planned parenthood pledge and picket

[glowbelly]

brilliant.

http://www.ppsp.org/PledgePicket-index.asp

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"We will place a signoutside the health center that tracks pledges and makes protesters fully aware that their actions are benefiting PPSP."

Or, the protesters will spin it so that it looks like PP is raising money off of "victims" of abortion. Sounds like a pretty silly campaign to me.

A really good way to prevent the actual harassment stuff would've been for our congress to re-work the tax code during the debate over thebancruptcy bill. Protesters who blockade doorways to clinics and get violent often walk away with minimal fines, because they found a loophole in the tax code which allows them to declare bancruptcy the day before they protest. Unfortunately that wasn't important to our congress.

Non-violent protesting outside of clinics, which don't obstruct doorways or intimidate, are ok in my book.

[glowbelly]

either way, as long as protesters are there, the amount of money going to planned parenthood goes up.

i don't think it's silly at all.

[sadie]

tehee. i love it. the protestors themselves will be benefitting planned parenthood just by showing up. it's a clever, peaceful way to keep them at bay.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

How exactly does it keep them at bey? The money is counted for every protester. That means if you just show up peacefully with a sign and stand there, you're "contributing to PP."

If anything, that might incite crazier demonstrations. Hell, if they're sponsoring me, I might as well put on a good show. 10 ft. high pictures of aborted fetuses, and noise makers!

[sadie]

why would protestors want to come protest if their presence will equal greater proceeds to planned parenthood? :alliteration

[Dr. Boogie]

To see the giant fetus!

[Lil' Johnny]

More like unplanned parenthood

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by sadie

why would protestors want to come protest if their presence will equal greater proceeds to planned parenthood? :alliteration

The fact that PP is essentially "sponsoring" these protesters will add fuel to the fire, and draw out more protesters.

See, this campaign doesn't say "we don't like aggressive, law breaking protesters." This plan says "they shouldn't even protest because they're wrong, and I'm right."

Pretty condescending, and IMO, a pretty bad idea. I could probably think of ten ways to counter it and use it to my own advantage.

[sadie]

i see your point; it's basically more of the back-and-forth egocentricity. but i don't think more people will come out if it means the organization they hate will profit from it.

[Sethomas]

But they only profit if people are willing to actually thow money at the problem. I still fail to see why PP is considered non-profit, especially when it does liberty-stifling shit like this.

[sadie]

that's a good point. maybe no one with any huge amounts of money will participate. i'm not a planned parenthood supporter, though i appreciate that they provide the services they do for people who choose to do what is legally within their rights to do. but is it your right to harass these people? to curse at them and even try to harm them? i'm not saying all protestors are like this, and i could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me this organization is aiming this campaign at the peaceful protestors.

[Sethomas]

Okay, let's make a rediculously high assumption and say that 50% of the protesters are beligerent violent assholes. That still means that the company seeks to earn the remaining 50% off the disciplined non-violent types.

I'm personally against abortion, and that should be obvious. Contraception is idiosyncratically to religion a sin, but it should be perfectly legal and upheld. If PP just wants to distribute information on how to prevent pregnancy, what to do when raped, hand out condoms, hell, throw around the pill all it wants, I'd be fine with that and would be glad that such an institution exists. It might be harmful to my utopian Civitate Dei in some metaphysical sense, but that's where society stands.

But the truth is, whether or not the organization is tax-free or not, at the individual level there are abortionists who realize that there's big money in vacuuming embryonic matter. They're not going to act out of altruistic loyalty to the pillars of the organization, they're going to seek profit. That's why I believe that if abortion is going to be legal, it should only be done under highly evaluated circumstances by practitioners who are disconnected to the decision of whether to abort or not.

[sadie]

would any doctor be disconnected? furthermore, most doctors who are morally against abortion won't perform abortions, and i don't blame them.

[Sethomas]

It's quite possible to have someone evaluate the need for abortion and have it undertaken by someone else. Yes, I agree that it would be awkward for a general practitioner to be the one responsible, but a specialist in the OBGyn department could take the responsibility.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by sadie

i see your point; it's basically more of the back-and-forth egocentricity. but i don't think more people will come out if it means the organization they hate will profit from it.

Yeah, I think the really extreme anti-abortion protesters and organizations just assume that those wicked abortionists are going to get money regardless, either from soulless liberals or Hollywood.

[glowbelly]

It's quite possible to have someone evaluate the need for abortion and have it undertaken by someone else.

this made my head hurt

[kellychaos]

Abortions would happen anyway to those who really want them. The question is whether the opportunity for legal and sterile abortions are made available for those who do want them. I wouldn't be for abortion in my own personal life but I'm all for the personal choice and safety of those that make that choice. Live and let live. I don't see this as "standing on the fence" either. It's more a matter of "live and let live" and not piously making decisions for others.

P.S. And no, I'm not for government-sponsored abortions.

As to this particular article; however, I don't see this detracting from the fundamentalist types who invested the time to protest and strongly oppose abortion. They are too self-absorbed, self-important and pious to think that their cause is wasted, that the pledges will benefit the opposition or that they will largely be ignored. They are doing God's will for God's sake.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Because people who oppose abortion are merely "fundamentalist types," and those who are, for example, having their THIRD abortion are perfectly rational.

Sounds like a balanced argument to me.

[kellychaos]

Those who take the time to protest in abortions are more likely to be fundamentalist types.

And if it's their 10th abortion and they paid for it with own funds, what business it to you?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

My business in it is the same reason you said you wouldn't be for it in your own life, which is the standard line that everybody gives.

I think it's wrong, and the reason we have all of this sexual education, aside from STDs, is to prevent unnecessary pregnancies, right? Don't most, even those who support abortion, see it as a societal ill? Isn't the saying from the 90's keep abortion safe, available, and seldom???

Well, abortions have decreased, and teenage sex has also decreased. Sexual education appears to have been an overall positive, so shouldn't those who are still using abortion like a condom be criticized? Isn't it too mentally and physically harmful to be used in such a manner???

We have ethical medical procedure practices in most states that prevent certain types of cosmetic surgery from being practiced. Doesn't abortion warrant the same kind of care and scrutiny???

[kellychaos]

If abortions weren't legal, people would find ugly, underground, unsterile ways to get them. Whether you're for or against them in your personal life, they will persist. It's a question of how not of will.

At the same time, I'm for a lot of the tennets that PP endorse about hygeine, safe sex, contraception, ect. I don't necessarily think that these beliefs betray my earlier stated beliefs.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by kellychaos

If abortions weren't legal, people would find ugly, underground, unsterile ways to get them. Whether you're for or against them in your personal life, they will persist. It's a question of how not of will.

Fair enough, but a lot of people will do things if they want it bad enough. My question to you was do you or don't ou believe that abortion, while maintaining that it should be legal and available, is an overall negative???

[glowbelly]

while bringing into the world an unloved, uncared for and unwanted child is a positive.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

That is a terribly wishy-washy argument, IMO. Who decides that that child won't be loved? Who decides that that child won't have the advantages or abilities in life that others do?

It seems to be on the slippery slope towards eugenics to me when you start saying "well, this kid's life was gonna suck anyway."