CHURCH AND STATE

[mburbank]

"Maxi... should everyone be allowed to pray at the high school football game if they want......as long as Congress doesn't make it a law saying that they have to pray?"
-Ronnie

Muddily phrased as always but close enough to a direct question.

You ask MY opinion, and I'll give it freely. Everyone should be and IS allowed to pray. No one can stop you from praying.

I think having an official from the school lead a prayer is something you shouldn't do. It makes a statement of institutional support (and as in the case of your own belief that yours is the only true religion) and thereby excludes others. Should a student wish to lead a prayer (and I don't see why people can't pray silently, it's not like God is deaf) I personally see nio problem with this, as long as any student wishing to lead prayers for their stated religion is allowed to do so. This might prove problematic in getting the game started, but freedom of religion is important.

Now be nice, go back to the other thread and see if you can find a way to substantiate your OUTRAGEOUS LIE. that I hate what America Stands for.

Then you can go to the other thread and answr the even simpler question, why is it alright for you to lie? I really think it's your turn.

[Ronnie Raygun]

So.....you don't believe in the first amendment then.

The first amendment states.....

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So if you believe in seperation of church and state (which is not a quote of the forefathers that yoiu claim to support) to the extent that people cannot have a public prayer at a football game, you support putting limits on peoples free speech.

Since the Congress has made no law establishing a prayer in public schools it should be allowed.

Also, there's this little point.....


"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Which is EXACTLY what the gov't is doing.

Sorry Maxi.

You lose.

[mburbank]

Don't be sorry.

First, square these to statements.

Yours: So.....you don't believe in the first amendment then.

Mine: Everyone should be and IS allowed to pray. No one can stop you from praying.


at highschool football games, on subways, in congress, etc.

I offered my opinion that institutions of government ought not to endorse prayers, and I stated the reasons I thought they should not do so. I pointed out the pitfall you let yourself in for. I advocated no law, and in fact, I do not advocate any such law.

So you misunderstand me. Not a lie this time, just confusion caused by your eagerness.

Ask yourself these questions at your hypothetical football game. If prayers are to be lead, who will decide which people and which religions. Who will empower this body to make that decision? Should anyone who wishes to lead the crowd in prayer b allowed to do so bfore the game can start? Who will decide of the prayer, the religion and the leader are legitimate? Will you allow Satanist Prayer? If I present myself as a Mithrain and wish to lead my fellow Mithraains in prayer by drinking bulls blood, will this be allowed? And can the school provide cups without crossing any lines, as they have provided amplification for the assumedly christian speaker? How much time should be aloowed to each religion? How will speakers apply for the right to speak?

Since assume the crowd is there to watch football game, these question, though they surely strike you as absurd, might best be avoided by praying by yourself to yourself, which no one can ever stop you from doing.

[sspadowsky]

Raygun, how does the First Amendment "directly oppose" separation of church and state?
________
WENDIE 99

[Ronnie Raygun]

"I offered my opinion that institutions of government ought not to endorse prayers, and I stated the reasons I thought they should not do so. I pointed out the pitfall you let yourself in for. I advocated no law, and in fact, I do not advocate any such law."

The pitfall is yours. If you claim to stand with the forefathers and The Constitution then you must believe in the 1st amendment (which you don't) and the 1st amendment says that gov't can make no law restricting the free exercise of religion (which they did) and that Congress shall not make a law respecting the establishment of a religion (which they didn't).

So, what's your problem?

"Ask yourself these questions at your hypothetical football game."

It's a true story Maxi. It happened in Texas.

Everything else is irrelevent. Let's focus on the words of our forefathers which you claim to support.

[mburbank]

I will be happy to enter this thread and counter your points, such as they are, and point out all my points that you completely failed to adress when and if you return to the thread about Me "Hating What America Stands for" and answering the DIRECT QUESTIONS there in.

I might even respond if you answer my other recent DIRECT QUESTION, why you feel free to lie.

Until then, I must assume that your presence in all these other threads is merely obfuscation.

[sspadowsky]

Raygun, how does the First Amendment "directly oppose" the separation of church and state?
________
Nexium Lawyer

[Ronnie Raygun]

HAHAHAHHAHA!

You COWARD!

I completely stomped you and now YOU are hiding!!!

Shame on you.

You been proven to be Un-American.

[mburbank]

Congratulations. Your last post was chock full of Christian Virtue.

It contained gloating and lies, two things Jesus loved.

In the meantime, why not go back to that other thread and state

step 1.) State something America stands for. Try to do it in a sentence
as in "America stands for ---------------." If that seems to hard, maybe it's becuase you're not clear on what America does stand for.

step 2.) Show how I hate it.

Give it a shot! You might find you like answering a direct question.

Come on, now. Be fair. I made a whole thread for you and even played along on this church and state thing and am more than willing to continue. But you have to do your part.

[sspadowsky]

Raygun, how does the First Amendment "directly oppose" the separation of church and state?
________
How to use magic flight launch box

[Ronnie Raygun]

Because it's non of the gov't business as the 1st amendment points out.

Can you read, Genius?

[sspadowsky]

Are you willfully fucking stupid, or can you just not help it?

If the government cannot make any law respecting religion, hten, by definition, the government (or "state") is separated from all religious institutions (collectively referred to as "the church").

So, again, how does the First Amendment "directly oppose" separation of church and state?
________
SUZUKI F50

[Bennett]

If it's so easy for you to see that the gov't should stay out of religion, why can't you see that the educational system should stay out of it as well? Pray to yourself, on your own time, there's no need to make a spectacle out of it.

[Protoclown]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Congratulations. Your last post was chock full of Christian Virtue. It contained gloating and lies, two things Jesus loved.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"If it's so easy for you to see that the gov't should stay out of religion, why can't you see that the educational system should stay out of it as well? Pray to yourself, on your own time, there's no need to make a spectacle out of it." - Bennett

Enlighten me? Where does it say that in the Constitution?

"If the government cannot make any law respecting religion, hten, by definition, the government (or "state") is separated from all religious institutions (collectively referred to as "the church")." - Spad

That's what I've BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG YOU DOLT!

....but it hasn't stopped people like you from taking those very words and using them to do just the opposite!!

[sspadowsky]

You still haven't answered my question, dumbass. How does the First Amendment "directly oppose" the separation of church and state?
________
Gay Hardcore

[Bennett]

the public education system is a division of the "GOVERNMENT" or "STATE" unless you are at a private school that's membership depends on a certain religion, Then why can't you see why the two should be separate?

Is my question clearer now?

[Ronnie Raygun]

Because it opposes the first amendment!!!!

Read the 1st and tell me where it says teachers can't pray with their students in school.

[Bennett]

Where does it say that a teacher should have the right to exert religious influence over her students? Would you be singing the same tune if an elementary school teacher started each day off telling the children about all the reasons that God doesn't exist? Or what about if the teacher was Muslim?

[Baalzamon]

Read the 1st and tell me where it says teachers can't pray with their students in school.

public school teachers are employees of, and thus, representatives of the state.

Private school teachers are not.

A teacher in a public school should not lead a prayer, because in doing so they are using their state funded position to endorse a religion, in a state building and forum. This implies that the government is favouring that religion specifically, which is something that the state should not do.

A private school teach however is not an employee of the state, and the institution they work for is not connected to the state. They and the school they work in are thus free to teach any religion they wish, as the parents of those children have chosen to place their children in that particular school, often for the reason of the particular religion the school, endorses.

I think I should say however, that a public school teacher should be free to establish a prayer service for those students that want it. This should take place outside of class time only. it should not cut into regular class time, and it should be done in what is effectively the teachers "off duty time". That teacher can stay late and do this unpaid, or sacrifice their lunch break for it.

None of this "anyone who doesnt want to participate can go sit in the corner and face the wall untill we are done" crap.

Anyone who wants to participate can stay inside at recess or come after school.

I remember my school did this back in elementary, and those students who wanted to be involved actually left the room to go elsewhere. It worked out quite well. There was absolutely no interference to everyone elses time and it didnt bother anyone who was not interested or of different beleifs.

[punkgrrrlie10]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Let's break down the first amendment kid (Raygun) into elements, shall we?

1. Congress shall make no law - that means no state/federal action imposing an affirmative duty on anyone, or prohibiting something as criminal.

2. respecting the establishment of religion - that means supporting religion

3. or prohibiting the free exercise thereof - prohibiting someone from practicing their religion

4. or abriding the freedom of speech - prohibiting someone from speaking

5. or of the press - prohibiting someone from publishing thier speech.

6. or the right of people to peaceably assemble - hanging w/the homies but not buggin' anyone.

7. and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances - you are allowed to write letters and enact legislation to solve your problems w/the government

Summary: the gov't can't prohibit you or make you practice religion. So go practice, but you can't force anyone else to join you by state action - state action would be schools, teachers, politicians, and the anyone else on income paid through taxes.

[Carnivore]

Once again, dumbass is breaking things down into black and white. There's a difference between a teacher giving students the option of praying and a teacher leading kids in prayer on a daily basis. If the kids want to go to a prayer club after school and pray with a teacher, that's fine. Having a Christian prayer daily at the start of homeroom is very different. The kids don't absolutely have to participate, but there is pressure to do so. The majority is Christian. Sitting down and not praying could invite ridicule, especially in the backwards-ass Bible Belt. Do you see the line being crossed in that case? Do you see the difference between allowing people to pray and endorsing a religion?


"No, I don't because I'm a complete imbecile!"

[mburbank]

Kudos to our I-mockery lawyer, punk girlie.

Kudos also to Bennet. think you should answer that one, becuase it will force you to actually confront some of the gray areas in your questions to me which you've thuis far refused to recognize.

What if the teacher wanted to lead a little "Ala Ahkbar"? Would that be all right with you? Suppose none of the students were Muslim? Still alright? Okay, how about say, 1/5 of the Students? Okay, %50 Muslim classroom, it's okay now, right? If an irate parent killed the teacher, would you allow prosecution of the murder as a hate crime?

[kellychaos]

I can see Ronnie's lips move when he reads the Constitution ... teehee!

[Protoclown]

As a representative of I-Mockery, I would like to lead everyone who has posted in this thread in a prayer.


ALL HAIL LORD SATAN OUR DARK AND EVIL MASTER, MAY PEACE COME TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND MAY GEORGE BUSH AND HIS ILK BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, AND LET US DROWN BABIES IN GOATS' BLOOD AND SPANK THEM IN THE FACE WITH BIBLES. FOREVER AND EVER AMEN.

I would like to thank everyone in this thread, particularly RONNIE RAYGUN, for participating unwillingly in this prayer.

Have a nice day!