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Originally Posted by O71394658
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Republican Party has actively recruited members of a religious organization they despise. Saying that the Republican Party as a whole has a palpable disdain for Catholics is a little far-fetched.
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I didn't say the entire Republican Party disdains Catholics, because clearly, many Republicans
are Catholics. But that's sort of my point. As I said, Catholicism is the single largest denomination in the U.S. Congress.
Somebody is breaking with the Church teachings virtually every time the floor comes to a vote. Where is the outrage then? Granted, as you stated below, abortion and gay marriage are hot-button issues. However, this isn't merely coming from the usual Catholic critics, this is coming from the Congress of Bishops. This is essentially the deciding Catholic power in America debating whether or not pro-choice representatives should be denied the Eucharist at Mass. This is serious, and if such ideas are going to get thrown around, I think we need to have some consistency.
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Catholics who are pro-choice or pro-life may not be bound to their decisions by their religion. They may just feel that, despite what most religious people would argue, that a women does have the right to choose. The only reason that they may have drawn fire from opposite-minded Catholics would be that it would be out of line with what the Church teaches.
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The Iraq war violated those teachins as well, but you don't see ANY discussion about Republican Catholics who voted for the war being denied the Eucharist. From what I read, the Bishops who decided using the Eucharist as a political lobbying tool felt that they had been placed in a corner. But who put them in this corner? Catholics are traditionally Democrats, and they tend to approach the abortion issue with more complexity than simply pro-this or pro-that. Those who are crying the loudest, like the Catholic League, have
always been crying. So I ask it once again-- what made this happen now? Why simply the pressure on Catholic LIBERALS who break with the teachings, as opposed to pressuring ALL Catholic politicians....? The latter stance has normally been the route taken, and normally, the Bishops have avoided endorsing or condemning any individual party, which seems lik the wiser tactic, IMO.
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The fact that the issues themselves may or may not have been "pushed", is in my opinion, inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't tend to think that Republicans are touting the moral red flag because it's an election year...I think they've always touted the moral flag over the Democrats...the only reason that such issues have come up is that those issues have been popular in recent media events, and several Congressmen have voiced their opinons on matters of public importance. Gay marriage and abortion are definitely hot-button issues within the coming election, so I would think that the Rep. Party would tow the moral line, as it always has.
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Were it not an election year, and were a Catholic not running for the presidency, refusing the Eucharist wouldn't be an issue. I truly believe that we wouldn't have seen the national Bishops even CONSIDER condoning such behavior, which in my opinion is an outrage. Once again, the impression I got is that they really felt like they had been pushed into a corner. You're right, with gay marriage becoming a hot national issue, and abortion being abortion, it makes sense that they might get more pressure than normal to pick sides.
AND, as I said in the very beginning, I'm FINE with that. But where is the consistency? Where is the public outcry over the Iraq war? Granted, the same Catholic missionaries, activists, and humanitarians who ALWAYS work on these issues are still doing so. A priest and some nuns just recently got released from jail for protesting the SOA in Atlanta. They intend to go do it again. Catholics were ahead of the game in protesting the Iraq sanctions, long before the MoveOn/ANSWER crowd became hip to it. But these are a small minority of activists, and they don't necessarily reflect the sentiment of the typical American Catholic these days (which I will touch upon in responding to ABC).
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Your assumption that this has been done by Catholic-hating-Christians is I think merely that, an unfound assumption.
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Not quite. I have been told on several occassions that as a Catholic, I am not really a "true Christian." You're right in saying the the RNC isn't specifically courting the Catholic vote, but guys like Ralph Reed certainly are, and what do you think his opinion of Catholics REALLY is???? Right-Wingers seem to love Catholics and Jews as long as they serve convenient political purposes. But when you break it down, and we hold real conversations about salvation and spirituality, you'd see where folks like myself rank with the Evangelical/Southern Baptist crowd.
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
I see part of the issue being that the Catholic Church let themselves become available to lobbying itself. Their messages are less concise as infighting goes on while the Pope grows older, causing their decrees to often become contradictive on issues. With a crop of fairly liberal Christians and Catholics to contrast the fundamentalist, we're seeing a generation of politicians that pick and chose their own value system, so of course that's going to threaten the fundamentalist Christian special interest groups who have redefined themselves in the last ten years.
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I agree. But I think this is more a question of American Catholicism than merely Catholicism itself (which I think you allude to below). I think other heavily Catholic countries, such as Mexico and perhaps even France, are on the whole more in line with the Church's teachings. The impression I've gotten is that the European/Rome relationship has been breaking down in Europe, but it still seems more cohesive to me than it is here in the states. I think the other problem is the layers of power and auhority within the Church. Believe me, I don't want to see the Church reach a point where the Pope has dictatorial power over the entire faith, b/c that would only lead us back to the distrustful days of "Rum and Romanism" here in America, me thinks.
But I think you're right, with an aging pope, a confused denomination, several layers of authority here in America, it leaves the faith open to wide interpretation. Some might see this as advantageous, but it seems to me that it has created a far too autonomous Church, where people can use Catholic concepts and rules to suit their own purposes.
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r that a good amount of Religious Americans pay ties to their Church. A good deal of our social programs are tied to religious organizations, and it builds an incredible loyalty even beyond the stereotypical idea of a bible thumper voter. I'm sure from their perspective it's the opposite... that you can't look at a guy like Ted Kennedy and think "well he's a good Catholic boy, it's safe to vote for him, he'll agree with me on abortion".
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Right, and speaking as a Catholic who enjoys that sense of community and "association," I understand what you're saying (I think). I certainly don't think we should go back to the party machine days where churches were bound to ward leaders and labor unions. I just prefer the non-partisan approach the Church has traditionally taken here in America. I think it allowed them to lobby effectively while allowing a
degree of voting autonomy to the Catholic voter.
I see another part of the problem being the restructuring our political system has taken. With the death ofmachine politics, particularly in the urban areas, the Catholic vote has sort of become the "undeclared electorate." Granted, Irish-Catholics are no longer the lead character in a Horatio Alger story, but being working class, Irish, not rich but not poor, and CATHOLIC once served as a binding force, typically for the Democrats. But the Democratic Party, not to get into details, essentially abandoned that electorate, leaving them up for grabs. Now we're sort of like the wets or the progressives, searching around for the party that best suits our needs.