Graham suggested that the Administration, by cherrypicking only evidence to its own liking, had manipulated the information to support its conclusion.

Recent statements by one of the high-level officials privy to the decisionmaking process that lead to the Iraqi war also strongly suggests manipulation, if not misuse of the intelligence agencies. Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, during an interview with Sam Tannenhaus of Vanity Fair magazine, said: "The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason." More recently, Wolfowitz added what most have believed all along, that the reason we went after Iraq is that "[t]he country swims on a sea of oil."

Worse than Watergate? A Potential Huge Scandal If WMDs Are Still Missing

Krugman is right to suggest a possible comparison to Watergate. In the three decades since Watergate, this is the first potential scandal I have seen that could make Watergate pale by comparison. If the Bush Administration intentionally manipulated or misrepresented intelligence to get Congress to authorize, and the public to support, military action to take control of Iraq, then that would be a monstrous misdeed.

As I remarked in an earlier column, this Administration may be due for a scandal. While Bush narrowly escaped being dragged into Enron, it was not, in any event, his doing. But the war in Iraq is all Bush's doing, and it is appropriate that he be held accountable.

To put it bluntly, if Bush has taken Congress and the nation into war based on bogus information, he is cooked. Manipulation or deliberate misuse of national security intelligence data, if proven, could be "a high crime" under the Constitution's impeachment clause. It would also be a violation of federal criminal law, including the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which renders it a felony "to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose."

It's important to recall that when Richard Nixon resigned, he was about to be impeached by the House of Representatives for misusing the CIA and FBI. After Watergate, all presidents are on notice that manipulating or misusing any agency of the executive branch improperly is a serious abuse of presidential power.

Nixon claimed that his misuses of the federal agencies for his political purposes were in the interest of national security. The same kind of thinking might lead a President to manipulate and misuse national security agencies or their intelligence to create a phony reason to lead the nation into a politically desirable war. Let us hope that is not the case.

John Dean, a FindLaw columnist, is a former Counsel to the President of the United States.

Copyright © 1994-2003 FindLaw

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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 02:58 AM       
I can't wait till Vi- I mean, someone brings up Clinton.

Without immediately stating that Bush should or should not be impeached, I think it's imperative that an official investigation into the reasoning for the war on Iraq is made. Perhaps even an international one - Bush, his administration and his allies (i.e, Blair) have provided fuzzy logic and fuzzy evidence to the world in an attempt to get mass support for it, but there might've been some outright lies in there.
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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 05:16 AM        Seriously?
This is a lost cause. You guys aren't serious right? It's so simplistic is not even funny. First, as history has proven, unless you're caught doing the do, you aren't going to get busted. Second, it's virtually unprovable.

I'm not talking even remotely about the validity of the argument. I'm simply talking about the feasability of there being any serious repercussions. It's basic. Public outcries that govt. lied. Govt states that the situation is a result in part of bad intel by the obviously incompetent (see 9/11) agencies, and partly by the crafty of job of Saddam(although he may or may not have been dead) of destroying the stockpiles without a trace just minutes before the calvary arrives.

Intel agencies cry foul and say govt. "manipulated" intel to fit it's purpose, Dubya says "naaa uhhhhh". Dead end. Saddam disappears forever, leaves the later explanation impossible to verify.

Done and done.
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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 10:27 AM       
Wasn't the burden of proof on Saddam to prove he had no WMD and not for Bush to prove Saddam still had them? Legalese and all that junk.
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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 11:38 AM       
Since Sadams government no longer exists, doesn't that burden now fall to us?

The question in the article is; did the dminstration deliberately and knowling manipulate information to make a case for war it could not have made otherwise.

GA's argument is valid, and truthfully I think that's how it will play out.

But...

In Watergate and in many other instances, it's the cover-up and nopt the crime that makes the house of cards fall. In investigating how intelligence on Iraq was gathered, evidence and testimony may arise, their may well be a 'smoking gun' in the Pentagon proving that wolfowitz, chenney, et al not only pressured intelligence sources nd culled information, but made attempts to cover their tracks as well.

It's happened before. It may well be happening in Engl;and right now. The question isn't going to go away.
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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 11:43 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Wasn't the burden of proof on Saddam to prove he had no WMD and not for Bush to prove Saddam still had them? Legalese and all that junk.
Guilty until proven innocent, right?
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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 11:47 AM       
Whether or not the guy had him or not was not an argument. Countries had already admitted that Saddam had WMD. The argument was over whether or not he had disarmed. It was his burden of proof that mattered, not ours. If he would have shown that he disarmed and let us have 100% open and free access, there would have been no war.
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Old Jun 9th, 2003, 12:49 PM        Re: Seriously?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAsux
This is a lost cause. You guys aren't serious right? It's so simplistic is not even funny. First, as history has proven, unless you're caught doing the do, you aren't going to get busted.
Hmm, so did cameras bust in on Bill and Monica while she was giving him a wax job??? Other people stepped forward, claimed scandal, and the rest is tabloid history. If Clinton's sexual adventures qualify as worthy of investigation, certainly, a war that cost the lives of Iraqis, Americans, as well as running up a cost in the billions, must be worthy as well.

Clinton lied under oath, and not only that, lied on TV to the American public. Bush was never put under oath, but he certainly made public statements basically promosing STOCKPILES of WMD. He, as well as Rumsfeld, made numerous claims (as cited above) in public that are at best errouneous, and at worst criminal. I think it's worth the public scrutiny to figure out which one it is.


Quote:
Second, it's virtually unprovable.

I'm not talking even remotely about the validity of the argument. I'm simply talking about the feasability of there being any serious repercussions. It's basic. Public outcries that govt. lied. Govt states that the situation is a result in part of bad intel by the obviously incompetent (see 9/11) agencies, and partly by the crafty of job of Saddam(although he may or may not have been dead) of destroying the stockpiles without a trace just minutes before the calvary arrives.
But see here's the thing, if the latter argument is taken, it will be expected that they find these weapons, OR, find out 1. where they were sent or 2. IF they were made. You may not find sarin gas, but you can find the places it was made. You made not find chemical weapons, but just ask Scott Ritter, you can find WHERE it was made, if at all.

The former argument simply holds no validity, because the White House was actually contradicting the intel coming from the CIA throughout much of the war.

Quote:
Intel agencies cry foul and say govt. "manipulated" intel to fit it's purpose, Dubya says "naaa uhhhhh". Dead end. Saddam disappears forever, leaves the later explanation impossible to verify.

Done and done.
The most "damning" evidence Bush and Blair ever came forward with was Blair's dossier on human rights violations in Iraq. This was not a product of American intelligence, rather, it was a product of data from Amnesty International and some guy in California. This hardly gives Bush a leg to stand on when condemning the intel agencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Whether or not the guy had him or not was not an argument. Countries had already admitted that Saddam had WMD.
What countries admitted this?? What did they admit he had?? When did he have it?? Tell me, is it nice living in a simplistic land of shoots and ladders??

Quote:
The argument was over whether or not he had disarmed. It was his burden of proof that mattered, not ours. If he would have shown that he disarmed and let us have 100% open and free access, there would have been no war.
He said he didn't have what the Bush administration had claimed, and all evidence is now proving him to be right.

Here's a big inconsistency in the argument of morons such as yourself, Vince. UN inspectors were given only a few months before Bush demanded they be pulled out, citing that Saddam had not come into compliance. When South Africa openly disarmed, and allowed inspectors in freely, the process STILL took over a year or so. But now that Saddam is gone, and there should be no stopping us from finding the "Stockpiles" of WMD, the Bush administration is crying about time.

Hans Blix, shortly after the war had started, said Iraq had been very open, very accessible, and relatively speaking, had been cooperative. The only ones who made the argument you are now making were Bush and Blair. I think it's fair now that their public careers take a close examination because of it.
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Old Jun 10th, 2003, 12:00 AM        Yeah
Kev,
Let's not fight anymore. Please? Anyway, I'm not saying so bad shit likely didn't go down. What I'm saying is that I have very little confidence in the idea that any significant member of the current administration will suffer any consequences as a result. My point was, it's going to take a photograph of Professor Dubya in the library with the candlestick to make anything work. Short of blatantly obvious proof, my feeling is that ultimately it will be much ado about nothing. The Dems will cry foul, the Republicans will rally, and ultimately there won't be enough concrete proof to lead to an impeachment, or even a resignation.

But I want to re-emphasize something that I brought up in another thread somewhere that I think is very relevant. 9/11 changed a lot, for everyone. Administration officials, intel agencies, etc have historically been intensely loyal to the administration, even when they disagree privately. Those who've worked inside have always said that they felt a certain obligation to "serve" the administration even if they personally disagreed.

After 9/11, the finger pointing was all geared towards the intel agencies. There are men and women who have worked in those agencies their entire lives busting their ass. I don't think they so much appreciated being called out like that. The CIA/DIA/FBI became the fall guys. I don't think they intend to let that happen this time.

What I'm saying is it's relatively unprecedented for so many intel types to come forward and admit that they were pressured by administration officials, etc. Its not a case of one random crusader ala Dan Ellsberg taking a stand. It's the whole of the agencies. Its they who will be the thorn in Dubyas side because I don't think they are so eager to take the blame again.
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Old Jun 10th, 2003, 07:11 AM       
I was mostly musing on the situation in my reply. I would like to see a deep investigation into this matter, but I haven't a clue who would be willing, daring or interested enough to make a case out of it.
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Old Jun 10th, 2003, 09:36 AM       
Rice, Powell, and now Bush have over reacted to the criticism and made some classic political mistakes, or at very least gambels, in the last few days.

They have all asserted that not only was intelligence not abused in any way, it was accurate, and WMD WILL be found in Iraq. The only wiggle room they've left themselves is how long it may take.

Suppose we head into the election with nothing found but three totally clean trucks who's functions are now in dispute? Can a Bush running for office then say "Well, I meant WMD will be found historically, or perhaps archeologically."?

Opinion polls being what they are, they should have just sat tight and said nothing more than that they had and have faith in the intelligence they acted upon.
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Old Jun 10th, 2003, 10:19 AM       
Kevin, you must be a moron. Did not Tom Daschle sit there on capital hill back in 98 and talk about the threat that Iraq is against us? Did Clinton not talk about that as well? Other countries agreed as well, such as France and Germany and Britian and Italy. We had just as much if not one or two more countries that agreed with us this time that Saddam had WMD. And do you really think that Saddam would leave that shit in the open? That he wouldn't hide the weapons as soon as he knew some shit was up? You would probably let Ted Bundy go too if he got rid of all the bodies but everyone had a multitude of other evidence.

Kev, get back to your position in life: Sucking my cock.
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Old Jun 10th, 2003, 11:02 AM        Yup
Max,
I noticed Dubya saying recently things along the lines of "We know Iraq HAD a weapons program". It seems to me the angle they are going to pursue is that we know they had it, they just likely destroyed it before we could get in there. That's my guess, anyway.
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Old Jun 10th, 2003, 11:59 AM        Re: Yeah
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAsux
The Dems will cry foul, the Republicans will rally, and ultimately there won't be enough concrete proof to lead to an impeachment, or even a resignation.
Perhaps, so that means it shouldn't be persued? If wrongs have been commited, should not an investigation occur?

Quote:
What I'm saying is it's relatively unprecedented for so many intel types to come forward and admit that they were pressured by administration officials, etc. Its not a case of one random crusader ala Dan Ellsberg taking a stand. It's the whole of the agencies. Its they who will be the thorn in Dubyas side because I don't think they are so eager to take the blame again.
I don't think you can just sit back and allow the agencies within the in-question administration to serve as a check upon itself. There must be an exterior, autonomous, bi-partisan investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by an ignorant baboon
Did not Tom Daschle sit there on capital hill back in 98 and talk about the threat that Iraq is against us? Did Clinton not talk about that as well?
Let me give you a refresher course, Vince. In 1998, Scott Ritter was still the top UN weapons inspector in Iraq. He went before the Senate, and told them all that Iraq had not come in compliance for disarming.

The reason he did this, and the reason he to this day stands by that stance, is that the guidelines he had set before him was a complete 100% Iraqi disarmament. Although he could atest that most of what Iraq had was gone, he couldn't prove it was all gone (particularly any kinds of chem. weapons). So, with that said, lets assume they still had anthrax, which they admitted to having. Anthrax has a shelf life, in IDEAL storage conditions, of no more than two years (that's a generous guess, to my recollection). Now, our teams in there now, as well as the UN teams, inspected these places. Not only have they not found anything, but they have also learned that these facilities were far from "ideal." (Don't even go to the "moving van chem. lab" farce).

In 1998, when Clinton enacted Desert Fox, he in fact had the UN team pulled out of Iraq so he could bomb the country. If Clinton and Daschle were so concerned, why would Clinton indefintely pull out the inspection team???

Quote:
Other countries agreed as well, such as France and Germany and Britian and Italy. We had just as much if not one or two more countries that agreed with us this time that Saddam had WMD.
When did they agree? What time period are we talking about? What did these countries agree Iraq had? Furthermore, since when do you care about the opinions of Tom Daschle, Bill Clinton, Germany, and France??? Way to be consistent, clambake.

Quote:
And do you really think that Saddam would leave that shit in the open? That he wouldn't hide the weapons as soon as he knew some shit was up? You would probably let Ted Bundy go too if he got rid of all the bodies but everyone had a multitude of other evidence.
But we found his victims, didn't we? And until we did, he benefited from a presumed innocence, up until his guilt was proven. If there had been one investigation that turned up nothing, maybe he would've gone free. Then a second one? Nothing? Wait, wait, ok, a THIRD investigation. Nothing? Did thjis guy REALLY do what he has been accused of??

Bundy was proven guilty. Saddam has not been proven guilty of these crimes.

Quote:
Kev, get back to your position in life: Sucking my cock.
You're certainly entitled to your homoerotic fantasies, but I'm getting pretty damn tired of holding your hand through these threads. Try to keep up next time, ok??
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Old Jun 10th, 2003, 07:07 PM       
it should be enough.. but its not, not with this administration.. i think they have survived many, many lies so far.

i'd like to just add this lie/crime to a long list that could ALL lead to impeachment if we have some whistleblowers but without witnesses coming forward our representatives are affraid to bring any of these up for fear of the smears this administration can lay out when it turns its monstrous head in a dissenters direction.

for those that like audio there's an interview with dean at:
http://www.democracynow.org/article....3/06/10/166246
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 08:14 AM       
Kevin, why do you want to hold my hand? Are you a fag?
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 09:20 AM       
"Kev, get back to your position in life: Sucking my cock."
- The Clambaker

"I'm getting pretty damn tired of holding your hand"
-Kevin

"Kevin, why do you want to hold my hand? Are you a fag?"
-Vinthent LaClambake


My money is on Vinth being the fag, which is fine. It is his prison inmate approach to dating I dislike.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 11:01 AM       
Vince's sexual preference seems to be the only thing he's willing and/or capable of answering.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 11:06 AM       
I just think it's kind of sweet how focused he is on you. Kind of romantic in a hideous, rough trade, inadequate way.
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Cybernetico Cybernetico is offline
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 02:56 PM       
Back on topic, stretching the truth is practically a government pastime. There are probobly more that they dont tell us then they do, and it's obvious. The government can put anyone to silence if they want, they control what we learn and know.

As far as we know, we could have only done the war for the oil, and maybe saddam doesnt exist but is a fictional hitler-like figure created for us to believe we are doing right so we keep our mouths shut.

I mean, look at Hiroshima. We were told that we dropped fliers for over a week telling people to abandon so they would have minimal casualties. That was a lie. We were shown recreations shortly after showing soldiers who were flying the plane that they were being flakked at and many died in the attempt, yet one plane went in and there was no defense. We were even told that millions upon millions of American lives would have been saved because it would have ended the war quickly, yet estimates really showed that that was a total lie.

There are even still mysteries about it. Were there any other ways? How many died exactly? How many people got a 1UP from the mushroom cloud?

We may NEVER know.....
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 03:06 PM       
Can I get the government to shut you up?
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 03:45 PM       
A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul.

-George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

-Edward Abbey (1927-1989) US author

By definition, a government has no conscience, sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more.

-Albert Camus (1913-1960)
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GAsux GAsux is offline
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 04:35 PM        Soiled undergarments...
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....and maybe saddam doesnt exist but is a fictional hitler-like figure created for us to believe we are doing right so we keep our mouths shut.

Sorry. I need a babywipe because I think I might have just pooped my pants. That was pretty funny.

Hey, maybe Dubya doesn't exist either. He could just be fictional-Hitler like figure created for us to believe we are doing right so we keep our mouths shut.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 11th, 2003, 11:47 PM       
Zosimus, did you employ your cute little cliches and quotes when Clinton was president?
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Jun 12th, 2003, 11:17 AM       
Your assumption, repeatedly refuted, that we're all Clinton fans here, is yet more proof your are as dense as diamonds.

Know what I did like though? The surplus. Clinton? Don't miss him so much. The Surplus? Really sad to see it go.

Did you employ YOUR stupid ass style when Bush senior was President? Or were you still in pull-ups back then?
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