Depression

[Jeanette X]

I do agree that psychiatric drugs are overprescribed, but in my case, I did need them. I didn't not fully comprehend what they were for at that age, although I had some idea. And I have tried not taking them...lets just say it wasn't fun.
And yes VCA, it was a purely emotional reaction.

[FS]

In a possibly failed attempt at trying to summarize the problems of the western world: we're trying to get everything under control.

I shudder to think of the level of professionalism among psychiatrists and therapists after about twenty years of having to listen to people who like to hear themselves talk once a week, then like to hear someone conclude how fucked up it all makes them - in textbook phrases - and then pay money for it all.

[AChimp]

Anyone can call themself a psychotherapist. There's no certification required at all for that title. It's basically the same as setting up my own fortune telling booth after watching a 15 minute video on how to shine my crystal ball. Be very wary of any kind of therapist who does not have an official degree from a reputable institution. Most likely they are just trying to hose you by making up junk everyday.

Go to a psychiatrist for your problems, though, and you WILL get medication. Psychiatrists are medical doctors with a little bit of a psychology background. They basically believe that almost all mental disorders are caused by chemical imbalances, and so forth (essentially, psychosis is purely biological).

Psychologists, on the other hand, recognize the benefit of drugs but also believe that mental disorders can be attributed in large part to purely mental causes. They'll prescribe drugs for you, but you'll also do all the talking stuff. The problem is, though, psychologists cost a helluva lot more than a psychiatrist. You don't spend years going to see the same psychologist for your problems, either, unless you're seeing one of those Freudian psychoanalysts.

Statistically, you're not going to show any more improvement after your 26th session, but rather level off in your condition.

[Vibecrewangel]

I don't know if I an anomally or if I am what could be "normal" (I hate that word....normal)

I went through a lot....more than most people but less than others. In addition to that I have some problems that are probably not related to my upbringing. I'm mildly dyselxic. Wasn't identified until I was almost 21. I have cronic insomnia. Mild to moderate OCD it gets worse when I am stressed. Trichotillomania (sp). Anorexia and bulimia when I was younger....
I never got diagnosed or treated for these, so I never knew anything was wrong. I ended up fighting through things in school but in the end, I found ways to deal with it. I think if I had been diagnosed I might not be doing so well. Tell a kid they have a problem often enough and they will have a problem. Mild cases should never be treated. Most people will work through them. It's only if they are more severe or the person is having serious difficulty because of it should it ever become an issue.

Seriously.....look up a list of psycholigical disorder and you'll find that most people have quite a few. We are so obsessed with naming things we are making a mountain out of a grain of sand.

BTW - I have always had bad luck with therapists. They drug me, they try to get me to dwell on things (this is the part I hated the most.....my depression is based on that fact that I can't let go of things.....making me go over it a billion times DOES NOT HELP) they try to get me to make excuses for things like when I found out about my dyslexia.....
Sometimes I swear they make healthy people insane. Not that some people don't need therapy. Or meds. But I really think that far too many people are taking this route unncessarally.

I did however find one very good therapist. I paid her to do me a favor. To listen, ask a few questions and then give me an honest opinion on if I needed help. We spent a few session we talked about things. I told her how I felt about everything. A lot of which I've posted here.....my opinions on mental health, diagnoses, society, the world. I cut loose. You know what she told me.....she told me she couldn't help me. She told me I would get just as much talking to a friend when I needed it as I would get from her. That especially in my case, having a bout of depression or randomly needing to talk about my family is normal and healthy. She told me that through all my searching I had naturally come to do many of the things that they tell people to do. She also told me that a lot of people are lazy. They want someone else to fix their problems. They want to have excuses for their problems. Therapy is a booming business because people just don't want to deal with it themselves.
She also suggested I write about it....funny...that's being suggested a lot these days.....not to give arm chair therapy, but simply to make is known that regular people, with absolutly no knowledge of medical terms and pshychological babble can get through their own problems if the would just stop whining and looking for a quick fix.

Lord that can be applied to a lot of life these days.....

[Protoclown]

Vibecrew, once again I am impressed by your attitude. I really have a great deal of respect for you and the fact that you overcame so many difficulties as you were growing up.

One trend that disturbs me is when people seem to be PROUD of their mental disorders. I have a friend who will gladly go down the list of all the mental disorders he has had and still has, as if each one is a seperate badge of honor to be displayed with pride. I could never understand that mentality, or how or why it's created. I guess perhaps it comes with the territory of going through therapy and having every single "disorder" or problem labeled. The names give sometimes ordinary, relatively normal things a distorted sense of importance.

I think perhaps people who do that also do it so they can throw out any of their disorders as an excuse for their behavior, so they don't have to be responsible for their actions. This particular friend is the WORST alcoholic I have ever known, and his inconsiderate drunken behavior has driven away nearly all my other friends who will no longer associate with this guy in any capacity. He makes no apologies, he merely states that his drinking problem is a part of who he is, and if you don't accept that, you don't accept him. I have told him that what he says is total bullshit, but it's like talking to a brick wall with this guy. Basically he thinks he can act like a complete asshole whenever he wants and then it's "HEY! You can't blame ME! I'm an alcoholic!" or "I'm depressed" or whatever.

I have tried making an effort to help this guy with his drinking problem, but I've since given up. At one point I felt like it was my duty as a friend, but I've done MORE than my duty as a friend, I've put up with more than I should ever have had to from someone I CALL a friend, and nothing I said or did ever made a difference in the least. I now realize there's only so much I can do, and HE has to be the one to want to change before anything can happen. It sounds shitty and I hate to feel like I'm abandoning him, but I am NOT going to let him fuck up my life with his problems that he could solve for himself if he had the slightest bit of willpower whatsoever.

[Vibecrewangel]

Thanks Proto. It feels weird to talk about it. Honestly, the internet makes it a lot easier. I've always been afraid of of coming off as the "poor little victim" or the "angry surviver with no comapassion" It is very hard to talk about without sounding whiny, preachy or like you are looking for attention. But damn it....I see so much stupid shit. I see so many people doing things that just make no damn sense to me. People making excuses and looking for easy answers. And it frustrates the hell out of me. I swear, if I can just get people to just stop being such deliberate dumb-asses everything I went through would be worth it. Hence my desire to write about it now.

You know, you really hit the nail on the head in you last post. People want an excuse for their behavior. For whatever reason they would rather have a justification than actually try to change the behavior. I just don't get that. If you know something is wrong or if you don't like something about yourself then change it. Don't give it a name and then act like that means it isn't fixable. What the hell is that? Sheesh.



So my dyselxia got diagnosed when I was hired at the special education grade school. I had to take a series of tests just to become a secretary. I also had to talk to a counselor/therepist to see if I could handle working with severely handicapped and autistic children.
My form of dyslexia is considered "quite common" and "under-diagnosed" (Please note my annoyance....you'll see why in a second) I do not switch numbers or letters. I do not see things upside down. I simply can not work with order of operation. Like in algebra, card games, technical concepts, rituals (this made being a witch funny as hell...yeah high school witch phase) driving directions......
Now I fully admit my problem is real. I actually spent a good part of my life thinking I was just bad at math and was bad with directions. Seriously...I think this is all it is but people wanted a reason. And reasons easily become excuses. No matter how hard I try, even now, it just won't hold in my head. Even memorization tricks fail. But when the therapist told me it was a real form of dyslexia and that if I had been diagnosed in school I would have been able to take longer on tests and have a list of steps available when doing algebra (um...doesn't that defeat the purpose of algebra?) I had to laugh. I mean really, give a high schooler an excuse to take the easy way out. Well hell, sign just about everyone up. Most people won't cheat because it is wrong, but hell, I could have had permission. And I know I would have taken it. Math f'n killed me. But I wonder, if I had known that....what other things would I have passed up because I had a "learning disability"
I'm glad I didn't know.

The ironic things is my OCD is an order of operation. (I'm curious about this, but Idon't think knowing why will fix it) I have to perfom certain actions (check light switches, plugs, windows) in a certain order before I can go to bed or leave the house. Now, I'm sure your saying "everyone checks those things" However, everyone does not circle the house in that pattern 7 times checking the same things over and over. Everyone does not get up in the middle of the night and do it again. And everyone does not have panic attacks all day if they don't do it.
Again, I never knew what it was so I learned to work with it. I just make sure I start my pattern 10 min before I would need to leave if I didn't do it. Hell, my friends love it (now...) it's a quirk and a friendly joke. Doctors suggested medication.....I suggested they shove it. It isn't debilitating. It is annoying sometimes when I kepp getting up at night. But, when that happens it is an indicator thet something is really bothering me. It's helped me to catch problems before they become a stress or depression issue.

We used to be bad at math. Now we have a form of dyslexia.
We used to twirl our hair around our finger, maybe pull out a strand two. It was called a bad habit and our mom's slapped our hand. Now it is called trichotillomania and you get medicated for it.
We used to be called lazy. Now we have Chronic Fatigue Syndome.
I'm serious look at the list......I did, and if I listed all the things I technically have I'd be the most mentally ill person alive. But then, anyone who did that would come out the same way.

It angers me. These disorders and syndromes are named because there are people that REALLY suffer from them. They pluck their heads bald and tear out their eyelashes. They wash their hands until they bleed. People like me have them as mild cases. I still pluck at my hair, but I am concious of it now so I can for the most part stop myself. Well that and I pluck the hairs out of my knees to satisfy the urge. But damn it.....it seems like everyone wants to have a disroder. Trust me, it ain't all it's cracked up to be.

And then I see people like my mom and sister. Who were/are seriously troubled and they never get treated......
I just don't get it.

The names give sometimes ordinary, relatively normal things a distorted sense of importance.

I think this bears repeating.

[george]

the public school system can HAVE YOUR KID diagnosed as having ADD and make it a condition that they be medicated if they want to return to class.

[Vibecrewangel]

Jeanette - Being that the meds didn't work for me I can't relate to you fully, however having problems of my own I can sympathize. I would never in a million years say that meds are completely unncessary (I wish my sis would take them) it's just that far more people are taking them then actually need them.

Another story (sorry, I know I've been a tad verbose today...)
A friend of mine recently got diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

He'd had a week vacation and decided to go shoping the first day and then sit at home and veg. He slept a lot. Watched TV. Showered a couple of times. But was for the most part a couch spud. When he tried to get up for work the following Monday he felt like crap and thought he was sick. He ended up calling in sick for another three days and then went to the doctor. He was feeling worse. More tired. Sleeping more. Weak. Not very hungry. They checked him for mono and diabetes (sp). Nothin. The diagnoses.....CFS.
So he calls me all worried he's got CFS. I laughed so hard my sides hurt for a week. When I calmed down he asked what was so funny. I told him that CFS was another way of calling a person lazy. I told him to go walk around the block and then let me know how he felt. He ended up calling is doctor to ask him about what he said and his doctor confirmed. His doctor though I was a kick in the pants.
I have to sympathize with doctors a bit. A person comes in...lazy bad diet, doesn't feel well. Doctor tells them eat better and get some excercise. Well hell, this aint no answer. Patient keeps coming back. Doctor tells patient he has CFS and makes same reccomendation and well hey. Now it has a name.....I'm sick.....I know he suggested diet and excercise...but I'm sick...I can't do that....I hace CFS......it has a name.....so it proves I'm sick.


You know...people have actually received disability checks for CFS. Paid for being lazy. All because it has a name.

[Vibecrewangel]

the public school system can HAVE YOUR KID diagnosed as having ADD and make it a condition that they be medicated if they want to return to class.

I know....this just baffles me.

When did it become wrong to be a kid? And why? What the hell happened? We were all kids once.....it wasn't like this. Was it?

[AChimp]

That's also in my psych textbook. Giving something a fancy name legitimizes it and makes people want to seek "treatment," even if the doctor says "just get off your ass."

See, if a doctor recommends you get exercise just to stay healthy, will you do it? No, you probably won't get any more exercise than when you already get. But, if the doctor were to tell you that you have fatassitis, and that you NEED to exercise in order to get better, you'll probably follow his advice.

In other news, the depression came back today for a while. But now it's gone.

[O71394658]

The entire problem with ADHD is just terrible.

As most of us know, the recent facination over Ritalin as the "cure-all" of ADHD in children is literally scaring the crap out of me. Firstly, the drug is new. Becoming popular about 5 years ago (Ritalin use has increased about 5-fold in the past 5 years). Like many drugs out there, people can only speculate how it works. No one really knows what it does, to be perfectly honest. It affects areas of the brain that control attention, some of the most important and basic aspects that are necessary for normal human function. Most people on Ritalin are kids, which is the scariest part of all. The brain is constantly growing. Pumping hundreds of milligrams of Ritalin into a developing brain every day has got to have some serious detrimental effects to normal brain development. Like I said before, the drug is relatively new (about 20 years) so long-term side effects aren't readily discernable yet. As the "Ritalin kids" grow up, I can only imagine what the hell is going to happen.

It's used, much as everyone else said, an excuse. Personally, Vibe, I'm amazed that you've learned how to deal with all the shit you've been put through. I'm also amazed that you've taken personal responsibility and managed to turn into a pretty intelligent individual as a result. But most people don't get it. Doctors (if you don't know, many doctors are actually given money, basically "referrals" by drug compaines if they get patients to take their drugs) overprescribe it way too often. ADHD exists because a couple of doctors said it does. There are a multitude of other mental illnesses out there that have either the same or very similar symptoms as ADHD, and to which Ritalin use has been detrimental. For example, say Johny shows signs of restlessness in class. So, his mother takes him to a doctor, who pumps him chock full of Ritalin. Johny may have another illness, and the presence of Ritalin may make his illness worse. Teachers are recommending it to parents as an excuse for nonbehavior. Parents are using it as routes to escape from actual, healthy parenting. Instead of discipline, they're just classified as "overactive" and "restless", so the doctor throws some Ritalin at them. They don't have to be parents anymore, just nurses. Make sure Johny takes his pills, and everything is going to be fine. It's proven that Ritalin has been shows to produce insomnia, restlessness (funny huh?), seizures, and a recent study has shown that it often is detrimental to bone development. Is this really something to be given to growing and developing kids?

I'm not saying Ritalin (Ritalin just being an example. This is in relation to the multitudes of physical and mental ailments out there) is the problem, or that people don't need it. It's just that, most people don't...

[Vibecrewangel]

Okay.....I have to ask...am I just overly intutive?
I have NEVER taken a psych or a philo class. I've never really even read anything on either subject. Sure, looking something up here or there. But no actual research.
But obviously I'm on the right track fairly often. It kinda creeps me out sometimes. Kelly and Ror have both remarked that I seem to follow certain ideas or theories. They've even cited sources. Remarking that sometimes I blend them and sometimes one thing I say contadicts another based on the research. They've listed authors and PhDs and I think to myself "Who are those people"
Honestly, even the big names....those grand old greeks and romans....mean nothing to me. I didn't even know what Buddhism really was until last year and yet my entire view of existance fits right it. Sometimes I'm embarrased that I don't know the sources....usually I am just werided out.

Seriously....everything I talk about all just comes from my own ponderings and watching the world go by.

[Vibecrewangel]

07 - Thanks. I just don't understand it. I know what I went through was bad. Sometimes I forget how bad... But at the same time it was just life. I have absolutly no idea why my reaction too it is so different from most other peoples.

Too bad I can't bottle it and sell it as the miracle cure for the mentally ill. Instead I just try to talk about my stance. How I feel. What I've learned. Hope that what I say clicks for some people. Sometimes I think that is what happened to me. Someone said something or I saw something and though I don't remember it now it did something to the way I saw the world.

[AChimp]

Your mushroom pic gives you POWERS.

But anyways, I've figured out why I get depressed. I ruminate (yes, that is the technical term for brooding). Because I am so pessimistic all the time, I will analyze a situation over and over and over and over and over until all I've done is focus on the negative aspects and until I've blown them way out of proportion and forgotten what actually happened. Then, I have to spend a few more days reminding myself that my new interpretation is completely distorted and then a few more days trying to remember what originally occurred.

I can seriously spend days wondering if there was any significant meaning behind a shrug. A fucking shrug.

See, the brief summary of my Loveline thread is that I was recently in a relationship where I thought things were going great. I really, really, really care(d) a lot about this girl, and then all of a sudden one day, "you know, I was thinking a month ago that this might not be working, but I've put off telling you about my concerns. Oh, what's that? You want to talk about it? Well, sorry. I had a really bad relationship in the past, so I push people away. That's what I do. Maybe I'll change one day. No, I don't want to go out with you. I don't want to hurt you. You don't have to prove how great you are to me blah blah blah blah blah. Okay, maybe we'll talk about it a bit.... okay, talking is done. I agree with many of your points, but I've already made up my mind, so I will stop talking to you now and start thinking that you are out for revenge against me. If anyone asks, that's what I'm going to tell them: that sensitive pussy man AChimp is out for blood and I have to lay low."

(Actual conversation was much longer and involved me talking, getting angry, apologizing, getting depressed, then angry again, and more talking. Above conversation dramatized due to my pessimism and probably a fair amount of bitterness, too)

So now, you see, knowing all about her past really bad relationship, and the fact that she agreed with me on a lot of the points I raised in our discussions and the fact that I spend the last two months tearing my hair out and trying to apologize to her for how I acted has resulted in her avoiding me even more.

I spent the last two months trying to apologize for getting pissed off (I said a few pretty mean things and that still really bothers me) only to end up standing there like an idiot because I completely forgot what I was going to say. Her response, "okay." That was it. "Okay." So, what did I do? I wrote it all in a letter. I originally intended for the letter to only be a couple pages, but I wrote ELEVEN FUCKING PAGES and then gave it to her! No response, of course, not even the "tell me to fuck off to put my mind at ease" response that I asked for as a last resort.

I've spent all my time wondering about all the things I could have done differently, all the things I should be doing, and trying to figure out exactly what it is that's going through her head.

So there. I think I need to stop thinking.

[Protoclown]

life ain't nuttin but bitches and money


remember that and you will go far

[AChimp]

THANK YOU FOR THAT NUGGET OF WISDOM, PROTOCLOWN.

I've tried thinking of her as just an object, actually. And it made me feel better, too, until I was overcome with guilt and felt worse than ever for days.

[Vibecrewangel]

But anyways, I've figured out why I get depressed. I ruminate (yes, that is the technical term for brooding). Because I am so pessimistic all the time, I will analyze a situation over and over and over and over and over until all I've done is focus on the negative aspects and until I've blown them way out of proportion and forgotten what actually happened. Then, I have to spend a few more days reminding myself that my new interpretation is completely distorted and then a few more days trying to remember what originally occurred.

Welcom to my world Chimp. Hopefully you won't stay long. The food is bad and the accomodations suck.
This is EXACTLY what did. Still do sometimes. I wish I had some better advice.....but....well....this is all I got......
I decided to use the thing that was causing the problem to make it better. Logic told me that if one direction didn't help try the other. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

So what I did is when I caught myself starting to dwell. I let it happen. But I didn't just brood. I didn't just let it take it's course. I forced it. I talked to myself. I had imaginary conversations with the other person(s) I ran every scenario. Every possibility. I worte letters that have never been sent (God don't send them) I went over it and over it and over it in the shortest time possible. Instead of the slow depression of dwelling I had the forced anger and frustration of pushing the issue to the extreme. At first it seemed counter productive. I'd be all angry and depressed for a day or two but then instead of that damn lingering depression it started an upward swing. Now, I know what my triggers are both for cause and for getting over it. Most of my depression is fairly normal now. Which of course leads me to the really really super mondo important part. Some depression is normal. Being upset about what you went through is okay. Hell, you wwould be more unhealthy if you weren't upset. Don't strive to never be depressed. I'm sure you've read this, probaby even been told. But I speak from experience. Also, and this is much more difficult but still critical. Accept that sometimes you won't get "closure" A lot of my dwelling was because I was looking for that answer. That why. Now, and it is hard, I just have accept that the answer won't be coming. It is one of the good things that came from my mother passing away.....I had to accept that I would never get the answers. The first time is the hardest. And since mine was a big one......

It isn't much, but I hope it helps.

[Protoclown]

Chimp, it sounds to me like you're obsessing over this girl. I posted something in your big loveline thread you should read. It's not healthy, dude. Get over it and let it go.

[Vibecrewangel]

I used to hear that a lot Proto. "Let it go" "You're over reacting" "Stop dwelling on it" I wish I could explain it, but for some people it just isn't that easy. And I don't expect anyone who hasn't experienced it to understand it. Kinda like child birth. It's like being locked in a room with with a VCR and a tv playing the same movie over and over and over. And the longer it plays the more distorted it gets. You push all the buttons it doesn't stop. You unplug everything it doesn't stop. You beat on it doesn't stop. You then have to sowly pick it apart until you find that one little piece that makes it stop. And every issue you have is a different video and every time you have to go through all the damn motions and then pick it apart.

After a while I figured out what parts most often stopped my videos. Makes it a lot easier once the dame case is open.

Get the feeling I use a lot of imagery to help myself? I done gots me a real vivid minds eye.....

[AChimp]

Thanks Vibe. That does help a lot.

I've lost count of the imaginary conversations that I've had over this, ranging from everything working out to both of us ending up hating each other forever.

And it's much easier to say "let it go" than it is in reality. I dunno what it is that triggers the difficulty, though. I with my ex (psycho ex) when the relationship ended, it was just... whatever. I didn't care. In fact, I was happy. I was a little bit sad, but that maybe lasted a couple days and it didn't affect my health at all.

I have tried to let go of this, believe me. I have tried for three months ever since she told me that she "wasn't sure if we should be dating or just really close friends." Everything she said either introduced a whole new angle, or even worse, contradicted something the had said no more than 5 minutes earlier. I have a feeling that she was also confused, and I would have really liked to be able to talk with her about it. I just keep thinking about it over and over.

Every time I tried to let go, part of me would hang on and then take over again and in a few days I was depressed all over again, probably about some other little detail that I had suddenly remembered. Then I would go through everything start to finish, over and over. Each memory rehearsed again and again and again trying to find some clue that could have--no, should have--tipped me off.

That's probably why my letter ended up being 11 pages long, everything just came out in one big rush.

Over the last couple weeks, I've realized that there isn't much that I can do about it. Closure would be really, really nice... or reopening for that matter. After all of this, I still care a lot about her. I can't really explain it. Fatbinge and Pub and everyoen else I've talked to think I'm nuts because of it.

But, if she doesn't return the feelings, or wants to avoid everything, that's her choice and I have to respect that and try to deal with it as best I can.

[Vibecrewangel]

To be honest Chimp. I think I helped my self most by doing the most fucked up things. Forcing anger to fix the depression, cause anger went away faster is just one example.

If it ain't workin.....break it. Then fix it.

[FS]

I've just come from my therapist's and I am *very* angry at ALL of you.

[Krythor]

Put down each one of your thoughts in writing. Handwritten. Maybe it's just me, but I find that it's a healthy outlet that really relieves stress up there.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by FS

In a possibly failed attempt at trying to summarize the problems of the western world: we're trying to get everything under control.

I don't know if it's the way you meant it, but "getting control" has been a problem for the western world for a long time ... in a larger sense I mean. First, traveling abroad to meet interesting new people ... and killing them. Next, we had to conquer the seas, then classical laws of physics, then space. The only difference now is that, with advances in neurology, psychiatry and microbiology, were turning our desire for control inward. My worries are that the results will probably be just as hideous.

[Baalzamon]

Go out and fuck 10 other women, and I bet you wont be thinking about her anymore

But seriously, If you try to interact with more people, and most importantly GET OUT OF THE HOUSE MORE!, you will probably find that you start to get over it and probably dont even give a shit about her anymore(relatively speaking).

Staying in your basement ruminating like you have been for the last 3 months is probably the most unhealthy thing you could have been doing. If you absolutely MUST ruminate, Its best done outside the house, and its also good to talk to other people about it. Other people are more likely to notice when you are being illogical and looking too deeply into something petty.


But basically find something, anything, that you can motivate yourself to do, and let it occupy your mind once in a while. You'd be surprised how much even a few hours of relief from thinking about the problem can help.