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Zomboid · #51

Saw it, wasn't as good as the first and the speeches were long and repetitive.

I'll agree about the action scenes kicking total ass though.

Mockery · #52

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundtest

...but I would like to hear Mr. Sarcastic's thoughts on the cave rave scene.

(if you mean me and not the character) I already commented on that one...

Minus a few cheesy moments (ie: the drawn-out love scene) I love what they did with the story.

And unlike some people, I did enjoy most of the dialogue in the film.

Anybody who doesn't agree with me, can wipe my ass with silk.

soundtest · #53

In fact, I did mean the character. I guess I should have typed Mister.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockery

wipe my ass with silk

I watched it in Montreal, and that scene got quite a chuckle.

Matt Harty · #54

Quote:

Furthermore, the reason why Neo could stop those Sentinels in rel life might be up to the fact that he went for the choice of saving Trinity instead of Zion, which, as the Architect said, would lead to some kind of strange chain reaction inside the Matrix, which might have been the cause for Neo being able to use his powers outside of the Matrix as well.

In the archetects speech, he basically explained that Zion was just another part of the Matrix. Him and the Oracle were just source code.

The reason for Zion was the for the people noticing something wrong in their world to break free, and therefore by choice be free.

The problem is that as more people free themselves, there is "the one" who comes along and the Matrix is reset by the person making the wrong choice in the end.

Now Neo is the 1st to make a seperate choice, and is obviously going to be the first to break out of the Zion program.

Hence him feeling different, and being able to destroy sentinals.

Protoclown · #55

I have a couple friends who I'm debating with about the end of the film, and these two guys say that Neo made the same choice as his five predecessors. That they ALL chose the door to go back into the Matrix rather than go to the source. They say the Architect WANTED him to go back into the Matrix and he was manipulated into choosing Trinity.

I have to wonder if they watched the same movie I did...my understanding of it was that Neo was the first one to even be GIVEN a real choice. For the the other guys who were not in love, it was a rather simple matter. They can save humanity...or not.

They also think that some of the Neos on the monitors were his predecessors. I always thought that his predecessors were DIFFERENT GUYS, not clones of Neo.

I don't know where they get these crazy ideas.

Mockery · #56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protoclown

I don't know where they get these crazy ideas.

Kids these days, I tell ya. Seriously though, I think Neo is the first to make a different choice... just as you said, because he was the first one to be in a different situation (him being in love).

On a sidenote, I downloaded the entire musical score (disc 2 of the soundtrack) and it fucking RULES. Then again, it's making me angry too because I keep wanting to see the Freeway scene over and over any time I heard the music. Don Davis is the man.

Skulhedface · #57

Regarding what Proto said about the predecessors being clones of Neo...

Maybe that's not entirely true. Could have been a computer generated construct meant to manipulate Neo into going through the door that the Architect wanted him to go through, and being that the Architect did know a lot about Neo and his possible reactions, was able to generate video based on all those reactions. He's said that this would be the 6th time the One has come through, but it sounded like there were a lot more than 5 responses (not counting our present Neo) when the Architect would ask Neo a question and the "other Neos" would answer it. It's more probability than certainty, and maybe the latest Neo caught on to that, or less nobly, he just would've rather saved Trinity.

FS · #58

Good theory on the myriad Neo images. When I saw the movie I didn't read anything special into it, but that sounds reasonable enough.

One thing I just remembered, what was up with Neo using "the Force" to snatch those Sai? Unless it was some kind of Star Wars tribute, it seemed kind of awkward to me. It was the one moment in that fight scene that made me cock an eyebrow.

Mockery · #59

He's The One now though, he can do pretty much anything he wants in the Matrix... including perform bare-handed surgery. :o

Did anybody notice that when the architect was talking about the grotesqueries of human nature, George W. Bush appeared on some of the tv screens in the background?

I love it.

Vibecrewangel · #60

Johnny

I'm going to sort of expand on what JHorton said. Hopefully, I won't slaughter this too much. It's theoretical math and I am just starting to grasp the concept. I've been teaching myself using the Matrix and Run Lola Run as my way to view the concept. Bear in mind, I have taught all of this to myself. If I am off base and you know it I would LOVE the input.

First, you have to look at existance as a 3 dimensional infinite grid. There is energy that moves through the grid. These energies are time, space and conciousness. Because these are all infinate anything is possible. For the sake of this, I am going to take a small section of the grid to work with. First, space. Space will fill up a section of the grid and make up the area of the Matrix. Time will run from the creation of the Matrix to the destruction of the Matrix. Say left to right over the section of the grid filled by space. Now you need to add conciousness. Conciousness will be human thought. It will run from top to bottom through the section of the grid. You now have time and conciousness intersecting in a set area of space known as the matrix. Events occur only at points of intersection.

The One is a conciousness at the point of a certain event. The One is created only at this event. Until this event The One does not exist. Every conciousness is a possibility. The closer you conciousness is to the time space intersection the more of a potential you are. In the first movie Neo and the other potentials are the ones closest to that intersection. Any one of them could be The One. The Oracle tells Neo he is not The One because at that time no one is. The event that creates The One has not occured. The kid with the spoon understands how the Matrix works. He uses the spoon to explain the concept to Neo. The spoon represents the future event. Thus, it does not exist. There is no spoon. (yet) He tells Neo not to try to bend it as that is impossible. You can not change the future from the now. He tells him to realize that it is not the spoon that bends only himself. His choices can lead him closer or further from the event and is what changes the outcome. Both the Oracle and the kid are teaching Neo how the Matrix works.

SPOILERS AHEAD

In the second movie Neo has learned more about the grid and how to maipulate it.

Neo has now also begun to "see" possible events on the grid. But, he is still having trouble understanding that they are only possible. Choices, his and those of others can change the event. When he sees Trinity die he is seeing a possible future. The kid with the spoon sees more including the possible choices for Neo. He is trying to help Neo make the right choice. But, he can not tell him what choice to make as then it isn't actually a choice. Instead he sends the spoon. The spoon this time represents the event of Trinitys death. In other words, don't try to stop the event before it happens, only try to move yourself towards the event. Neo doesn't get it.

He tries to alter the event by asking Trinity not to go. He has effectivly limited her choices at a point in time this moved her conciousness closer to the event. Since Trinity was forced to stay her next possible choice was to stay put or go help. She chose to help. Again she moves closer to the event. If she had gone on the original mission, she may have been on another part of the grid and her choices might have kept her away from the event.
When Neo meets the Architect , the Architect explains the Matrix to him in more detail. On one level of the grid are the sleeping humans. They are limited to certain choices because they don't know any others exist. The ones that get woken up now have more choices and can potentialy move through more of the grid. The more you learn about the Matrix the more choices you have. The more choices the more movement.
Now, human conciousness is bound by certain perceptions. Time is linear. Conciousness can only be in one place at one time. No two of the same energy can be in the same space at the same time. Physical is real. This limits their choices such as jumping from one point to another. The programs are are not bound the same as the humans. This why the agents can jump to an event and force the occupying conciousness out. Smith, is bound by even less. He has figured out that his conciousness can be in more than one place at one time.
If a conciousness were to realize it was just energy, not a specific energy it would have no limits at all. Of course, this leads to you are everything and everything is you. This means everything is a single point. Existance becomes a cingularity and collapses in on itself. Once on the other side it is all possibilities again. Chaos to order to balance and back to chaos again.
This is the basis of Buddhist thought as well.

I could go on for hours.....
I hope this is at least a bit understandable.

In Run Lola Run, they have figured out how to move their conciousness on the time line. But, they can only move as far back as when they learned of the event they are trying to change. That's why she starts at the call. She then moves through the grid looking for choices that will lead them farther away from the the event. He is doing the same.

wreckreation · #61

fuckin hippies. movies are movies and they make them to be cool. If you try to read too much into them you will just be let down.

Vibecrewangel · #62

:P wreck :P

I actually started my post wanting only to show that the spoon was very important. Unfortunately, to explain the spoon I had to explain the theory. I would have used a spiritual version but for the fact that the matrix is based on code.

Rez · #63

in all this thread i agree with proto 100%

here's something i posted in other forums that doesnt necessarily fit totally here, since most of you liked it, but it's an argument nonetheless
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*FUCKING SPOILERS OKAY?*

quote:
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over philosophical
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maybe. the scene with the french guy was overly done, but that was pretty much it. everything else was pretty straightforward. cause, effect, choices and lack of. wow.

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but there's also two sequences in which you are actually BORED. true blue boredom.
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ok, i want to hear it. i was engrossed in everything this movie had to offer, because i believe nothing was written into this movie by accident or just because. this third one is going to tie everything up so spectacularly that these "boring scenes" will probably be the most important. depends on which one you were talking about.

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the rave/love scene was crap/forgettable/useless/awful
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you guys are on something completely off. that scene was ART. it was one of the best love scene's i've seen in a movie in a VERY long time. the music (i dont know if it was juno or not) by itself was crap, but it was so simple that it not only fit, but even enhanced it for me. you goons can troop in here and flame me, it wont change a bit.

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Not one but THREE Juno Reactor songs
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i wonder if those were during a few fight scenes because i was questioning it as soon as it started (it was kinda crap) but it took such a back seat after 15 seconds it never fucking mattered anyway.

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Lots of bad dialogue
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listening for it, didnt hear any, sorry.

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Everything Zion related was kind of lame. Those annoying "Stomp" percussion people are crap. They are like a virus, getting into every part of pop culture... go bash a trash can somewhere else, you dropouts!
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hey i think they're decent. nothing new, but ok

, as for zion being lame, i certainly didnt think so, it was just really primal. and not in a bad way. i thought that scene was really well done guys.

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SOOOOOOOOO chessy. So so chessy. The "I squeeze your heart" scene looks cool but i laughed SO much!
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again, is it cool to hate heavy romance in an action movie, especially for this one, which was really well done? and as for those that said that we didnt see their relationship, does he have to constantly look her in the eye every single time and say something dumb? no, it's just how it was. it was love, they understood it once they said it once. neo was worried about trinity, and trinity promised him she wouldnt leave. that was about all that was really said. and all that was needed.

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Mr millions smiths
blah!
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i say fucking cool. and they managed to give a good reason why he could do that so many times. they already have showed his overzealousness in the first matrix, so it would only make sense he would try to grab all as an independent.

and also.. about the fight scenes being too long. do you people just let these things whizz by you? the fucking detail is astounding! sheesh!

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There is NO story in here, is a mess that at the end they try to fix with the architect but is too late .
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NO STORY???!!! they took the entire story of the last one, and systematically made it les and less grand as they replaced with another story that made the one, the agents, zion, and everything seem so impossibly trivial! which means that the ending's just going to be fantastically mind-blowing (in case you didnt notice, i have total faith in this movie). come on. remember in the first one the agents seems to be the be all end all, the gods, those that you had to avoid at all costs, and this ones makes them a TOOL. it rocked me back is what it did. morpheus' prophecy: wrong. the one: the one in a SERIES of ones. warring programs inside even the matrix, which gets trivialized by another reality altogether as humankind gets created again and again.

i'm tired, but i'll dive into this again, since i thought this was fucking fantastic second movie. which'll be my last point. the first movie set (excellently) the ground work, the concepts, the beginning. the second movie is a fight to resolve problems and events in the first one. so what will it mainly have? action. yeah. and oh, wait nothing's really going to be resolved in this one, because the third one is going to do it! why the hell was neo able to do in the real world what he could only do in the matrix? or is that even the real world. why could he do that, then fall into a coma?! you guys must realize that there's stilla third movie that's obviously going to make everything fit!

Vibecrewangel · #64

I don't believe Morpeheus is wrong about the one. However, he believes in fate and destiny. This is a possibility. However, since this version of the matrix allows choice, it lowers the odds of that possibility being the one that comes to pass.

Protoclown · #65

ROTTEN FRUIT BELOW

I realize everyone has their own personal taste, and some people just aren't going to like this movie.

But I have to question the comprehension of anyone who said the story was "boring" or that there in fact WAS no story at all. To anyone who said these things...I feel that the story was probably beyond your grasp. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable with movie that contains more tits and random explosions. Might I recommend "2 Fast 2 Furious"?

For my money, the second Matrix movie really added so many levels of complexity to the initial story. Like Rez said, it really trivializes so much of the first movie and shows you that the One isn't all that he appeared to be. He's just another cog in the system, albeit an important one.

Granted, any of us can only comprehend the story but so much at this point, given the fact that we're dealing with limited information that leads to several possible avenues of speculation. We'll have to wait and see how things turn out in the third movie, but so far they've done a fantastic job of upping the ante and throwing our perceptions further askew with each new chapter of the story. I have no doubt that some serious revelations await us in the final installment that will yet again change the way we view what came before.

Boring? Hardly.

Intriguing? Complex? Fascinating? Unexpected? You betcha.

Vibecrewangel · #66

I have to agree with Proto. The more I think about the movie the more I realize that my inital perception was correct, but not deep enough.

The spiritual aspect was clearly on the surface. I was upset that I felt it was too obvious. But then, that was the point. It moved to the surface and another layer was revealed below. I'm sure my new perception is due in part to my new interest in theoretical math meets spiritualism. Concepts inside of concepts.

Anonymous · #67

DO WE REALLY HAVE TO PUT SPOILER NOTICES IN HERE

I don't think they programmed the matrix after neo. They wouldn't have know who neo was until he was already created. He was not created by the architect as such.. He isn't programmed to be an anomaly. He is the undesirable product of an imperfect system. With an imperfect system you expect anomalies.. and develop a way to 'control' them. Whether or not neo chose what the other Ones did shouldn't matter because the matrix obviosly has defensive code and knowing what the other choice was it should be prepared to deal with it. Well, you'd think so anyway

Ok so one thing that I wonder about is... the frenchy guy says to neo about his predecessors (they have come to him before. I am assuming they must all get the key from him to get to the architect?) But then the key maker dies with neo. So either the key maker is recreated each time, or the One must always find some other way to get through the door to the architect, or the key maker always survived before with the other Ones and this is the first time he dies.

Skulhedface · #68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vibecrewangel

Johnny

I'm going to sort of expand on what JHorton said. Hopefully, I won't slaughter this too much. It's theoretical math and I am just starting to grasp the concept. I've been teaching myself using the Matrix and Run Lola Run as my way to view the concept. Bear in mind, I have taught all of this to myself. If I am off base and you know it I would LOVE the input.

First, you have to look at existance as a 3 dimensional infinite grid. There is energy that moves through the grid. These energies are time, space and conciousness. Because these are all infinate anything is possible. For the sake of this, I am going to take a small section of the grid to work with. First, space. Space will fill up a section of the grid and make up the area of the Matrix. Time will run from the creation of the Matrix to the destruction of the Matrix. Say left to right over the section of the grid filled by space. Now you need to add conciousness. Conciousness will be human thought. It will run from top to bottom through the section of the grid. You now have time and conciousness intersecting in a set area of space known as the matrix. Events occur only at points of intersection.

The One is a conciousness at the point of a certain event. The One is created only at this event. Until this event The One does not exist. Every conciousness is a possibility. The closer you conciousness is to the time space intersection the more of a potential you are. In the first movie Neo and the other potentials are the ones closest to that intersection. Any one of them could be The One. The Oracle tells Neo he is not The One because at that time no one is. The event that creates The One has not occured. The kid with the spoon understands how the Matrix works. He uses the spoon to explain the concept to Neo. The spoon represents the future event. Thus, it does not exist. There is no spoon. (yet) He tells Neo not to try to bend it as that is impossible. You can not change the future from the now. He tells him to realize that it is not the spoon that bends only himself. His choices can lead him closer or further from the event and is what changes the outcome. Both the Oracle and the kid are teaching Neo how the Matrix works.

SPOILERS AHEAD

In the second movie Neo has learned more about the grid and how to maipulate it.

Neo has now also begun to "see" possible events on the grid. But, he is still having trouble understanding that they are only possible. Choices, his and those of others can change the event. When he sees Trinity die he is seeing a possible future. The kid with the spoon sees more including the possible choices for Neo. He is trying to help Neo make the right choice. But, he can not tell him what choice to make as then it isn't actually a choice. Instead he sends the spoon. The spoon this time represents the event of Trinitys death. In other words, don't try to stop the event before it happens, only try to move yourself towards the event. Neo doesn't get it.

He tries to alter the event by asking Trinity not to go. He has effectivly limited her choices at a point in time this moved her conciousness closer to the event. Since Trinity was forced to stay her next possible choice was to stay put or go help. She chose to help. Again she moves closer to the event. If she had gone on the original mission, she may have been on another part of the grid and her choices might have kept her away from the event.
When Neo meets the Architect , the Architect explains the Matrix to him in more detail. On one level of the grid are the sleeping humans. They are limited to certain choices because they don't know any others exist. The ones that get woken up now have more choices and can potentialy move through more of the grid. The more you learn about the Matrix the more choices you have. The more choices the more movement.
Now, human conciousness is bound by certain perceptions. Time is linear. Conciousness can only be in one place at one time. No two of the same energy can be in the same space at the same time. Physical is real. This limits their choices such as jumping from one point to another. The programs are are not bound the same as the humans. This why the agents can jump to an event and force the occupying conciousness out. Smith, is bound by even less. He has figured out that his conciousness can be in more than one place at one time.
If a conciousness were to realize it was just energy, not a specific energy it would have no limits at all. Of course, this leads to you are everything and everything is you. This means everything is a single point. Existance becomes a cingularity and collapses in on itself. Once on the other side it is all possibilities again. Chaos to order to balance and back to chaos again.
This is the basis of Buddhist thought as well.

I could go on for hours.....
I hope this is at least a bit understandable.

In Run Lola Run, they have figured out how to move their conciousness on the time line. But, they can only move as far back as when they learned of the event they are trying to change. That's why she starts at the call. She then moves through the grid looking for choices that will lead them farther away from the the event. He is doing the same.

Very well written Vibe, but I have one catch-all.

In the first movie, it's never directly said, but implied that The Oracle had told Morpheus that he would find The One. Morpheus knew upon finding Neo that he had found The One. However, when Morpheus had found Neo, the events that led up to Neo being The One had not happened yet. That's the only catch I can find in an otherwise sound theory. And it's a small catch but an important one nonetheless.

(edit) But in support of your theory and arguing the claim that the previous "Ones" were Neo clones, not even the agents knew that Neo was the One, only that they were looking for the man Morpheus was searching for. Maybe because the Agents were actually kept in the dark (some deeper plan?) but you'd think they'd have known who The One is, after all, if the Architect still exists throughout all 6 versions (so far) of the Matrix, and the Agents as well (remember, Smith knew the history of the Matrix as well, as if he'd been around the whole time) then why would it have been so hard to find the NEW One? ALl the Agents would've had to do is just remember what he looks like, slap out a coupla wanted posters, and Bob's yer uncle.

Anonymous · #69

You people think too much.

Protoclown · #70

I think the theory that all "The Ones" have been clones of Neo is pure shit. I don't think anyone here has supported that theory, have they? I know I brought it up, but only to illustrate how strange I thought my friends' ideas were.

I think The One was definitely a COMPLETELY different person every time. And I've no doubt that with every incarnation of The Matrix and/or Zion, the Oracle plants the seeds that will inspire someone to seek out The One. This time it was Morpheus. Before it could have been Barnacle Bob, or someone else.

I think Agent Smith going rogue is a new element that hasn't occurred in any of the 5 previous instances, and I have a feeling that he's going to play a MAJOR role in the endgame and the final escape/breakdown of The Matrix, whether intentional or not. He's like a virus now, and the other Agents don't seem to know how to deal with him. They also seem surprised by his presence, which leads me to believe that the System isn't necessarily aware of Smith's return or what he's capable of now.

And to all of you who are saying we're reading too much into this or thinking too much about what is essentially an action movie, well, poo poo to you, I say! This is exactly what a good movie, no, a good STORY is supposed to do. Get the audience thinking and discussing ideas. Pure entertainment is fun too, a little fluff here and there is good for everyone. But movies like this, while entertaining, transcend that "pure entertainment" category and are actually WORTH discussing the meaning of and message behind. I'm not saying that these are the deepest films ever made. But they're deep enough to get a good discussion going. They are worthy.

I mean, what else should we discuss? The philosophical layers of "XXX"?

Anonymous · #71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protoclown

And to all of you who are saying we're reading too much into this or thinking too much about what is essentially an action movie, well, poo poo to you, I say! This is exactly what a good movie, no, a good STORY is supposed to do. Get the audience thinking and discussing ideas. Pure entertainment is fun too, a little fluff here and there is good for everyone. But movies like this, while entertaining, transcend that "pure entertainment" category and are actually WORTH discussing the meaning of and message behind. I'm not saying that these are the deepest films ever made. But they're deep enough to get a good discussion going. They are worthy.

Bah. Having a story full of vague philosophical implications and making your own fun by filling in the missing parts of the story like some 138-minute session of Mad Libs isn't my idea of a good story.

All I'm saying is this: I liked Agent Smith, and that's about it. I didn't really like the albino twins, the kung fu program that "only knows someone after he fights them," or the Antediluvian... Meridian... Whatever the hell the evil Frenchman was called.

I don't know; maybe I'm just angry because for me, Keanu will never be any more than just Ted Theodore Logan, or because Enter the Matrix was bland and uninspired. Whatever the case, all I saw was a neat action movie that a lot of people are reading too much into.

wreckreation · #72

word.

Vibecrewangel · #73

If you don't care about the matrix concept don't bother reading this. It isn't going to be about the movie itself.

I'm going to do my best to make this short. It is really hard to put into words the visual aspect of a concept that is only in my brain. However someone in the philo forum said that if you are able to understand something but can't explain it to anyone else it serves no purpose. I do not agree with that, however it gave me another point of view and I always try to take those into consideration when I am working on things. I understand the theory (I think) but I want to work on explaining it to others. Maybe then I can do it with other concepts.

Though the matrix is part of something infinate, it is only a part and has a limited number of possibilities based on the factors used to design it. The grid is simply the form I use to define a section of an endless expanse of energy. There are other forms that can be used, but this one works for me.
The architect builds the framework of the system as I described in the previous post. Initally he built a perfect system a system that was mathmaticaly balanced. A perfectly balanced system is a system with no "movement". With no movement there is no function. Thus it fails. So the architect had to design an imperfect system to assure it didn't stall out and fail.
Space (the earth and all stuff) and time are set first. Every possible moment in the time frame has to move through every possible section of space. This creates the possible when and where for events to occur. At this point every area is a possible location. Next the consciousness is added. In the matrix there are different types of consciousness. The humans. The programs. And the machines. Each is given it's own set of basic perameters. This determines how each consciousness will appear to the others at any event.
These are then set at designated places within the matrix.
Each individual consciousness is set at a particular point in space at the begining of time. Now areas of possible events are limited. Since time moves at a constant rate it will be impossible for any event to take place at certain points.
Here is where it gets tricky. Each consciousness becomes self aware at the begining of the time segment. Time moves at a constant speed through space and as each consciosness makes a choice this eliminates more possible events. Every single choice effects the possibilities of other choices.
Certain programs are able to view the matrix and all movement within it. The oracle is one of them. Time has passed and Morpheus is awake. He makes choices that move him through the grid. Some of his choices are effected by the choices of others. He goes to see the Oracle. The Oracle views the matrix and is able to see where the event of finding the one will happen. Morpheus can still make choices, however the choices available to him will only lead him to this event. She tells him he will find the one. Morpheus has now been given a destiny. Nothing is altered by this as it was the only possible outcome.
At this same time there are still too many possible potentials to determine who Morpheus will find. As it grows closer to the event it becomes clear to that it is Neo.
At the time Neo goes to see the Oracle he is still only a potential. So are others. This is why she tells him he is not the one.

The clone issue is easy to explain. The one is not the same consciousness each time. The one is whatever consciousness present at the time of the event. Who that is is determind by the movements made through the entire matrix. The time and place of the event might not even be the same as those would also be effected by movements.

In this theory there is no real physical world. Only levels of the Matrix. So far we have seen 2 levels. The programs and the sleepers function in one. The unplugged fuction there and in the next level with the machines and those never plugged in.