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  #1  
kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 12:21 PM        Can You Imagine?
Can you imagine if some country blew up all of what was once your home and deprived you of the most basic means of life support and communication with others? Can you then imagine if the invading country said, through translators because they don't speak your language, that they're doing it all for you and that all would be well soon? Can you further imagine running into a lot of bureaucratic red tape in trying to lay claim and retribution for what, even under the old "bad" government, was yours? Then, even I would find it hard to imagine listening to my local leaders spread rhetoric and rumors without contradiction, and not be incited into retaliation and not react because, for all I can see evidenced around me, my life is shit and doesn't look like it's getting better anytime soon. Can you imagine that?! Me neither. I'm glad that sort of thing doesn't happen for real. THAT would suck.
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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 12:46 PM       
ya but the papers and rightwing keeps reporting that our soldiers were greeted with flags and 'thanks for liberation' celebrations!

the thing i can't imagine is how people still believe we have been 'successful' in this endeavor.

like the right wing says.. what's wrong with cutting social programs and putting that money toward defense for without defense we don't need social progams cause we'll all be dead..

how do you argue with that?
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 12:54 PM       
Social programs are something the Government does not need to be handling. They are something for the States to handle themselves. If the people wish for social programs to be handled this way, than they should have the right to vote on them being handled this way. It is the government's job to prevent the rights of the people from being violated, to protect the people from external threats, and to settle interstate disputes and conflicts.
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O71394658 O71394658 is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 12:58 PM       
Ranxer, you are a funny character.
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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 01:16 PM       
hah raven.. you missed my point.. the fed is cutting state budgets too..

the rightwing arguement seems to be based on an idea that many countries want to destroy america becuase they are envious of our 'prosperity' so we should be more militarized to defend against this.. to me this is ludicris backwards and ignorant.. the reasons as i see them for terrorist attacks are our corporate crimes against humanity.. whether its Walmart paying 19 cents an hour to thirdworld country workers or our corporations taking advantage of countries with little environmental protection or enforcement and dumping toxic chemicals whereever they can. we call our cheap goods some kind of prosperity when these prices are simply a result of ripping someone else off!?

so the rightwings answer is militarism .. and my answer to terrorism is corporate crackdown on abuse.. and INCREASES in social programs so we have fewer people in desparation..
how can a terrorist group recruit if the poeple have basic necessities(clean water, air, medcare, education)?! they can't ..

you rightwingers want to fight violence with violence, i think we need to fight violence by breaking the cycle.. stop corporate violence first!

/steps off his soapbox
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 01:32 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
hah raven.. you missed my point.. the fed is cutting state budgets too..

the rightwing arguement seems to be based on an idea that many countries want to destroy america becuase they are envious of our 'prosperity' so we should be more militarized to defend against this.. to me this is ludicris backwards and ignorant.. the reasons as i see them for terrorist attacks are our corporate crimes against humanity.. whether its Walmart paying 19 cents an hour to thirdworld country workers or our corporations taking advantage of countries with little environmental protection or enforcement and dumping toxic chemicals whereever they can. we call our cheap goods some kind of prosperity when these prices are simply a result of ripping someone else off!?

so the rightwings answer is militarism .. and my answer to terrorism is corporate crackdown on abuse.. and INCREASES in social programs so we have fewer people in desparation..
how can a terrorist group recruit if the poeple have basic necessities(clean water, air, medcare, education)?! they can't ..

you rightwingers want to fight violence with violence, i think we need to fight violence by breaking the cycle.. stop corporate violence first!

/steps off his soapbox
Fed's touching state budget is in and of itself wrong, but that's an argument for another time.

It is not the American government's job to police the actions our corporations perform in foreign countries. We are not the world's protector. We must take a role in helping the world, when needed. For what happens in the world affects us. But as such the government has no right to force our corporations to obey laws, or laws we enact involving foreign soil, on foreign soil. But than it has always been better to make the government do what you yourself are too lazy to do. Don't like how certain corporations work? Learn to use mass manipulation and the public's sympathies.
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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 01:41 PM       
oh lovely .. our corporations spend billions on "mass manipulation and the public's sympathies" and i'm supposed to compete with them?!

noway, if there's one thing our government should do its protect people. American corporations harming or taking advantage of people in other countries creates a backlash that harms americans.. so curbing corporate abuses abroad IS protecting americans at home or anywhere else.

i'd like to see a product label 'violence free' too bad there's only a couple products that would truly meet the standards.. at least my standards.. as it is i can't really shop anywhere at all
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 01:51 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
oh lovely .. our corporations spend billions on "mass manipulation and the public's sympathies" and i'm supposed to compete with them?!

noway, if there's one thing our government should do its protect people. American corporations harming or taking advantage of people in other countries creates a backlash that harms americans.. so curbing corporate abuses abroad IS protecting americans at home or anywhere else.

i'd like to see a product label 'violence free' too bad there's only a couple products that would truly meet the standards.. at least my standards.. as it is i can't really shop anywhere at all
So I'm guessing PETA doesn't actually cause change? They obviously can't compete with the corportations.

Sorry no its not. Its once again enforcing on rules where they don't belong. Under such guidelines we could easily attack any country we chose to, as it could be construed as protecting Americans. But than again you whole argument is based solely off of slippery slope. You are claiming gurantees upon probabilities that require so many factors. And you aren't even looking at the opposite side of the board. What about Taiwan? I have heard nothing of such mass quanities of terrorism and unrest coming from there. So tell me does this slippery slope cause children to grow up to be Hitler's aimed at America?
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 01:58 PM       
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Originally Posted by ranxer
/steps off his soapbox
*stomps on soapbox, so you can't get back on it*

So you're basically saying that corporate excess and abuses are the reasons YOU think it would be Ok for American innocents to be killed in a 9/11 style sttack?

...cause I don't remember Osama including Wal-Mart in his infitada....

There is no valid rationalization for terroristic murder of innocents. You can say that you see their intentions, but you have to recognize that NO injustice EVER can be addressed appropriately with the intentional taking of innocent, unrelated lives just to prove a point. I'm sure you guys will take this opportunity to mis-label millions of American actions as terrorist activity... knock yourselves out... That's a whole nuther subject, however....

There is some validity to your argument, but you seem so focused on the target of your own rage: Corporatism, that you are failing to see that billions of dollars are being funneled into terrorism. This is money that could be buying food and shelter and clothing for those oppressed peasant/terrorists with no other way available for them. That money is not being spent to improve the Middle East. It is being used to kill the West. It has nothing to do with Wal-Mart or Corporate greed or whatever.

The Middle East is extremely resource rich. There is no reason for poverty to even exist there, as you will see for yourself in Iraq within the next ten years or so. The citizens of these countries are not just being neglected. They are being oppressed, and for a specific goal... that being to feed the fire under folks like yourself in hopes of getting you to fight for their side.

As for state budgets being cut: Good. Cut the money from Federal Programs and raise your own money. Why should states be beholden to the Federal Government? The Federal Government was intended to serve the States, not the other way around.


...and ranxor: You can't argue with that... at least successfully. You can, however, look at how that military money is spent, and complain about the excessive waste. If you feel that there are people in the world that desperately need your charity, I'd suggest you help them. As for whether I'll throw my money in with yours, how bout you leave that up to me, Ok?
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 02:08 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
As for state budgets being cut: Good. Cut the money from Federal Programs and raise your own money. Why should states be beholden to the Federal Government? The Federal Government was intended to serve the States, not the other way around.
The Federal Government shouldn't have any form of grasp on the State's budget. The only money that should ever pass hands from one or the other, are the tithes/taxes payed to the Federal Government for its services.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 02:10 PM       
Don't worry, Preech. Ranxor is just mad that his friends went on to form Audioslave and are having a nice new career while he is struggling to be a solo artist.
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 02:12 PM       
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Don't worry, Preech. Ranxor is just mad that his friends went on to form Audioslave and are having a nice new career while he is struggling to be a solo artist.
Thou shall never mention the name of Audioslave. For thee beings that are Audioslave are a cancer upon the mind of the living, and a tainter of the souls of the dead.
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GAsux GAsux is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 02:20 PM        Yeah
I'm pretty sure religion played no role whatsoever in any Arab led terrorism against the west in the last decade. Nope, it was all because we've been using cheap Arab labor to make Nike's, or something like that. I don't recall bin Laden ever proclaiming any grievances with regards to religion. Just that he was pissed that Microsoft was using Arab labor to make software with the backing of the U.S. government, hence the need for jihad.

And Im pretty sure that if we just shipped all our money into Arab dominant places where anti-western sentiment is rampant, they'd start liking us more.
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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 02:21 PM       
alright, ill buy that white collar crime is only part of what creates american backlash.. the cia is another part.

Quote:
So tell me does this slippery slope cause children to grow up to be Hitler's aimed at America?
collateral damage, failed reconstruction, chaos, depleted uranium,
lies told by our administration.. all create resentment. then on top of that the same folks that made profit on bombing and shooting up iraq are profiting on the reconstruction! Iraqis are supposed to be thankful for this? i can understand how a NEW wave of terrorism may be a result.. aimed not just at America but our partners especially isreal. oh yea, and what makes you think that america will be responsible for any rebuilding in iraq? as predicted before the war.. any american effort will be inundated with sabotage for the religious extremists that Saddam was keeping at bay will never let america appear to succeed at anything in the middle east if they get thier way. working with the UN is our only way out of iraq as i see it. coalitions coalitions coalitions.

Quote:
YOU think it would be Ok for American innocents to be killed in a 9/11 style sttack?
hah, hardly! but im 180degrees from what our administration has done in response.. almost on every single thing they've done.. weather its ignoring the geneva convention for prisoners or killing 10k plus afghanis. i just dont agree with the philisophy of an eye for an eye..
as an athiest i find it bizaar that i agree with jesus more than many christians :8)
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 04:08 PM       
The Geneva Convention only applies to POWs and other war related things.
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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 23rd, 2003, 05:08 PM       
yes, we violate a lot of documents we expect others to uphold , geneva convention for pow's.. i forget the others we've signed onto like the human rights protection of not targeting infrastructure, or targeting civilians(you think bombing water treatment communications and electricity don't harm civilians?) and the constitutional rights we violate when we aprehend suspects and detain them for a year without notifying anyone or appointing a lawyer or even having any charges.

vince: what the hell are you talking about? i don't even know what audioslave is.

Ga.. doesnt Jihad imply religion?
doesnt fundamentalist imply religion?
what do they mean then when they(news, articles etc) say saddam was secular vs. many other governments in the mideast!?
and isnt' a holy war on american imperialism none other than religious war? or are you just trying to be funny?

Quote:
And Im pretty sure that if we just shipped all our money into Arab dominant places where anti-western sentiment is rampant, they'd start liking us more.
Oops hope yer right
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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 24th, 2003, 11:28 AM       
Why must you guys always try to oversimplify it into a "one thing" type argument? Rome wasn't built in a day and the U.S. certainly did not build the animosity toward itself in just the recent years. The state of our world reputation is complex, multi-layered and took years of fuck-ups to get to the point where we are today. A little respect here! Just sayin'

P.S. But NAFDA is going to prove we can play together equally and make everything all better.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Jun 24th, 2003, 01:35 PM       
You might call them fuck-ups........

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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 24th, 2003, 01:46 PM       
You're right, our foreign policy has been near perfect and we have done absolutely nothing to earn the scorn of foreign sovereignties. They just hate us because they're mean, ugly and bad people.

P.S. By fuck-ups, I'm in no way making comment on the contributions of our valiant service members (of which I am a veteran) who, more or less, have no choice in where and when they serve.
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