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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 02:06 AM        Pope Calls for All Catholics to Fast on March 5 Against War
Too bad Catholics aren't "real" Christians such as yourself, right Ronnie??

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAEE8M4JCD.html

Pope Calls for All Catholics to Fast on March 5 Against War in Iraq

By Frances D'emilio Associated Press Writer
Published: Feb 23, 2003

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope John Paul II called on Catholics to fast on Ash Wednesday in the name of peace and said again on Sunday he worried a U.S.-led war against Iraq could unsettle the entire Middle East.
Looking wan and tired, John Paul opened his traditional Sunday remarks from his studio window overlooking St. Peter's Square by denouncing war as a way to resolve the conflict.

"We Christians in particular are called upon to be sentinels of peace," John Paul said, calling on Catholics to dedicate their fasting on Ash Wednesday, March 5, for the cause of peace.

On that day, the pope said, faithful will pray for "the conversion of hearts and the long-range vision of just decisions to resolve disputes with adequate and peaceful means."

He said that the fast, which Catholics traditionally conduct at the start of Lent to prepare themselves for Easter, is an "expression of penitence for the hate and violence which pollute human relations."

Fasting, an ancient practice shared by other religions, he said, also lets faithful "shed themselves of all arrogance."

Rainbow-hued peace banners fluttered in the crowd of tourists and pilgrims in the square. Surveys have shown Italians and many other Europeans oppose war, even if waged under the aegis of the United Nations, and earlier this month, about 1 million Italians marched through Rome to protest against the United States and its push for using military force.

"For months the international community is living in great apprehension for the danger of a war, which could unsettle the entire Middle East region and aggravate the tensions unfortunately already present in this beginning of the third millennium," the pontiff said.

"It is the duty of all believers, to whichever religion they belong, to proclaim that we can never be happy pitted one against the other; the future of humanity will never able to be secured by terrorism and by the logic of war," John Paul said.

While the pope has been hailed as a champion of peace by anti-war demonstrators ranging from environmentalists to communists, some in Italy challenged his view.

Radical Party leaders Sunday denounced what they saw as the pontiff's "equating terrorism and war, whatever war." Led by Marco Panella, the Radicals say they would like to see Saddam Hussein in exile and a democratic government under U.N. auspices to replace the Iraqi leader.

John Paul has been holding practically daily meetings with key players in the crisis over Iraq. In his latest effort, on Saturday, he met with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has been trying to line up support in Europe and elsewhere for Washington's insistence that military force is necessary if Baghdad doesn't quickly and completely comply with U.N. disarmament resolutions.

John Paul, 82 and struggling with Parkinson's disease and other health problems, appeared weary, his voice trailing off in the final words of his appeal, "blessed are the peacemakers," a phrase from the Gospel of Matthew.

John Paul made similar calls against conflict in the months before the 1991 Gulf War, but in this campaign, with the memory of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks making the world particularly apprehensive, he has seemed more determined than ever to do his part to persuade decision-makers against going to war.

AP-ES-02-23-03 0955EST
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ItalianStereotype ItalianStereotype is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 02:15 AM       
i dont know what to do :/
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 02:24 AM       
I anticipate Ronnie's response to have something to do with the tolerance of priests who molest children, thus avoiding the issue completely (in typical Raygun fashion).

Sorry, Italian. :/
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 02:25 AM        Re: Pope Calls for All Catholics to Fast on March 5 Against
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
Too bad Catholics aren't "real" Christians such as yourself, right Ronnie??
You know, when I first saw this thread, my first thought was to reply to this sarcastically saying that "This wouldn't apply to Ronnie."
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 10:26 AM       
Naldo; I know you're not a papist yourself; but seriously, what is your stand on the Catholic Church? Are the Christians or not? And if not, does the practice of their doctrine lead to Hell?

What in Catholic Doctrine do you object to? Is it the Idolatry of Papism itself (granted, a dilema, but they do trace their line directly to Peter whom Jesus himself appointed leader) or does the problem lie in the literal belief in the miracle of transubstantiation?
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 12:13 PM       
There is no official Idolatry of the Pope. People do this, but it is because of a misunderstanding.

And yes, Catholics are Christians. Where did all the Protestant sects come from?
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 12:44 PM       
I would certainly agree Catholics are Christians. I think the whole subject of what makes Christian a Christian should be raised here.

I would posit the following.

1.) You must believe in Jesus's Divinity, ie. he's Christ and not just a rabbi or prophet.

2.) You must believe in Christ's intercession, ie. He died for the sin of mankind and the faithful are washed of sin in the blood of the lamb.

3.) His role in the trinity is debatable, and your position on this says a lot about what sect of Christianity you may practice. There is much heated dicussion on this, as there is in general literal vs. metaphorical readings of the bible with various sides accusing the other of being 'not real Christians', but scholrs would be hard pressed to put much credence in the arguments on this subject.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2003, 01:39 PM       
I need to derail something before it gets started real quick. There was a man from Galillee whose name translates into Jesus born to an unwed woman whose name translates into Mary. So, no one needs to be a wise ass and refer to Him as a mythical figure. There is documented evidence He existed and was crucified. The argument is mainly for people who believe in Him.

I don't want to be a dick and I certainly don't want to exclude atheists who may actually have something to add to the conversation, I just get pissed when some asshole drops into the discussion and does the whole "God doesn't exist and I'm smarter than you" crap. Thats another discussion.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 12:03 AM       
Sure he existed and was crucified, but lots of people existed and where crucified, that doesnt make them divine.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 01:38 AM       
But the whole discussion is about those who believe He is devine. I am just hoping a bunch of asshole atheists (as in assholes who claim they are atheists) to come in and say "you are all dumb cuz he wasn't divine" or anything like that.

Anyway, Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity, one god, three manifestations/personalities/if there is a better word someone help me out. We believe they all existed and are all infinite.

The hardest part of this whole argument is the fact that the Bible is written in so many languages and has been handed down so many times, it is very open to interpretation.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 09:55 AM       
My question is not so much what seperates various sects of Christianity as what they agree on. What are the defining elemts of Christianity.

I'm spurred to ask the question because of Naldo's use of the phrase 'real Christian' and his assertation that he can say who is a Christian and who is not, regardless of how they define themselves.

That's what I'm looking to see folks weigh in on.

For instance, as a catholic, do you feel that folks who don't accept the idea of the Trinity (Father, son and holly spirit, with all having separate aspects but a single identity) but do accept Jesus as Christ (the messiah and divine in nature) are Christians. Is a dissavowal of the trinity enough to send you to hell if you still accept Jesus as saviour, lord, and son of God.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 02:11 PM       
The Nicene Creed is a basic outline for Catholic beliefs.

The Nicene Creed


We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 02:20 PM       
so are you going to fast blanco?
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 02:39 PM       
OK here is the thing. I greatly respect the Pope. The things he has gone through and accomplished have really helped the Church to get to the people who need the most help. He was part of the underground Polish resistance against the Nazis in WW2, so I am really suprised that he doesn't do something to help stand up to the tyranny.

About Papal infanlability: it only refers to topics of faith and morality. When it comes to politics, economics, etc, we know he can easily be wrong. He can offer wisdom, insight, consel and all that other good stuff, but it isn't infallable.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 02:58 PM       
In addition, this Pope (in one of his best acts, in my opinion) declared tht he does not speak ex cathedra (infallibly) at all. He does not reject the doctrine, merely rules it out of his Papacy. So the admonition to fast is a call and not an order.

Blanco, would you concider all the lements of the creed as litmus tests for 'true Christians'? For instance, can someone agree with everything in the creed except the neccesity(for salvation) of Baptism?

I am not a Christian myself, but admire the moral teachings of Jesus greatly. My interpretation of the New Testament is that while there are many admonitions, suggestions and lessons, there are also widely ranging standards for being a "Christian". So I return to the gospels whos narrative predates formal Christianity and come away with opinion that beyond Jesus being the Son of God and opening the door to heaven via his sacrafice, only God would be in a position to know who was a 'true' Christian and who was not.

I bring all this up because I find the tendency of organized religions (and Christianity is not alone in this) to splinter over and over, focusing more and more attention on who is or is not truly one of God's flock, puzzling and disturbing.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 03:36 PM       
I have always thought it to be really arrogant for one human being to tell another "you are going to hell." Especially over dogma. I know one guy who is a Seven Day Advantist and he tells me I am going to hell because I go to Church on Sunday instead of Saturday. And that I don't just stay home and avoid work on the Sabbath (althought, I make up for it on Fridays).

For the first accusation, I ask him, "Who makes God's watch?"


"And why does he care if I go Saturday or Sunday as ong as I go and I follow His laws?"

I was taught that there are two major commandments. Love God. Love each other. Think about what you do and if it violates either of those. If you manage to keep both commandments, you are doing OK. Everything else stems from there.


About Baptism, Jesus was baptised in the Jordan river. When the Apostles lef the room to preach the Gospel on Pentacost, they started baptising people. So, this is where we get that sacrament.

Also, Papal Infallability has only been used twice. And the first time was to introduce the idea of Papal Infallability. Kinda funny if you ask me.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 04:06 PM       
Thanks. The two commandment test is actually quite helpful. Any protestants care to chime in?

Naldo, you've been strangely absent, but let me throw the question little wider.

Are there any self professed Christians here who feel that certain sects are not 'real christians' and their adherents are damned?
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 06:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
About Papal infanlability: it only refers to topics of faith and morality. When it comes to politics, economics, etc, we know he can easily be wrong. He can offer wisdom, insight, consel and all that other good stuff, but it isn't infallable.
So in other words, Christianity has nothing to do with peace and the maintenance of it??? Christ mentioned nothing of violence and how one should react to it???
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 06:10 PM       
Of course He did. Obviously, the Pope is going to encourage peace. However, we have many ideas how peace is achieved.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 06:19 PM       
Right, but if you really are a devout Catholic, I think you would value the opinion of the Pope at LEAST as much as the opinion of President Bush.

I'll be fasting on Wednesday.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 06:32 PM       
me too and i'm not catholic or christian (i don't know what the heck i am), i just don't want anymore people to die needlessly in a war that really doesn't need to be fought, and if this is one way to help well then, ok, i'm in.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 06:42 PM       
The thing is, I see this war as needed. If done properly, we can avoid a bigger conflict.

I do value the Pope's opinion. I just happen to disagree.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 07:03 PM       
GAAAAHHH! I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 09:21 PM       
I think war is immoral no matter what. Worse, I think it is impracticable. If we spent a fifth of the energy and money on working toward sytems of lasting peace, systems bring a rule of law to a world scale, we might get somewhere.

It's ike I tell my kids. Use your words.
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Old Feb 25th, 2003, 09:36 PM       
What do you tell your kids when they get punched in the mouth?

And I don't believe in abstract morality.
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