Sethomas -- Gematria

[kahljorn]

What was it you said about the gematria of the hebrew language not being created until after the founding of the penteauch? Did you mean the numerical values weren't equated with words until after, or that they simply didnt have a numerical value for the alphabet?

And what's your "Source".

[Sethomas]

"Each letter in Bebrew has a numerical value... This usage is not biblical. The earliest traces of it are found on Maccabean coins (about the second century B.C.)"

From Biblical Hebrew Step by Step, by Menahem Mansoor.

[kahljorn]

okay.. but did you know there are no numbers in hebrew? There's just letters, with numerical values.

[Sethomas]

Obviously.

[kahljorn]

Okay, that's all i was wondering. You made it sound like the letters didn't even have a numerical value until after the creation of the torah.

[Sethomas]

Umm, that's true, though.

[kahljorn]

you're right, when they went to buy food instead of saying ill have aleph apple .. what did they do?

[Sethomas]

It's the same thing as how we didn't need the arabic symbol 6 to say "six", genius. I'd show the difference between the written and spoken numbers, but it's been months since i studied hebrew and I've forgotten most of it.

[kahljorn]

Yea, but when you're speaking you don't need "Symbols" but you do need something to say. That's why you're speaking. The symbol had absolutely nothing to do with the letter being a number.

[kahljorn]

Anyway, thanks for trying.. or being an asshole about it. You'll make a good philosopher someday. I'm going to go scroll through legions of etymology.

[Perndog]

Can you combine a few characters into a word that signifies a number?

Like "SIX" for example?

[Sethomas]

That was my point. Just because you have words for numbers doesn't mean you have symbols, and the case of Hebrew is that the phonetic characters weren't associated with numbers until long after the Torah was written. I've read that in a couple of places, but my teach-yourself Hebrew book is the only source I brought with me to Chicago.

[kahljorn]

My point is that words can be associated with a number without a symbol. Like saying "Six", you don't need to be able to write it to say it... children learn to speak before they learn to write. And in the case of hebrew, since ALEPH is both One and A(kind of like english when you say something like, "A apple"). Besides, i think before the actually writ symbol they used stuff like pictographs, and egyptian stuff. I was just wondering if you had any resources on it that I didn't.
The best ive found is that Gematria was supposively borrowed from the greeks, because the greek alphabet had the required amount of numbers while the hebrew alphabet didnt add the five extra required number/letters till later. Except you then find that the greeks got their idea of an alphabet from the Semites, since their original alphabet had 28 letters, while the supposed modern hebrew at the time only had 22. The problem with that is, well, define what the fuck a semite is and you can easily turn it into "Hebrew".
Oh, also, the only reason you need a total of 27 letters is because of the spectrum of numbers; 1-9 10-90 100-900. Except nobody uses the final form(the final five numbers that were added) in gematria, so that point is moot, and the entire argument collapses.
Besides that, greek people have a thing with being recognized as "Special". LOOK WE HAD PEOPLE LIKE PLATO AND SOCRATES, who we put to death for being too smart for us, because they learned from egypt not us.
The biggest question would be, what form of hebrew did they speak at the time of the writing of the torah? Anyway, im asking all this too some jewish scholar guy. The only problem is he's a stuck up arrogant prick like you, who doesn't really know all too much, just talks like he knows alot.

"Can you combine a few characters into a word that signifies a number?

Like "SIX" for example?"

No, A means one. There simply is no symbol for one except A.

[Pub Lover]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

...he's a stuck up arrogant prick like you, who doesn't really know all too much, just talks like he knows alot...

That's all I've ever wanted to be.

[Sethomas]

I checked my Hebrew book, and the words for numbers ARE NOT THE SAME FUCKING THING AS THEIR SYMBOLS. For example, the word for "one" is NOT aleph, it's pronounced "enad", if I'm reading correctly. At any rate, it has three consonants and two vowels. So, YOU ARE WRONG.

[kahljorn]

You see, that's where you keep getting lost. We aren't talking about Words and numbers, we're talking about letters and numbers.

Also, you may be saying Achad.

[kahljorn]

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/4_chart.html

[Perndog]

Aren't you overdue for a barbiturate overdose?

[ziggytrix]

pardon me for asking, but WHO THE FUCK CARES?

[Sethomas]

Khal doesn't understand what I'm saying, so obviously I'm the one getting lost. Right.

[kahljorn]

Actually I'm arguing with a group of Qabalists and seth at the same time, and none of them are smart enough to supply me with enough argument to denounce the other ;/
Stupid qabalists. One of them actually said to me, ITS A DIVINE BOOK AND THATS WHY ITS MATHEMATICAL, and now i hate them.

But yea ,anyway, ive been studying the qabalah lately and I'm trying to find out the validity of it, or as close to validity or disvalidity as i can. The closest i can find to validity is that ancient hebrew had the same gematric values for letters as before, like A is strong/leader and made with an ox. This is like modern hebrew.
The arguments I've seen against it are that it didn't appear until on a coin, in 2nd century bc. That's the biggest argument against it. Also that there are only 22 letters in hebrew until they started using square hebrew, which had final forms, that's there other big argument. But it's pointless, because you dont use final forms in gematria, or most people don't. I've never met anyone who does.

[kahljorn]

Seth, there's alot of different forms of numbers in hebrew. From what i understand, Achad and Aleph are one. the point is not to actually be able to ask for an apple(albeit that would be nice to know, apples are good), just what way they used to express numbers in ancient hebrew, and if A still had numerical form in that time. The reason this is important, is because that would give a leaning of credibility to it. So far the closest I've been able to find skips entirely over the matter of numbers and goes straight to the gematric equivalents. Which wouldn't do anything to unvalidate it.

[Sethomas]

I'm glad we have khal on the boards to discern who's smart around here.

[kahljorn]

I'm sorry, but coins from 200 bc being the first time that it was seen, besides on greek paprii for isopsephia back to close to 400 bc, doesnt do much to prove if they did it or not. I've read that argument like 75083567350 times, and it's just nothing. Especially since ancient hebrew and modern hebrew are way different. There's also nothing of when it began, or why.

The babylonians also widely used gematria by the 8th century , and wouldn't you know it? Hebrews used a form of assyro-babylonian sexagesimal, and before that the egyptian stuff. I'm going to have to study egypt now to find out what's up with their language, luckily i know someone who studies that culture religiously... I also believe the torah at some point passed through the hands of these particular cultures. Coincidence? Nope. Coincidence is for bitches.

[Sethomas]

What exactly are you trying to prove by going against academic consensus? Do you have some retarded agenda that only works if the Torah was written with gematria in mind? You sound really desparate to make it older than it really is.