Is it just me, or is Individuality the opposite of Religion?

[Ronnie Raygun]

"Is that your personal interpretation of your individual realtionship, or divine revealtion and true for all?"

Both

"See, I think any precept that is judged by an individual to be true for all, wether they see this as part of their relationship with the divine, is departing individuality and entering religion."

Just because two or more people come to the same conclusion, doesn't mean that "religion" has anything to do with it. If you are trying to say that I embrace "religion" you are dead wrong. I embrace Jesus Christ and disregard man's traditions.

Now, ask me about man's traditions.

[mburbank]

I think you have a highly specialized deffinition of religion that suits you personally in that it allows you to think you're not a part of it.

I think when several million folks shre the exact same personal relationship with God, and that they tke this personal relationship to be contain absolute truths which negate the validity of other folks 'personal relationship' with God, that's religion.

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


I don't see anything here that doesn't fit what it is you (or I for that matter) are involved in. Just because you reject speciffic practices of speciffic rfeligous groups, and refuse instruction from their heirarchy, does not take you off religions hook. Religion is personal OR institutional.


I believe that sincere and dedicated contemplation of the divine as it enters into and instructs ones life is valid. God is infinitely complex and there are (and have been) many ways to experience communion with God.

A famous rabbi was once asked how much of the Torah he could teach while standing on one foot. "All of it" he replied, balancing. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". returning to both feet, he finished, saying "All the rest is commentary."

[Isaac]

Most very religious people I've met, are highly indoctrinated, and are definalty not individualist, most people of a formal religion are not individuals...and why is the difference between Athiesm and Satanic Worship, so damn hard to comprehend?...I know thats unrelated...

[Sethomas]

Too many people use faith as a crutch. Having an organized religion just makes it easier for them.

And Ronnie, Max does have a point. Just because your religion isn't institutional or doctrinal doesn't mean it's not a religion.

[Immortal Goat]

What madness have I started?

to answer your question, Isaac, the reason that people cant distinguish between Atheism and Satan worship is because people find one to be as bad as the other. Atheists, in their mind, are Hellbound anyway, so they think that they may as well be Satan worshippers.

[ranxer]

has anyone seen 'the devils playground' ? a movie about the amish.. one line stood out to me.. it was an amish preacher who said "individuals are the problem" ie people breaking out into experimentation threatened the whole.. i think the amish are interesting and the movie helped me confirm that to me religion is a form of population/social control.. now i'm not saying that is bad, i'm an athiest and have my own view of what is sacred but would like to find a common ground for all people and all religions to agree on so we can ensure our future.

as far as this thread is concerned i'd agree(for what its worth) that religion in general is anti individual.. so there's two extreems.. er one anyway.. amish are nearly unbending to the group mind tradition.. what's the other religion that is too adoptive? i don't know but id like to better understand how religions define accepting the individual.

if yer wondering what this athiest thinks of religion i'm all for it if it accepts my right to exist and values my ideas as part of the whole in regards to what is sacred.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"I think you have a highly specialized deffinition of religion that suits you personally in that it allows you to think you're not a part of it."

I guess that's how one might see it from the outside looking in.

"I think when several million folks shre the exact same personal relationship with God, and that they tke this personal relationship to be contain absolute truths which negate the validity of other folks 'personal relationship' with God, that's religion."

You just hate my belief and wish to argue with anything I say. Stop the hate, Max. Other people's relationships are none of my concern. Mine is one on one, not one on a million.

"I don't see anything here that doesn't fit what it is you (or I for that matter) are involved in. Just because you reject speciffic practices of speciffic rfeligous groups, and refuse instruction from their heirarchy, does not take you off religions hook. Religion is personal OR institutional."

This does not apply to me............."2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices". And that's what I was refering to when talking about "religion". I don't consider anything else to be "religion". Anything truly spiritual is a "relationship". And that's quite different.


"I believe that sincere and dedicated contemplation of the divine as it enters into and instructs ones life is valid. God is infinitely complex and there are (and have been) many ways to experience communion with God."

I disagree. GOD will not conform to us. We must conform to GOD.

"A famous rabbi was once asked how much of the Torah he could teach while standing on one foot. "All of it" he replied, balancing. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". returning to both feet, he finished, saying "All the rest is commentary."

A famous preacher was once asked how one could get to heaven. "Repent and ask Jesus Christ to be your savior", he replied. "GOD will take care of the rest."

I think it's silly to say that "Do unto others........" is the only thing worth mentioning. There are no words to describe how stupid that is. Especially since you have done it yourself, Max.

[Sethomas]

Stop the hate, Max.

[AChimp]

A famous preacher was once asked how one could get to heaven. "Repent and ask Jesus Christ to be your savior", he replied. "GOD will take care of the rest."

That reminds me of that "kill 'em all and let God sort it out" bumper sticker.

I don't really see anything wrong with faith, but it's a symbol of mental bankruptcy. To believe in something just based on its merits and what other people tell you seems like such a cop out to me.

Now, if everybody analyzed the facts and came to the same--or at least similar--conclusions, then there might be something to it. But, since there's such a broad spectrum of faiths in the world, it's obvious that there's no "correct" choice and therefore faith just becomes something that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling at night.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"I don't really see anything wrong with faith, but it's a symbol of mental bankruptcy. To believe in something just based on its merits and what other people tell you seems like such a cop out to me."

Chimp, you won't understand it until you experience it.

"Now, if everybody analyzed the facts and came to the same--or at least similar--conclusions, then there might be something to it."

Not everyone is going to allow Christ to save them. That doesn't mean Jesus isn't the savior of man. It just mean's that some men have made a bad choice.

"But, since there's such a broad spectrum of faiths in the world, it's obvious that there's no "correct" choice and therefore faith just becomes something that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling at night."

There's a crap load of fakes out there which makes it more difficult for people to make the right choice. Mankind gave Satan the power to do so. Faith doesn't give me a fuzzy feeling at night. I am comforted when tragedy strikes however because I know GOD has a plan and I have faith that it's perfect.

[AChimp]

Well, hot damn! I'm convinced now!

Christianity is the correct choice because it has a clause to explain why all the other ones are wrong.

[mburbank]

"I think you have a highly specialized deffinition of religion that suits you personally in that it allows you to think you're not a part of it."
-Me

"I guess that's how one might see it from the outside looking in."
-Nalds
Now you're pulling a Vinth. In the English language, words have agreed upon meanings meanings. You are choosing to use the word 'religion' to describe things other than your personal relationship with God. That's got nothing to do with 'outside' or 'inside', it has to do with you attempting to bend language to suit yoiur needs, which is purely semantic and foolish. You define yourself as rejecting 'religion' and cling to to that deffinition without realising you misused the word.

I understand what your saying. You feel your one on one relationship is divinely inspired, it's relationship with Dogma is causal, and that your direct relationship supercedes any collective traditions even if they coincide with your beliefs. I get that. Your quarrel is with the dictionary.

I think your need to see my asking that you respect the meaning of word as hate is fairly unchristian. I try, in my way, to get you to express yourself more clearly. Clear expression is worthy goal.

For instance:

" There are no words to describe how stupid that is. Especially since you have done it yourself, Max."
Naldo

Honestly, sincerely, I have no idea what you're getting at with this two sentence structure. Especially since I've done what? Done unto others? Disocvered there are no words to describe? Used words to describe 5that which there are no words to describe?

I find your desire to see me as hateful and/or hating curious. I would be interested to see evidence, and iof a slightly better quality than your previous, absurd contention that I 'hate' what America stands for. I can quote things you've said that are full of hate, particularly your desire to see more scoff laws shot in the face with rubber bullets.

I think there is a measure of covenience in you seeing hatred in me.

Vinth sees the refelction of his own seething hatreds when he looks at me. Is that your explanation?

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun

This does not apply to me............."2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices". And that's what I was refering to when talking about "religion". I don't consider anything else to be "religion". Anything truly spiritual is a "relationship". And that's quite different.


I disagree. GOD will not conform to us. We must conform to GOD.

Somebody needs to read Ralph Waldo Emerson's "Self Reliance"

[VinceZeb]

Maybe he just thinks you are a fucking punk, Hebey.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Maybe he just thinks you are a fucking punk, Hebey.

Vinth hates Max because he's too moronic to be properly self-loathing.

[mburbank]

"Maybe he just thinks you're a Vinthism Vinthism, Vinthism."
-La Clambake.

Probably not. Naldo's reasoning is very simple, but it's reasoning, not just gut reaction nd deffensiveness, like yours. My guess is

A: He has a reason, it's just misguided and unexamined
B: He finds your casual ethnic slurs far more offensive than I ever will
and
C: The last thing he wants is confirmtion from the likes of you. I think both you and he would do well to examine the company your views afford you.

[mburbank]

" Jew, Jew, Jew, I don't care, you Jewish Jew, Jew."
-Vinth

[Bennett]

Maybe when Tom Cruise's next movie comes out, we can have
I-mock stage a battle between the Catholic Samurai and the Scientologist Samurai.

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

The whole point of the story is that NO ONE is an individualist. NO ONE, period. Everyone has their set standards of behavior and beliefs that fall in line with some religion, group, or practice out there. But we are not robots. We are individuals and yet we are always parts of groups.

I actually agree with that. Huh.

[Immortal Goat]

I do not believe that no one is a individual. I do fall into a group of people, but i do not agree with EVERYTHING they do, and most people are the same way. A person can consider themselves Republican and yet have some liberal views, and the same goes for religions. If I had to say what belief I follow, it wouldn't be a religion at all, but rather a mindset. I am a transcendentalist. Vinth, I know that is a big word, but it isn't hard to understand. It means I THINK FOR MYSELF!! As should everyone.

[Anonymous]

Vince bashing is reserved for the smart people, IG.

[Immortal Goat]

I happen to be a smart person, Chojin. I consistently score up around the 97th percentile on placement tests and ACTs. That means that only 3% of the people in the country are smarter than me. Where does that leave people like Vinth?

[Sethomas]

The ACT doesn't measure intelligence, smart one. By the way, a score in the 97th percentile means that only two percent scored better than you; the third percent scored the same.

That I have to point that out to you makes me wonder what exactly those numbers reflect.

[Immortal Goat]

ok, so i kinda screwed up on that part. i know that the ACT doesn't measure intelligence, its just measuring how much i actually know. and as for the 2 or 3 % thing, im just going by how the scores were explained to me as a kid.

[Anonymous]

Congratulations on being a paragon of wisdom to your middle school peers. I loved how you referenced some official documentation to prove that you aren't stupid. Most people would have just not been stupid to prove that, but I can tell you're different.

And I suppose it's that difference that puts you in the top 3%.