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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
There were/are Marxist Zionists, Capatilist Zionists, Communist Zionists, Socialist Zionists, Imperialist Zionists, Passivist Zionists, Religious Zionists, Non-Religious Zionists, Jewish Zionist, Non- Jewish Zionists, Arabic Zionists, Cannanite Zionists, World Zionists, American Zionists, Christian Zionists, Muslim Zionists, and so on and so on.
The way I read and hear the word "Zionism" used rarely aknowledges that.
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Yes, I think I've agreed with you on as much as this, but that doesn't change the fact that politicized Zionism not only justified, but essentially implemented the possession of land from other people.
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Then again it's hard to disguise your hatred when you're quoted as saying "Zionism is shit" as you have.
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The kind that justifies taking land, forecfully id necessary, for the sake of a Jewsish homeland, yes, I do take issue with that.
This scathing criticism coming from someone who denounces the very existence of a Palestinian, let alone their right to self-determination.
EARLIER STATEMENT BY ABCDXXXX:
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If we're talking about an identity crisis, let's also mention a few of the Iraqis, Egyptians, Kuwaitis, Syrians, Saudis, and Yemenites amongst others who ALL call themselves Palestinian when the mood strikes. Some of them even move to Gaza, which accounts for the population double within the past 8 years. To some, Palestinian is code for "Killing Jews".
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So when you making a sweepind condemnation of Palestinians, or more accurately, when you are basically defending Rev. Danno for saying "F*** THE PALISTINIANS," are you saying fuck the Iraqi Palestinians, the Egyptian Palestinians, the Kuwait Palestinians, the Syrian Palestinians, the Saudi Palestinians, the Yemenite Palestinians, or simply the "kill the jews" contingent of the Palestinians??? The way I read and hear your use of the word rarely acknowledges that.
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So it's okay to make sweeping generalizations when speaking of Islamist (for example) if I differenetiated the words with lower case letters? Does that make the generalizations less so? When you say the word Zionist verbally are you carefull to make a hand gesture so people understand which "version" you're speaking of?
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You assume that I spend much of my day cursing Zionism, or zionism, or zIONISM, or ZiOnIsM......
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Also - Zionism was never a party with a set political idealogy. Ever. It certainly can't be broken up into Big Z little z. Bad Z, tolerable z? Political Zionism, Non-political Zionism? That would be rather black and white of you wouldn't it?
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The World Zionist Congress? Not to mention that the state of Israel, despite its diversity, is still a monument to the existence of this political zIoNiSm.
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Not nearly as revitionist as trying to paint Herzl as some illuminati figure with a devious dictators influence. The mass imigration was happening before the Zionists even organized, by people who had never even heard of Herzl...and last I checked, purchasing land is a perfectly acceptable thing to believe in. It's called real estate trade.
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How big were the "mass" Aliyah before Herzl was involved? Certainly I wasn't trying to insinuate that he was the
only one involved, but he certainly had a part.
And on real estate trade-- is this how all Arabs lef the land?
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Did you take a class in this whole upper case lower case thing? Is that like a Marxist thing? Seriously, your grammatical semantics don't make your opinions any more pallatable. Jews (upper case) are different then jews (lower case) now? Is that like screaming "you can't hit me i'm invisible" during dodgeball?
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No, I learned it in ANTSEM101, and then we covered it again in "ANTSEM307: Why burning the Jews was a good thing, and why Karl Marx would approve"
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Wrong books, right books...they're just books. You're pretty bold for admitting your opinions were formed in classrooms, and in the pages of text books.
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I know, I know, like the old 80s catch phrase and book, "HARVARD HATES AMERICA." Books are bad, school is bad, professors are rotten liberals, so WHERE do we get our knowledge??? Well, we CLEARLY need an EXPERT on the matter....but where can we find one of THOSES!!!?? (scratches his head)...............I've got it!
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
It's my family history, and it's a topic I've concerned myself with for the past 23 years. My family were refugees, they speak arabic as well as hebrew, and I have dual citizenship to Israel. I know people who fought for the State, donated money, were politically active. I know sabras with family lineage tracing back hundreds of years and I've talked with them. When I meet Jews the topic comes up, and I am constantly disgussing it with all sorts of people. My Uncle ran the NY office of Peace Now and still makes a living speaking around the world for Palestinian rights. I've had plenty of talks and debates with Palestinians, and Islamic Arabs on the subject. It's not one of many world events I concern myself with, it's THE issue I concern myself with the most. I've also taken the classes and read the books too. These credentials simply explain why I can see through the second hand academic rhetoric.
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WE'VE GOT AN EXPERT RIGHT HERE! THROW OUT YOUR BOOKS THAT CRITICIZE ISRAEL IN ANY WAY, WE HAVE AN EXPERT HERE WHO CAN CURE YOU OF YOUR LIBERAL EDUCATION!!!! HURRAH!!!
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I know, you have friends like the United Nations and you've done shrooms a few times but get some humility.
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What the hell was the point of this statement? I've never done mushrooms, or any harsh drugs before in my life. Are you insinuating that all white, American college students are drug addicts who hang out in the UN building? Is the UN a front for weed and shrooms??? What the hell are you talking about???
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Look, there are plenty of gray areas when it comes to any topic, and Zionism is full of them. Fixating, or scapegoating on one aspect of a term like Zionism is ...well....pretty black or white of you isn't it? There are some issues that ARE black or white to those who are impassioned about them. Our right to vote, our right to freedom, the right to chose....these are ALL black and white issues for me.
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That's very poetic, but that doesn't mean being critical of ZIOnISM makes you an anti-semite, or evil, or a Nazi, or whatever. I find it's helpful to be critical of everything, even ones own beliefs. You should try it some time....
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It's interesting to hear Noam Chomksey fans accuse others of being too simple minded or black/white because he is VERY b/w in his message.
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Well it's cuz we're too busy doing shrooms at the UN to clearly critique Noam, but if we had an expert like yourself around, we'd be MUCH better off......
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Passionate causes tend to invoke a more decided stance. When someone is bold enough to say "Zionism is shit" then sure, I will call you a bigot and disagree. You weren't reffering to Arabic Zionists or Canaanite Zionists when you made the comment, you were reffering to one faction... a Jewish one.
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Wrong. I was reffering to the "faction" that resulted in the displacement of an entire people. Does this mean I don't believe in a Jewish homeland? No. Does this even mean that TODAY, in 2003, I would justify some silly Hamas like argument of pushing the Jews out into the Mediterranean??? No. It means I question an ideology that would justify doing just about ANYTHING to take land they feel entitle to (much like I am an American who sees the good in America, yet has the ability to likewise critique manifest destiny and the killing of native Americans). You follow?