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Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old May 5th, 2003, 02:07 PM        Hitler / Bush
My take on the similarities are in ().

27 Similarities between Hitler and President Bush

by Edward Jayne

Dissident Voice
March 29, 2003



After President Bush promised last fall to invade Iraq, his spokesmen fell into the habit of comparing Saddam Hussein with Adolph Hitler, by most accounts the most monstrous figure in modern history. Everybody was therefore shocked when the German Minister of Justice turned the tables by comparing Bush himself with Hitler. As to be expected, she (the Justice Minister) was forced to resign because of her extreme disrespect for an American president. However, the resemblance sticks -- there are too many similarities to be ignored, some of which may be listed here.



1. Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office.

(Very well worded. Shows that both had to battle to gain the position of power they held/currently hold)


2. Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized national outrage, in Hitler's case the Reichstag fire, in Bush's case the 9-11 catastrophe.

(Vince, this is what I am talking about. The reasons behind what they did)


3. Like Hitler, Bush went on to pursue a reckless ultra-nationalist foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate.

(Ultra-nationalist. Reckless. When Hitler did it it was worng. When Bush does it it's American)


4. Like Hitler, Bush has accordingly improved his popularity ratings, especially with veterans and conservative Republicans, by mounting an aggressive public relations campaign against foreign enemies. Just as Hitler cited international communism to justify Germany's military buildup, Bush uses Al Qaeda and the Axis of Evil to justify our current military buildup.


5. Like Hitler, Bush promotes militarism while in the midst of a major economic recession (or depression). He uses war preparations to help subsidize defense industries (Halliburton, Bechtel, etc.) and presumably the rest of the economy on a trickle-down basis.

(War time economy is often stronger. But insighting (sp) a war to build an economy is a bit excessive regardless of who does it.)


6. Like Hitler, Bush glorifies patriotism to stir up public support. He treats our nation's unique historic destiny almost as a religious cause sanctioned by God.

(It's UnAmerican if you are against the war. And how did the Germans feel?)


7. Like Hitler, Bush quickly makes and breaks diplomatic ties, and he makes generous promises that he soon abandons, as in the case of Mexico, Russia, Afghanistan, and even New York City.


8. Like Hitler, Bush envisages a future world order that guarantees his own nation's hegemonic supremacy rather than cooperative harmony under the authority of the United Nations (or League of Nations). He is willing to break the U.N. Charter in promoting this end.

(Their world view was similar. Though Bush isn't using racial supremacy to do it. How can he? We are the melting pot. Hitler was able to use the race card. But using the American card can be construed as being similar.)


9. Like Hitler, Bush scraps international treaties, most notably the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological Weapons Convention, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Convention on the Prohibition of Land Mines, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Kyoto Global Warming Accord, and the International Criminal Court.

(Don't know enough about these myself)


10. Like Hitler, Bush depends on an axis of collaborative allies, which he describes as a "coalition of the willing," to give the impression of having a broad popular alliance. These include the U.K. as compared to Mussolini's Italy, and Spain and Bulgaria as compared to, well, Spain and Bulgaria, both of which were aligned with Germany during the thirties and World War II.

(Both had/have nice sheeple followers who follow the big dog)

11. Like Hitler, Bush possesses a war machine much bigger and more effective than the military capabilities of other nations. Today, Bush depends on a "defense" budget roughly equivalent to the combined military expenditures of the rest of the world.

(Hitlers plans started out small too. Protect German interests. But power is power and human nature is what it is. Things can get out of control very quickly.)


12. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to invade other nations despite the opposition of the U.N. (League of Nations). He also has no qualms about bribing, bullying and insulting its members, even tapping their telephone lines.


13. Like Hitler, Bush pursues war without cutting back on the peacetime economy. He actually seeks to reduce taxes while conducting an expensive invasion and occupation of an "undesirable" nation.


14. Like Hitler, Bush launches unilateral invasions on a supposedly preemptive basis. Just as Hitler convinced the German public to think of Poland as a threat to Germany in 1939, Bush wants Americans to think of Iraq as a "potential" threat to our national security.

(You don't say?)



15. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to inflict high levels of bloodshed, with many thousands of casualties anticipated in Iraq, especially since the city of Baghdad--with a population of between 5 and 6 million--will be a primary target.

(Clearly Bush did more to protect the citizens of Iraq. But as I said, genocide was not the goal.)


16. Like Hitler, Bush depends on a military strategy that features a "shock and awe" blitzkrieg beginning with devastating air strikes, then an invasion led by heavy armor columns.

(What a stupid name...."shock and awe")


17. Like Hitler, Bush is perfectly willing to sacrifice life as part of his official duty, as indicated by his unique record as a governor of Texas who was reluctant to commute death sentences.

(Sometimes you gotta break some eggs. Just make sure you are American before you make that ommlet)



18. Like Hitler Bush began warfare on a single front (Al Qaeda quartered in Afghanistan), but then expanded it to a second front with Iraq, only to be confronted with North Korea as a potential third front. Much the same thing happened when Hitler expanded German military operations from Spain to Poland and France, then was distracted by Yugoslavia before invading the USSR in 1941.



19. Like Hitler, Bush has no qualms about imposing "regime change" by installing Quisling-style client governments reinforced by full-scale military occupation under a military governor.


20. Like Hitler, Bush curtails civil liberties and depends on detention centers (i.e. concentration camps) such as Guantanamo Bay.


21. Like Hitler, Bush repeats lies often enough that they come to be accepted as the truth. Bush and his spokesmen argue, for example that every measure has been taken to avoid war (hardly true), that an invasion of Iraq will diminish (not intensify) the terrorist threat to the world, and that the U.S. is staging an invasion because the risks of inaction would be greater (not less). All of this is highly debatable. They likewise argue that Iraq is linked with Al Qaeda (which has yet to be proven), and that nothing whatsoever has been achieved by U.N. inspectors to warrant the postponement of U.S. war plans (which simply isn't true). They insist that Iraq hides numerous weapons it does not possess as well as can be determined by U.N. inspectors, and they refuse to acknowledge the total absence of any nuclear weapons program in Iraq since the late nineties. As perhaps to be expected, they indignantly accuse everybody else of deception and evasiveness.



22. Like Hitler, Bush incessantly finds new excuses to justify war—from Iraq's WMD threat to the elimination of Saddam Hussein, to his supposed Al Qaeda connection, to the creation of democracy in the Middle East as a model for neighboring states, and back again to the WMD threat. As soon as one excuse for war is challenged, Bush shifts to another, but only to shift back again at another time.



23. Like Hitler Bush and his cohorts exaggerate ruthlessness by their enemies in order to justify their own. Just as Hitler cited the threat of communist violence to justify even greater violence on the part of Germany, the Bush team justifies a full-scale invasion of Iraq by emphasizing Saddam Hussein's crimes against humanity that were for the most part committed when Iraq was a client-ally of the U.S., supplied with both advisors and materiel (poison gas included) by our own government.



24. Like Hitler, Bush's Messianic ambition to bring about America's hegemonic dominance in the world makes him perhaps the most dangerous President in our nation's history, a rogue chief executive capable of waging any number of illegal preemptive wars.



25. Like Hitler, Bush has become so obsessed with his vision of a Manichaean conflict between good (U.S. patriotism) and evil (the anti-patriotic "other") that for many in contact with the White House he is beginning to seem as if he has lost touch with reality.



26. Like Hitler, Bush takes pleasure in the mythology of frontier justice. As a youth Hitler read and memorized the western novels of Karl May, and Bush retains into his maturity his fascination with simplistic cowboy values. He also exaggerates a cowboy twang despite his elitist education at Andover, Yale and Harvard.



27. Like Hitler, Bush misconstrues evolutionary theory, in Hitler's case by treating the Aryan race as being superior, in Bush's case by rejecting science for fundamentalist creationism.

(This one I take issue with. Not really a similarity)



Of course countless differences may be listed between Hitler and President Bush, most of which are to the credit of Bush. Nevertheless, the twenty-seven resemblances listed here are striking, especially since Bush's presidency this last couple of years must be compared to Hitler's early performance as German Chancellor, preceding the chain of events that culminated in World War II. As with Hitler, Bush's early successes in pursuit of global imperialism--whatever the cost to others--might well culminate in disaster, if not quite of the same magnitude.


(Remember, Hitler didn't just appear one day. In the early years he had great ideas. Ideas that went horribly awry. )
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Old May 5th, 2003, 02:17 PM       
the resemblances there are NOT striking because of some grievous and critical historical errors and misconceptions. i'm not even going to touch this one, at least not right now, because these things have become so fucking irritating that i want to stab my eyes out by bashing my face into the monitor. plus i have exams to study for...
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Old May 5th, 2003, 02:21 PM        LOL
Maybe another option then.

Try looking at history from something other than the American perspective.
We aren't the only ones with history books.


IMHO - The biggest and most important similarity......Bush and Hitler both pissed off the rest of the world for their own personal intrests under the guise of protecting their country.
Everything else falls under that one.



Ror-

I know you are going to take issue with some, maybe a lot of this. Please fill me in on the historical inaccuracies and misconceptions if you know them.

This article BTW came form a similar source as many of the others on this board. A nice little Google search.
There were others, but this one had a bit of substance to some of the comparisons.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 02:39 PM        Re: LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibecrewangel
Maybe another option then.

Try looking at history from something other than the American perspective.
We aren't the only ones with history books.
you have no idea just how much this pissed me off...

i'm sorry, i am just cranky today.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 02:48 PM       
The is the dumbest post I've ever seen.

I'll point out the first flaw.

"1. Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office.

(Very well worded. Shows that both had to battle to gain the position of power they held/currently hold)"

Of course they had to battle, that happenes every ELECTION. As you know, in this country we have an electoral college that's been here since the beginning and Bush had nothing to do with it origin. THAT he won hence won the election.

It's amazing how ignorant some of you are.

Some of you just refuse to accept common knowledge and choose to make up conspiracy theories to hide from common sense facts.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 02:59 PM        Ronnie
Ronnie you are too cute sometimes.

Come up with something other than the electoral college. We all know how it works.

The Florida situation was a fiasco from any perspective. The political manuvering in question was what got counted and what didn't. Bush did better. Bully for him. I don't think he in any way stole the office. He did better in the political arena though not necessarally the popular one.

See Ronnie, step outside your little box just a bit. And you'll see that things are not always black and white.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 03:03 PM        Books
Italian -

Why does it piss you off? Aside from being cranky?
I am serious. Why is the American perspective more right than any other?
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Old May 5th, 2003, 03:12 PM       
because i have spent the last 6 years...since i was 12 years old...trying to gain a more worldly view of history. i have loved history since i was 10 years old and have worked to gain an unbiased and accurate understanding of it. for you to so flippantly dismiss that makes me want to throttle something.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 03:15 PM        Books
Fair enough.
Just remember what boards you are on.




And to be fair. Most people who cite "historical inacuracies" generally tend to do so from the American perspective only (at least when American)
Very few take other views into consideration.

I'd be interested to see what you have to say when you have more time. Though I disagree with you on a lot of issues, I do consider you someone I enjoy debating with.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 03:20 PM       
I found the article interesting in that I initially rejected a Hitler/Bush comparrison out of hand.

I pretty much reject the time honored "Hitler = however I currently don't like" argument every time I hear it. I thought the "Noriega is just like Hitler" was a stupid ass argument and I thought the extended "Saddam + Hitler" argument with anyone who wasn't part of the 'coalition of the willing' cast as Chamberlain was ignorant and insulting.

So; A Bush/Hitler comparisson also seems to serve no real illuminating purpose.

But, if the comparison is whittled down to: Hitler's progress from political non entity through German chancellor to the annexation of Poland shares several commanalities with Bush's journy from political non entity to the middle of his first term... This author makes an interesting case.

That said I'm not sure where the effort gets us. While I think if you plunked Bush down in a historic setting that provided the unchecked opportunity Hitler had the results might prove interesting, that's sciencefiction. Unless and until Bush finds reason to declare marshall law (and personally I can think of several scenarios) I think the comparissons are interesting, but don't play out very far.

Now, if people wanted to compare Chenney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft to Hitler's inner cirlce just prior to WW II, I think there's a case to be made.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 03:46 PM       
By the way, the wartime economic "boom" is non-existant. The German economy was actually driven into the ground by Hitler's war machine. The only reason it works in America is because of how very vastly it applies. We not only manufacture our own munitions, we do so for the world as well.

As to the article, well, Italian is as usual quite correct. There are some rather fanciful intrepretation of reality in that piece. Such as its very opening, Hertha Daeubler-Gmelin did not resign because she compared Bush with Hilter, but because of the negative backlash she received from her words made her reelection impossible. . .If you will recall, she said it during the German elections. His case is further weakened by the fact that many of the contrasts he cites are not similar in the least. . .But to be honest, that isn't my objection.

". . .of comparing Saddam Hussein with Adolph Hitler, by most accounts the most monstrous figure in modern history"

See, this is what bothers me. He considers a comparison between Hitler and Hussein to be unwarranted slander, as evident from his writing tone, and yet, he is eagre to show how the converse corrolation between Adolf and Bush "stick," but it doesn't. Not only is this an obvious double standard, it is a harmful one. Let me quote an anonymous liberal from the San Francisco Peace Protest to display my point better:

"Even though I dislike (Bush's) policies, what disturbs me as an American is to see some of these signs portraying him as Hitler and comparing him to the Third Reich. I think thats disgusting and unpatriotic. I mean in our generation, in my folks generation, and in your generation, that was the most horrible thing mankind ever lived through. To protray him as Hitler, I think, is just disgusting. . .I think when they go that far, I think they take alot of the muscle away from the true message, and what we're out here for, because that brings such heated opinions and passions and when they see that kind of comparison, it clouds the real reason that we're out here."

Anyone with a third grade education can see that his argument is nonsense. Judging only by the ramification of their actions one can see there is no real comparison. People have spoken of shock and awe, and that is exactly what this is, on an entirely different level.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 04:27 PM       
Ronnie and Naldo should note where you got that last revealing quote from, Ror.


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Old May 5th, 2003, 04:39 PM       
I think that the comparison is dead on in certain areas, but waaay off in others. Bush ain't a bad dude, by any account. He might be a moron, but he is certainly not evil on the scale that would even come close to Hitler.

On the other hand, Bush and Hitler certainly do seem to have (had) a knack for pulling the strings of patriotism to build up support for constructing their legacy. I'm pretty sure that Bush would really love to go down in history as "the President that saved America from all the bad brown people."
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Old May 5th, 2003, 05:41 PM        Hitler
Ror -

Thanks for the info. I was curious about the Hertha Daeubler-Gmelin issue. It seemed a bit odd the way the article portrayed it, but I wasn't concerning myself with that at the time. I was only looking for a comparison of the two.

I agree that to compare Hitler to Bush but to say the comparison to Saddam doesn't add up is hypocritical at best. Saddam has more of the terrifying similarities than Bush could ever have. It's why I chose this particular article. It broght up more political aspects than many of the others I ran across that were just so bad I had to laugh.

I am still curious as to what in the article is historically misrepresented or twisted. I do see a few things that try to make Bush look worse. Quite unnecessary.

Quote:
19. Like Hitler, Bush has no qualms about imposing "regime change" by installing Quisling-style client governments reinforced by full-scale military occupation under a military governor.


20. Like Hitler, Bush curtails civil liberties and depends on detention centers (i.e. concentration camps) such as Guantanamo Bay.
Being the worst. With 27 just being off the wall as far as a comparison goes. But that is more current and less historical.

I agree with a lot of the comparisons. I disagree with a few.
Though I in no way believe that Bush could ever be as evil as Hitler was. I do believe that some of the similarities are quite interesting. But then, if you let a psycho-feminist do the comparison I'm sure you'd get a whole list of woman hating, penis having, macho B/S. The comparisons would be just as real. But in the end they wouldn't mean anything.
I posted this to get a debate going since it had been brought up in another thread. Looks like this one will fade away.
Oh well - better luck next topic I guess.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 07:27 PM       
2. Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized national outrage, in Hitler's case the Reichstag fire, in Bush's case the 9-11 catastrophe.

yes, and bush didn't just use 9-11 after the fact, the 9-11 attacks were allowed by the bush administration to be used as they have.
fear, demonization, new security boom for the folks that financed bush and oil contracts in afghanistan.

too bad hitler worked for his dictatorship.. bush is just a puppet put up by the real hitlers comparisons in the background..
bush wouldn't even be a polititian(or have a job) if it weren't for his family.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 08:47 PM        Hitler
I admit I've only just recently become interested in politics. 9-11 made me open my eyes. I'm upset that it took me so long, but I've spent the last bundle of years more interested in philosophy, history and religion.
I post articles like these and questions like my gun control question because I feel that I get a better understanding of how average Americans feel about these issues if I can follow a debate between them. I do read both or all sides of the issue, but I tend to post about the one I think will get a good debate going.

I feel that the opinions of the American public should be more important than they seem to be these days. It's why I like the debates here. For the most part what is said here doesn't change my view. But I have often ended up looking in new places for information because of something that someone has said. And that has given me far more to think about than I ever thought possible.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 10:18 PM       
The biggest and most important difference between the two, the way I see it, is that I believe that Hitler was evil. I do not believe Bush is evil. Just horribly misguided and foolish.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 11:15 PM        Hitler
Without a doubt Proto.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 11:17 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
I need attention. Acknowledge me. Please.
Anywho: You think Hitler invented all those things? Every leader calls on patriotism to get people under his or her cause. It isn't even just politics. Anytime people organize into a group, someone tries to convince the other members that certain actions are for the good of said group.

I don't know whats worse: To say what Bush does is as evil as what Hitler did, or that you are giving Hitler credit for inventing those methods.
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Old May 5th, 2003, 11:40 PM       
Achimp, so you say Bush is a moron. What colleges did you graduate from again?
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Old May 5th, 2003, 11:50 PM        Hitler
I don't think anyone here thinks Bush is evil. A tad bit nuts sure but evil.....not too likely.


Hitler may not have invented those things, but he did take them to levels not seen before or since. Thank God.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 12:04 AM       
Which colleges did your daddy pay your way into, and through to graduation vince?

Chimp and I are both paying and working our own way through college on our own, which is more than i can say for dubya.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 12:09 AM       
Quote:
Achimp, so you say Bush is a moron. What colleges did you graduate from again?
Graduating from a college has nothing to do with one's status as a moron. Choking on a pretzel and banging your head on on a helicopter's hatch does.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 01:22 AM       
I am working at a Rite-Aid to pay my student loans...I HATE retail. At least hookers get to lie down and take their shoes off!
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Old May 6th, 2003, 08:10 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baalzamon
Which colleges did your daddy pay your way into, and through to graduation vince?

Chimp and I are both paying and working our own way through college on our own, which is more than i can say for dubya.

1) Who cares if W got his way paid through college? More power to him.

2) My dad died two days before I turned 18. I pay for my own college education. I already pay for the loans my mother and sister helped me take out. I work 40+ hours a week to pay for my education and my bills. I take care of myself. So, wipe the big ball of jizz off your face from me owning you like a whore, and don't open your mouth unless you are asked.


And IS, unless you are their experiencing history as it happens, you will NEVER get an unbaised view. Sorry to burst your bubble, but thats just the way it is.
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