How bad is the Hammas victory?

[Abcdxxxx]

That's great, but since you like to distribute equal fault, what reasoning have you come up with for Israel? They're not holding up the Old Testament before going out on targeted killing missions. It's a secular nation.

[Kulturkampf]

I think we should work Hamas from this angle:


Palestinian groups like Hamas dress their kids in suicide bomber outfits and march them around as future pawns of their war against the Jewish people; I think it is disgusting and we should destroy Hamas, destroy the al-Aqsa martyrs brigade, and we should bring to justice everyone respnsible for these suicide attacks against the Israeli people.

Palestinian Apologists suck.

Any flamingo that is truly pink knows they are the enemy.

[Chojin]

Talked with a friend of mine whose mother is first-generation Israeli about the issue. Here's what he had to say:

33:47 Chojin: what do you think about hamas winning the palestinian election
34:00 Stovakhor: Honestly, I think its great for Israel
34:06 Chojin: why's that
34:09 Stovakhor: If you'd like, I'd be happy to explain why
34:13 Chojin: sure
34:36 Stovakhor: Hamas won't recognize Israel's right to exist
35:03 Stovakhor: So Israel has a clear, undebateable case for not negotiating. Since Hamas cannot accept any peace agreement since they don't recognize Israel
35:17 Stovakhor: that makes it easy for israel to continue Unilateral withdrawl.
35:40 Chojin: withdrawl?
35:56 Stovakhor: Its a free pass to do whatever they want, so long as they withdraw from the land. The palestinians essentially have given up the ability to negotiate border arrangements
36:15 Stovakhor: Israel has been pulling out of palestian land for several months
36:51 Stovakhor: but htey've been doing it without any kind of agreement, so the PA (palestian authority) has been upset because they haven't aggreed to the terms or the border Israel has been setting up
37:25 Stovakhor: With Hamas in power, there's no more negotiating of any kind. And Israel has a great reason to work outside of any agreement, unilaterally
37:31 Chojin: so how can israel pull out in a palestinian's view if they don't exist as a nation
37:58 Stovakhor: They recognize that israel exists, but not htat they have a RIGHT to exist.
38:14 Stovakhor: They believe Israel the country is illegal, and thus should be destroyd
38:27 Chojin: well my point is, anything short of moving out of the middle east isn't going to be seen as withdrawal
38:47 Stovakhor: Its a withdrawl, but not a "complete" withdrawl
39:15 Stovakhor: plus, if hamas engages in Terrorism, Israel's position becomes really strong
39:36 Stovakhor: Since the ruling party sponsoring terrorism. It's like the Taliban in afghanistan
40:18 Stovakhor: Which means, either a) Hamas no longer overtly supports terrorism, which is good. Or b) they do, and Israel gets to really do whatever it wants
41:06 Stovakhor: The only real downside that I see is that there is absolutely no hope, really, for Israel to get a peace agreement anymore
41:23 Stovakhor: but that isn't really that bad, becuase what were the odds of that anyway?
42:08 Stovakhor: I think this is fantastic from Israel's POV. Which is completely counterintuitive, and against what all the media is saying. But really, the media was surprised Hamas won, so it shows how little they know.
43:11 Chojin: So in the case of all-out war between israel and palestine, what happens
43:46 Stovakhor: Palestine ends.
43:51 Stovakhor: Realistically speaking.
44:04 Stovakhor: It would be a VERY fast war.
44:26 Chojin: in the short term, yeah, but what about iran and treaties palestine/iran might have?
44:33 Stovakhor: Even then.
44:53 Stovakhor: Israel's army is so advanced, full war isn't that big a threat anymore
45:03 Stovakhor: China is staying out of it
45:25 Stovakhor: Although, they more or less condone Iran's actions, since htey need the oil
45:38 Stovakhor: It's unlikely they would step in on either side

[Kulturkampf]

A famous person once said, but I am not sure who.... said something like:

"Peace is the period of time that you use to prepare for the next war."

It is true.

Fuck peace agreements -- let's beat them in the war, and then prepare for the next group of enemies we'll have to fight.

[Chojin]

PROCEED TO LEVEL 7-2

[Emu]

"Fuck peace agreements -- let's beat them in the war, and then prepare for the next group of enemies we'll have to fight."

Wait. You say that, and you called ME a fucking fascist?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by Chojin

44:53 Stovakhor: Israel's army is so advanced, full war isn't that big a threat anymore

This is the end of Palestine as we know it.

I really do hope that your friend is proven wrong. That's just a lot of fucking blood.

[Chojin]

From what I understand of the issues (which is admittedly as limited as our resident nazis) a lot of Palestinians are just so far gone in their hateful craze that it doesn't leave a lot of options on the table for avoiding genocide. Our country isn't too far behind, either, but then again we don't have an entire nation of homosexuals next door to harass.

I hope Hamas can grow up and bargain, I really do. I would take no joy in watching Israel roll over them.

[Abcdxxxx]

Israeli's are funny. What she forgets is there are a lot of people like Ziggy stuck in 1993 who didn't get the supposedly clear message a HAMAS victory sends. Israeli's use that line of positive thinking for everything... "now we can REALLY defend ourselves"...and it never happens. They just slowly make more concenssions.

Israel doesn't want to wipe out Palestinians. A good portion of the country have Palestinian friends, or coworkers. You just have to remember that for years, the Pro-Israel contigent has been claiming Palestinians don't want peace, they want genocide against Jews.... and so now there's less of a charade left. There ARE Palestinians who want peace...but they were never in the PA government, and will never come from any of the PLO derivative organizations.

It's stories like this that are truly horrifying.

SUICIDE BOMBERS MOTHER ELECTED TO PALESTINIAN PARLIAMENT

GAZA, Jan. 26, 2006 — - Mariam Farahat, who was elected to the Palestinian parliament, can work a crowd like a veteran politician -- shaking hands and greeting supporters. When she gets on the stage at a Hamas rally, she is the star attraction. She was one of Hamas' most popular candidates in Wednesday's election.

In Gaza, Farahat is known as Um Nidal, or Mother of the Struggle -- a mother who sent three of her six sons on Hamas suicide missions against Israeli targets

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=1536576



On a up note, I'm pretty sure HITLER WON IN JENIN. Now I know Arafat said Jenin doesn't exist anymore, but Jamal Mohammad Mahmoud Abu al-Rob aka Hitler won a seat for Fatah party there. Fatah were the moderates right?

[Kulturkampf]

Originally Posted by Chojin

From what I understand of the issues (which is admittedly as limited as our resident nazis) a lot of Palestinians are just so far gone in their hateful craze that it doesn't leave a lot of options on the table for avoiding genocide. Our country isn't too far behind, either, but then again we don't have an entire nation of homosexuals next door to harass.

I hope Hamas can grow up and bargain, I really do. I would take no joy in watching Israel roll over them.

I am not a Nazi. Why would yuo say that?

Because I am more conservative than yuo and don't like my arguments?

It is libel.

[Chojin]

Does this mean I can change your title to 'Resident Nazi', as you apparently answer to that now?

[Pharaoh]

You hippies would have to be forced to go and fight the real Nazis if Hitler was around today. And even then you'd be totally useless.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh

You hippies would have to be forced to go and fight the real Nazis if Hitler was around today. And even then you'd be totally useless.

wow this is so frightengly true

there's vomit on my shoes already

mom's spaghetti

[Slinky Ferret]

Although I don't know nearly enough about this subject to fully understand it all I agree with the views of Abcdxxxx.

I've read many different articles and information on this situation and I think at the end of the day its about two nations of people, the fair majority of whom can live side by side in peace. I understand the Palestinians' need to protect themselves. But I really think there is a big difference between killing soldiers and intentionally killing civilians.

As for I, fuzzbot. Sorry hon, but I think you're being a bit OTT and hostile towards Abcdxxxx. Not sure why, maybe this is a thorny issue for you.

The world as we know it is changing rapidly, I get the feeling there are going to be some difficult times ahead and I'd like permission to be scared!

[Abcdxxxx]

Meanwhile, Hamas take power, and a week later....

Jan 31 -- Olmert administration uses Israeli army to violently attack and expel thousands of Jewish men, women, and children from their homes near Hebron. Close to 200 injured in the attack, including some serious injuries to children. Citizens block roads in Jerusalem in protest. Riots are expected throughout the country.

[ziggytrix]

uh, why is the Israeli acting Prime Minister having the army attack their own people?

[Big Papa Goat]

because some settlers aren't happy about withdrawling? but I don't see why Israel is working at withdrawling from palestinian territories if the palestinians don't seem to care about peace talks anymore

although I think the point of the story may be that Israel is in fact still working at the peace process in spite of the belligerent new palestinian parliment

[Abcdxxxx]

The campaign strategy of the acting PM, Olmert, seems to be stuck on polarizing the community, to get the Leftists to the polls. This should have been a time of renewed unity, what with Hamas taking office.

The idea is to prove they still want peace, and will continue with the road map (even though they announced the road map was dead? huh!?) because Israel keeps it's end of a bargain. Way to empower the radicalists in Gaza!

So that means they're evicting 20,000 MORE Jews in the next couple weeks, even though the 9,000 refugees of Gaza are still homeless!! There are going to be HUGE protests, and huge underground resistance groups popping up. The subtext is that these are tinnny areas, filled with Jewish holy sites, (Hebron is second only to Jerusalem in importance) but they've been Arab dominated since Jews were driven out in the 20's. These are some of the most hostile areas for Jews to even try and live in. It's debateable what is an illegal outpost, or a legal settlement, but what is clear, is that these areas will be Jewish Free before elections.

The IDF were brutal today.

[ziggytrix]

Guess it goes to show the IDF is brutal no matter whose home they're bulldozing.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm glad they're playing to the peanut gallery, so that even the most basic one dimensional clown can get the message then!! Even ZIggy gets it. Don't worry, moral equivalency is alive and well!

They intentionally pulled out all stops (I'm not sure they can get bulldozers into those areas or they'd do it) to show the Palestinian's weren't treated any worse then Israelis.....is it working yet? By all accounts, and short of bullets, the violence was unprecedented.

The latest - Olmert is talking about "the Jewish Hamas", and today they pulled the IDF after another clash where some Hilltop Youth stole a radio.

[ziggytrix]

Actually I don't get it. While not as bad as KikI, your writing is quite often very difficult to understand. Plus you seem to assume I follow Isreal's news more than casually. You are aware that these current events are not really getting much US media attention, right? I don't think Bush even said a word about Israel (other than saying Hamas best recognize) in his State of the Union.

So let's be clear. Are you saying the Jews in Gaza are a bunch of terrorists in the making? Is how they got there irrelevant? Is this violence primarily Settlers against IDF? Does "pulled the IDF" mean the army retreated cuz it was getting too violent? What makes you think they cannot get bulldozers out there? Does the IDF Bulldozer Brigade just not have the funds it did 2 years ago - no wait, they're disbanded aren't they? I guess it would be a lot cheaper to just go in and kick asses, huh?

The government of Israel has made plenty of mistakes which have contributed to the hatred and antisemitism in that region. If that's one-dimensional "moral equivalency" then fine, call me a one-dimensional moral equivalist! Oh boo hoo, whatever shall I do.

It seems to me however, that a blatant refusal to ever assign any fault to the Israeli government is a MUCH more one dimensional attitude. The refusal to entertain the thought that extremely violent police action might not be the most effective control is pretty one-dimensional. But whatever, I'm sure you have such a deeper understanding of human nature, as studied as you are on Middle Eastern affairs. IF you deign to answer any of my questions, oh great sage of all things Middle Eastern, could you please be sure to put it in terms the "peanut gallery" can understand. Maybe even proofread it before you post to make sure you are being clear and multidimensional?

[Abcdxxxx]

Seriously...why are you even entering the conversation, let alone acting like a patronizing douche, if you can't keep up?

"So let's be clear. Are you saying the Jews in Gaza are a bunch of terrorists in the making?"

There are no Israelis in Gaza. Olmert was talking about a group called the Hilltop Youth, who are a religious radical group, of fairly young kids, who might have watched Red Dawn one too many times. Israel's Kadima party (which includes Olmert) would like to paint all the settlers in the same light as these kids. We're not talking about Gaza anymore. Gaza is completely Palestinian controlled. Understand, there is a political climate in Israel where the secular have turned their backs on anything viewed as religious. Sharon, and now Olmert are capitilizing on that so they can carry out the expulsion of Jews from the disputed territories.


"Is how they got there irrelevant?"

Sure it's relevant. What are you really askin?

"Is this violence primarily Settlers against IDF? Does "pulled the IDF" mean the army retreated cuz it was getting too violent?"

Right, the IDF is attempting to evacuate Jews from small villages living in "outposts" which the government has deemed illegal. They're being met with resistance. From what I gather, the army retreated when one of their radios got swiped, and they lost tactical ground controlling the riots. You have to understand, the protest opposition they're facing comes from Israel's citizens, most of whom have undergone military training. The clash is between Jews. Arabs, and others continue to build "outposts" of their own in these towns, without recourse. I understand these stories aren't making it into US media...which is why I posted about it.

"What makes you think they cannot get bulldozers out there? "

The geography? We're talking tiny mountain regions, and narrow roads.

"Does the IDF Bulldozer Brigade just not have the funds it did 2 years ago - no wait, they're disbanded aren't they? I guess it would be a lot cheaper to just go in and kick asses, huh? "

See, I think you're trying to make some kind of biting statement. Try making an informed one next time. They bulldozed all the Jewish homes in Gaza just fine.

"The government of Israel has made plenty of mistakes which have contributed to the hatred and antisemitism in that region. If that's one-dimensional "moral equivalency" then fine, call me a one-dimensional moral equivalist! Oh boo hoo, whatever shall I do. "

Israel has made plenty of mistakes, but to say it contributes to hatred against Jews in that region is pretty ignorant of the historical timeline for the conflict. They disliked Jews before Israel even existed. Israel doesn't have to do much to provoke hatred...unless you credit Israel's right to exist as a provocation in itself.


"It seems to me however, that a blatant refusal to ever assign any fault to the Israeli government is a MUCH more one dimensional attitude. "

I assign plenty of fault to Israel. Ready? I'll list some mistakes they made:

- Giving land to Palestinians without a treaty instead of it's previous owners, Egypt, and Jordan.
- Negotiating with the PLO, and legitamizing Arafat, sponsoring their return.
- Demolishing productive communities in Gaza, leaving 9,000 Jews homeless, and 11,000 Palestinians unemployed.
- Building settlements in Gaza, when the land should have remained a buffer zone.
- Pandering to Egypt, and tearing down refugee housing in the Sinai.

[ziggytrix]

"Sure it's relevant. What are you really askin? "

Well I'm just trying to clear something up that has me confused. I thought the Israeli government had encouraged settlement in these "buffer zones" and now that they're forcing everyone out, it seems like this is a problem the Israeli government created. If I'm not mistaken, you seem to agree with me on that point. But in my opinion, while the heavy-handed, no tolerance, no exceptions method of enforcement of policy makes sense when you're used to dealing with crazies who'll blow themselves up to get to you, at the point at which it becomes standard operating procedure for everything, you've cut your nose off to spite your face.

The point where we diverge, I guess, is that I see examples of those kinds of mistakes made against non-Jews in the area, I see it as furthering the misunderstand of a government or class oppression for a racially motivated oppression. It was much the same in the US when organizations like the Black Panthers saw every flaw in the white establishment as an overt racial attack.

As for the notion that "Isreal's right to exist is provacation" I'm of the opinion that NO nation has a right to exist, and nationalism is just a symptom of inbreds who think their "pure-blood" makes them anything other than prone to disease and disfunction. But I doubt that particular human condition could be overlooked short of a global threat from another species of life, and so far no alien race has shown up for us to unite against in our natural desire to band together to fight our enemies. It's just as well, they'd prolly obliterate us.

[Abcdxxxx]

Well since you still live in Texas, and not Mexico, let's leave your ideals for a utopean world in dreamland, for now. Israel's opposition is a nationalist cause... with the goal of statehood IN PLACE of an Israeli state.

In their case, they desire a Jewish free, mostly Christian free, fascist, totalitarian nation in place of Israel, a country which has over a million non-Jewish citizens. (How many times must I repeat that!?). How is it that you percieve Israel with it's multi-ethnic, secular government as being guilty of racial oppression? Tell me where a Druze, or Kurd has more rights in the Mid-East, then in Israel?

When Israel turns inward, not out of guilt, or self reckoning, but to appease it's critics, and as a result, strips it's own Jewish citizens of basic rights as to which land they can or can not live, simply because of their ethnicity, then it's a problem. The only outposts being removed are Jewish ones. Arabs can stay. We're talking about the expulsion of 20,000 Jews in the face of Hamas taking control, and little attention from the World media. Scary, no? The use of force to justify their own history of self defense is obscene, and undermines their own status as a soveriegn nation.


Why is peace contingent on the region becoming free of Jews!? Why shouldn't that be considered a "racial attack" ?

[ziggytrix]

"Well since you still live in Texas, and not Mexico, let's leave your ideals for a utopean world in dreamland, for now."

One, the combined wealth of the world’s three richest people is greater than the total gross domestic product of the 48 poorest countries. Two, in 1960, the average income of the richest 20 per cent of the world’s population was 30 times higher than that of the poorest 20 per cent. By 1995, this had become 82 times greater (United Nations Development Programme Report 1998). Three, in 1970, the gap between the per capita GDP of the richest country, the United States of America ($5070) and of the poorest, Bangladesh ($57) was 88:1. In 2000, the gap between the richest, Luxembourg ($45,917) and the poorest, Guinea Bissau ($161) was 267:1. Four, a study of 77 countries (with 82 per cent of the world’s population) showed that between the Fifties and the Nineties, inequalities rose in 45 countries and fell in 16 countries.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/...inequgains.htm


So long as I'm living in America, why should I be complaining, is that it? But I'm not talking about waking up in an utopian dreamland, I'm talking about advancing humanity in a positive direction. You can call it a dream; I call it a goal.


But I'm wandering off-topic. Quite frankly, those who seek the complete obliteration of the state of Israel are human scum. Their minds are twisted by lies and their lives filling with enough indignities that they think their own death is meritous if it kills enough of the innocents they believe are their enemy. They bring NOTHING to the table for humanity.

As you've said a hundred times, Israel are doing the best of any nation in the region. I'm not contesting that. All I'm saying the state of Israel isn't blameless in the racial/religious/class struggle over there. Yet I'd have a hard time believing the heads of Israel intentionally sought out a path of racial or religious oppression, though I suppose class oppression is somewhat inevitable in any modern wealth-driven society.

But violently forcing their own populace out of the contested areas is probably a worse move than encouraging them to build there in the first place. In this case the IDF does not seem to be a force of racial oppression, but rather just a force of oppression. I don't know for sure, but I'm just guessing the folks in these settlements aren't rich and influential. Maybe this is what it will take for Islamic extremists to wake up to the fact that people are using religion to manipulate them to irreligious ends. If so, then I'll eat my words, and Israel will have pulled off an amazing feat, although I fear we're treading back into dreamland at this point.

More to the point, my only genuine negative opinions of Israel are regarding the military (and even then it's absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is a Jewish military - the problems are inherent to any military authority and one need only try to tally the amount of destruction caused there by American forces in the last half century). Based on my very limited knowledge and watching a film of a meeting between IDF leaders and PA security leaders from around 2003, I don't really think the IDF brass were particularly interested in any peace process. Maybe they were too cynical to think there can ever be peace, maybe I'm completely wrong - I dunno. I don't know what the best solution is, but I'm pretty sure the military solution is one of escalation and destruction. But escalation targets the symptoms of the problem, not the sources. Next year will mark 40 years since the 6 Day War. How much better is the situation in the Middle East, in terms of reaching a real, lasting peace? Is a lasting peace even a realistic goal?

And if you can't get past the i-mockery induced sarcasm that tends to seep from my posts or if you just honestly think I'm bringing nothing to this discussion, please don't bother to reply, as I can think of a million more productive ways to spend my time than trying to have a serious discussion with you on a fucking internet forum attached to a humor website.