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  #76  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Aug 26th, 2005, 01:47 PM       
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Originally Posted by mburbank
The 'proof' you are looking for usually comes a lot of miles down the road. I'm a believer in transperancy and agressive watchdogs, because this shit almost always gets out of control. Couple that with the fact that this administration views secrecy as being next to Godliness and I hate to think of all the stuff that's going to under our national rock when it finally gets tuned over.
I think you hold a slightly unrealistic expectation of war in general. In war, innocent people get harmed in the process, and there's often a lot of grey area between what's right, and what needs to be done.

I'm not condoning this behavior, but i am asking for an alternative. Should every soldier have their own mini-press corp. follow them around, take pictures, and record their frustrations? Should the Pentagon put out a PDF version of all their military plans for a given week? Does this sound like it would fly in a place where journalists have been the targets of kidnappings and beheadings...?

What level of transparency would make you happy, and would you care if it jeopardized winning the war?
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 12:48 PM       
From the Weekly Standard:


The War Presidency

From the September 5 / September 12, 2005 issue: The success of the Bush presidency depends on his success as commander in chief.

by William Kristol
09/05/2005, Volume 010, Issue 47


"During the last few decades, the terrorists grew to believe that if they hit America hard, as in Lebanon and Somalia, America would retreat and back down. . . . So now they're trying to break our will with acts of violence. . . . Their goal is to force us to retreat. . . . We will stay on the offense. We'll complete our work in Afghanistan and Iraq. An immediate withdrawal . . . would only embolden the terrorists and create a staging ground to launch more attacks against America and free nations. So long as I'm the president, we will stay, we will fight, and we will win the war on terror."

--George W. Bush, speaking to National Guard soldiers and their families, Nampa, Idaho, August 24, 2005


THESE WORDS NEEDED TO BE SAID. In the face of mixed news from Iraq, and mixed signals from the administration, some of the president's supporters and subordinates have been going wobbly. They've been denying that the war on terror is a war, or that Iraq is central to that war. They've been defining down success in Iraq, and for that matter victory in the broader war on terror. Fortunately, the president made clear on Wednesday that he isn't buying the defeatism. He isn't heading for the exits.

Others want to. Republican strategist Grover Norquist, for example, recently told the New York Times: "If Iraq is in the rearview mirror in the '06 election, the Republicans will do fine. But if it's still in the windshield, there are problems." Norquist was reflecting real GOP congressional unease about the war and its implications for 2006.

But would it really be possible to put Iraq in the "rearview mirror" by the fall of 2006, even if we started leaving now? In any case, what Bush did in Idaho was to sever the link between war policy and the 2006 elections. He made clear that his time horizon is 2008. Congress can worry and complain, but Bush is not going to let his policy--U.S. foreign policy--be driven by such worries and complaints. So Republican senators and congressmen can stop the hand-wringing that the war isn't proceeding according to their electoral calendars. Instead, they can help the administration make the case for the necessity of victory, and could even follow the lead of John McCain in providing serious and constructive criticism of the war effort.

Meanwhile, the estimable George Will proclaimed last week that U.S. hopes for democracy in Iraq were "delusional," and that we had to be wary of further "overreaching." In particular, he took aim at a suggestion made in these pages some seven months ago that we consider bombing Syrian military facilities and/or occupying Syrian border towns in order to prevent terrorists from using Syria as a sanctuary from which to enter Iraq in order to kill Americans and Iraqis. No. Will said, "U.S. forces already have quite enough bombing and occupying chores."

Really? Occupying--maybe. But bombing? Is our Air Force overextended right now? Are we so weak that we can't deter or punish Syria? Some Bush supporters, especially those already inclined toward world-weary skepticism, have become convinced that we can't or won't fight the war so as to win it. That's a problem for the president. The solution is to explain that we have a strategy to win--not a strategy to withdraw--and to encourage the military to be aggressive and imaginative in carrying out that strategy, and to give it all the resources it needs to follow through.

Then, on Thursday, the day after the president's speech, the Financial Times ran a front-page story based on an interview with Major General Douglas Lute, director of operations at U.S. Central Command. Lute, still speaking off of old Rumsfeld talking points, and ignoring what the president had said a week before, said we were seeking to draw down troops over the next year in Iraq. Indeed, he seemed eager to proclaim this--and made the case for withdrawal based on Rumsfeldian dependency theory: "We believe at some point, in order to break this dependence on the . . . coalition, you simply have to back off and let the Iraqis step forward."

This is war-fighting as welfare reform. Is the problem with our allies and potential allies in Iraq really that they are too convinced we're staying? Isn't it more likely that they're now too worried that we're going to leave, creating a dangerous dynamic in which Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds each feel they have to fend for themselves?

And more important, if Iraq is the central front in the war on terror, who cares about dependency theory? Don't we need to defeat Zarqawi? Don't we need to dishearten terrorists in Iraq and around the world who, as the president said, "want us to retreat"? We need to win in Iraq. We're not doing someone else a favor. And in fact, private conversations suggest that the operational U.S. generals in the field (if not the planners at CENTCOM) are confident we can win--if we don't draw down troops too soon, and if we build up Iraqi troops to fight side by side with ours instead of pretending they can immediately replace ours.

There have been real failures in the execution of the war in Iraq, and a poor job has been done in recent months of explaining the war at home. On the latter front, Wednesday's speech is a good start. Now the president needs to ensure his own administration is executing a policy consistent with his words, and also that these words are followed up with many more. Wartime presidents need to explain and re-explain what's at stake. They need to keep the country informed about the war. They need to keep morale high. And they need to take command so that the military and political strategy aims at victory. The success of the Bush presidency depends on his success as commander in chief. So does the success of American foreign policy.


-William Kristol



© Copyright 2005, News Corporation, Weekly Standard, All Rights Reserved.
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  #78  
mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 01:36 PM       
"we will stay, we will fight, and we will win the war on terror"
W

"THESE WORDS NEEDED TO BE SAID."
-Kristol


Okay, first off, I think Kristol must be deaf, as I've heard pretty much this speech at VERY least once a month for over a year now.

Second, and here lies my biggest problem, not just with W, but with this entire war...

What would winning the war on terror mean?

Me, I don't think you can win a war on a concept.

Far from thinking this is just bad grammar, I think it's deliberate. Crafting a ntional and foreigbn policy with a nebulous forever war at it's core is quite deliberate. We don't know really what the war on terror is. No one has bothered to say what winning it would mean, or how we would get there or even if it's possible. War time presidents are granted extraordinary powers. This administration intends for those powers to be held by the office of the presidency indefintely, and it's wider constituency believes their party can hoild on to that office from now on.

That doesn't mean terror isn't an issue. That doesn't mean there aren't terrorists. That doesn't mean the use of the military may not be legitimate. It DOES mean that we shouldn't be cowed into giving our government massive leeway for an undefined war. We have been in wars where we didn't know if we would win. We have been in wars we did not know the duration of. We have never been in a war where we had no idea what winning would be and no one would talk about it.

War on poverty? No one argued for war powers. War on drugs? No one argued for war powers. No one thought they were wars in anything but a rhetorical sense. There is an Iraq war. It could one day be 'won'. Does anyone think the war on terror is analagous?
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 04:50 PM       
Didn't we already give our government massive leeway during an undefeined war? The Cold War? Where we built up a massive arsenal of nuclear weapons capable of destroying the entire world. And you're worried about Bush getting some extra war time powers?

I've yet to see Bush turn this country into the facist theocracy I keep hearing is coming.

He did ban federal government money on stem cell research thou and he was able to look at what books I took out of the library for most of his first term.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 05:22 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
"we will stay, we will fight, and we will win the war on terror"
W

"THESE WORDS NEEDED TO BE SAID."
-Kristol


Okay, first off, I think Kristol must be deaf, as I've heard pretty much this speech at VERY least once a month for over a year now.
He said it that time on a military base. Sort of the choir, no? It seems like he says it a lot to you because you track him, Max. But Kristol's point is that Bush needs to talk about his plans, about winning, about logistics, and he needs to do it more. He doesn't do that, he talks in grand statements and hyperbole.

I think I heard Kristol support thisd point on TV by saying that Bush needs to essentially do fire-side chats, he needs to make his case to the people, and try to define the argument, rather than letting his silence do that. Unfortunately, his handlers might not have faith that he could be capable of that. I dunno.


Quote:
Far from thinking this is just bad grammar, I think it's deliberate. Crafting a ntional and foreigbn policy with a nebulous forever war at it's core is quite deliberate. We don't know really what the war on terror is. No one has bothered to say what winning it would mean, or how we would get there or even if it's possible. War time presidents are granted extraordinary powers. This administration intends for those powers to be held by the office of the presidency indefintely, and it's wider constituency believes their party can hoild on to that office from now on.
Well, I disagree with this. I think the Bush team has certainly exploited the political benefits of being at war, but every president would do that.

I think Bush has in fact stated a plan to combat terrorism, which is what has made this iraq war so questionable. People bought it when he said we'd fight terror by stopping the states and institutions that supported it. He told the American people Saddam had weapons, that he was best buddies with Osama, and that he supported terrorism (which he did, btw, on the latter). Now, with no WMDs showing up, and no clear ties to the Islamo-fascists that threaten us, people are finally beginning to wonder why we went in there in the first place, and does it indeed relate to the war on terrorism.



Quote:
War on poverty? No one argued for war powers. War on drugs? No one argued for war powers. No one thought they were wars in anything but a rhetorical sense. There is an Iraq war. It could one day be 'won'. Does anyone think the war on terror is analagous?
Nobody ever held the illusions that the war on terror would be quick and clear. I am one of those of the opinion that Iraq has now become a part of a broader war, thus making it crucial.

Winning in iraq however is a bit clearer than you assume-- that's why Kristol mentions bombing border villages in Syria. It may sound crazy to you (and probably is), but he is pointing out that a big part of this problem in iraq has nothing to do with actual IRAQIS.
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 05:26 PM       
Yes. It's the oil.

It's all about the oil.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 05:28 PM       
Who the heck even said that?

STAY TOPICAL!
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 05:31 PM       
Seriously? Four pages and no oil?

This place sucks now. I blame you and max for being such sensible commies.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 05:33 PM       
I've reverted to anarch-neo-communal-fascism.
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 05:36 PM       
Kev isn't left wing anymore, the meat has made him crazy.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 05:37 PM       
I think i'm still pretty Lefty, I just love war now apparently.
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Old Sep 1st, 2005, 09:32 PM       
it's okay kev, I like the new you.
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Old Sep 2nd, 2005, 08:19 AM       
I think winning the war in Iraq is theoretically possible.

I think winning the war on terror is not even an explicable concept, let alone possible. As long as there's no debate on that subject at the national political level, the whole idea that our objective is to 'win a war on terror' is carte blanche for a forever war.

And Kev, I never thought you ''loved the war". Just so you know.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 2nd, 2005, 08:35 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
I think winning the war on terror is not even an explicable concept, let alone possible. As long as there's no debate on that subject at the national political level, the whole idea that our objective is to 'win a war on terror' is carte blanche for a forever war.
The problem with "the war on terror" is that P.R. prevents us from saying what this war is really about. It's a war that started before 9/11, and yes, it's going to continue for a while.

Of course a war against terrorism can't truly be won, because that's a tactic, not an enemy. The enemy that nobody feels comfortable saying is Islamic extremism. No, it's not Islam, and it's not your typical Muslim. But the problem is that the ACTUAL problem is woven into the other two, and we need to pick it apart, and get at the root.

So how do you win a war against an ideology? That's the question.

Quote:
And Kev, I never thought you ''loved the war". Just so you know.
Oh, don't worry about it. I was mostly taking a jab at myself.
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