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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 05:17 PM        Commentary on "liberation"
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_ar...0&sectionID=15

Liberation or Libation?
Media Images, State Propaganda and 'Happy Iraqis'

by Tim Wise; April 04, 2003

I figured it would happen sooner or later.

Having written several columns questioning the notion that the current war in Iraq is about "liberation" of that nation's people, it was only a matter of time before I received an email like the one this morning.

"Well smartass," it began, indicating the level of discourse so common among some who support this war. "I guess you and all your leftist buddies were wrong. Picture after picture is coming out of Iraq showing how happy the people are to be freed by our soldiers. They are giving the 'thumbs up' sign, even waving small American flags, smiling and cheering. If it were up to people like you, they would have to suffer for God knows how long under Saddam."

Well, actually, if it were up to people "like me," the United States would never have armed and supported Saddam in the first place.

If it were up to "people like me," the CIA wouldn't have backed Saddam beginning in the 1960's, encouraging him and the Ba'ath Party to assassinate the Iraqi President and usher in three decades of vicious rule.

If it were up to "people like me," the U.S. would never have approved, from 1985-1990, some 750 export licenses worth 1.5 billion dollars to companies seeking to sell biological and chemical agents and equipment with military application to Iraq.

But of course, it wasn't up to people like me. It was up to people like George Bush the First, and Donald Rumsfeld in his previous incarnation as an apologist for Saddam and his penchant for gassing other brown-skinned folks.

But putting all that aside, since history rarely means much to those like my email detractor, whose historical memory has been programmed in this culture to extend no further back than last night's eleven o'clock news, let us return to the gist of his charge, that we are creating happy Iraqis in the wake of our march to Baghdad.

First, let us grant for the sake of argument that there will be many Iraqis glad to see Saddam go. Of course this is true. Indeed, perhaps the vast majority will feel this way. Why wouldn't they? He has been a despotic and cruel tyrant, and was such during the entire time that we stood by him--a small detail about which the rest of the Muslim world is aware, despite the fact that most Americans apparently aren't.

So of course many Iraqis will be glad to have this regime gone, but that doesn't mean that they will be glad about the way it is being done, or what may come after. This is especially true if it involves a long U.S. occupation, the installation of an unpopular puppet government, and the ultimate abandoning of the nation, as we have already done in Afghanistan, where the White House proposes to spend zero dollars this year on rebuilding the infrastructure that we have helped destroy since October 2001.

Secondly, let us reflect for a minute on the accuracy of the photos in which my new pen pal seems to place so much stock. After all, with journalists heavily controlled by the military as per the "embedding" concept, and with stories and photos being regularly vetted first by CentCom before they are allowed to be seen, does it really surprise anyone that we wouldn't be seeing photos of angry Iraqis?

And just where does my friend think those Iraqis got American flags anyway? I mean, does anyone really believe that such flags were a briskly selling item in pre-invasion Iraq, or is it more likely that they have been given those items by American troops, who then jumped back so the photographers could get a better shot?

The fact is, people tend to like cameras, especially when they are poor and haven't seen many before. Go to the poorest, most oppressed places on Earth and film the inhabitants or take their picture, and you will find them smiling. It's second nature, not joy at being liberated. I have a picture of my family from the 1850's and one of their slaves is smiling too. So what? Are we to then assume that he was enjoying his bondage? (And as a side note, how much more of a smile might he have had if his father had slit the throats of my entire clan as they slept? Just a thought, and one which American "liberators" might wish to consider.)

It was just a week ago that reporters were noting the smiling faces of Iraqi youth as "coalition" forces rolled by, only to note that as soon as the troops were out of sight, they would curse their presence and pledge allegiance to Saddam, even when there were no Ba'ath officials around to enforce such loyalty.

And in my morning newspaper today, the deception about Iraqi attitudes was blatant. On page one, there was a heart-warming photo of crowds in Najaf greeting an American solider, and beneath the picture an article entitled "Cheers from Iraqis greet U.S." Yet on page six, in an article with the innocuous title, "Baghdad residents torn with emotion," one finds one after another comment by Iraqis condemning the war on their nation, and the Hussein regime, such as "What does Bush want from us? Saddam is our choice, and even if we have to survive just on bread, we still want him."

Or alternately, "of course people are sad. They are targeting everything. Not just government buildings."

Or, "Even if our President is the biggest tyrant in the world as they say, we would not want to replace him."

Not to say that these voices are necessarily representative of Iraqi opinion either, but surely they give the lie to the one-dimensional propaganda about happy Iraqis and their love for our G.I.'s Joe.

Perhaps most importantly, if war supporters are now going to justify this invasion on the grounds of liberating the Iraqis--having apparently given up the weapons of mass destruction argument since none have been found or used by Iraq in this war--then one wonders why limit the rationale to this one nation?

If the U.S. is obligated to liberate the oppressed by force, there is surely no reason to stop with Iraq. Assuming that oppressed peoples are equal wherever they may be, then we should surely seek to overthrow the governments of Saudi Arabia (whose human rights record is every bit as bad as Saddam's), Turkey (whose treatment of the Kurds has been considerably worse than Saddam's), Columbia (whose scorched earth tactics and death squads are perhaps unparalleled right now anywhere on Earth), and Israel, whose treatment of Palestinians continues to represent a form of not-so-subtle ethnic cleansing.

But of course we won't invade any of those places to free the persons oppressed by the respective governments, and the reason is obvious: because we are allied with those nations, and implicated in the oppression of the peoples mentioned. They can torture, imprison, rape, behead in public, crush with tanks, and otherwise slaughter as many of these as they choose and nothing will happen to them. Because we are not about liberation. It is simply an excuse we use to help us sleep better at night, and because we think the people of the world are so stupid as to actually believe it.

Truth be told it takes a profound contempt for Iraqis to believe that they will, by and large view us as liberators. It takes a fundamental belief in the intellectual inferiority and simple-mindedness of such folks to expect them to believe this kind of thing.

They know, after all, that we have been behind the dictator we now seek to depose. They know that without U.S. support Saddam could never have taken power, retained power, or tortured and killed the tens of thousands that he's killed. Likewise, they know that without U.S.-sanctions hundreds of thousands of their fellow citizens would still be alive as well.

And let us not forget that even with the support of the Iraqi people, U.S. actions have planted the seeds of further terrorism, as millions throughout the Middle East seek revenge for what they perceive as an American power grab and anti-Arab, anti-Muslim crusade.

After all, we thought all was well after our "liberation" of Kuwait in 1991, too. Kuwaitis were certainly happy, I suppose. But a certain Saudi national was not. He saw the stationing of U.S troops in his nation as an affront to his religion; an unholy incursion onto Muslim land. He also saw the human costs of the war that "liberated" Kuwait as an unacceptable massacre, and the sanctions that came after it as de facto genocide. And at least nineteen others agreed with him.

Such is the inertia created by this kind of liberation.

Sleep well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Wise is a writer, activist and father. He can be reached at timjwise@msn.com

For more of Tim's writings on Iraq go to http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Iraq/tim_wise.htm
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 06:15 PM       
ha ha, FUCK the Iraqis! This war is so multi-purpose, one of the objectives is bound to get achieved, and then history can be written around that to make it all seem like a big success. Let me see if I can put them all down.

-liberating the Iraqis
-removing Saddam Hussein and his regime
-protecting the US from terrorists
-upholding UN resolutions
-finding and confisquating (and destroying) weapons of mass destruction
-sending a message to other Middle Eastern countries
-establishing a democracy in the Middle East that will hopefully spread
-bombing brownies
-proving George Bush has the bigger cock
-securing the next elections

That's probably not all of them, but damned if not at least one of them is going to work out, right?
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 06:47 PM       
Dont forget, dubya needs to take vengece on the man who tried to kill his daddy
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 07:04 PM       
And the american public needs to strike out in retaliation for 9/11

After all afganistan was too weak, so it doesnt count. And Iraq is proving to be dissapointingly easy as well.

Its just not very satisfying, and it looks like after Iraq folds and the US abandons it, it'll be on to a more entertaining country that will put up a fight.

Victory is after all, much more satisfying when the enemy has a chance in hell of fighting back effectively, at least for the people watching at home anyway. And think of the calibur of american war Heros that would come from a conflict with a powerfull nation!

the american people demand that a mighty and worthy enemy be defeated!!
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 09:21 PM       
it is very sad that our soldiers have been put in a situation that defines them as corporate mercenaries.

bush is a traitor to america
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 09:35 PM       
and you are the definition of genetic putrescence.
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 09:57 PM       
What a bunch of fucking stupidity.

The US didn't give birth to Saddam or the Baathist party (who had previously been in power ). Doesn't the idea that we once suported them give us that much more reason to be concerned by the misuse of that power????

As for Afghanistan.... if we stay in there, we're Imperialists...if we walk, then we're negligent....what do you want? I don't even think Afghanistan was a crucial target.... but all this "oh no we're going to destabalize the Middle East" stuff is bullshit.
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 10:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
The US didn't give birth to Saddam or the Baathist party (who had previously been in power ).
This isn't what he said.

Quote:
Doesn't the idea that we once suported them give us that much more reason to be concerned by the misuse of that power????
Didn't our previous action in Iran justify doing away with the Ayatollah at whatever the cost? Didn't fighting off the Soviets justify financing the Mujihadeen, etc. ???


Quote:
As for Afghanistan.... if we stay in there, we're Imperialists...if we walk, then we're negligent....what do you want?
This is a very fair point, however, Thomas Friedman's saying of "if you break it, it's yours" rings true, in my opinion. It isn't a matter of "if we do this, if we do that," because we chose a course of action, it was done, fin. America is already receiving criticism for doing a half-assed job in Afghanistan, so why no help more, get criticised, but perhaps prevent the world from breading more ignorance, hate, and terrorism? That to me seems like a more viable option than worrying about some harsh words.

Quote:
I don't even think Afghanistan was a crucial target.... but all this "oh no we're going to destabalize the Middle East" stuff is bullshit.
How so? It seems that many Arabs, despite hating Hussein, are in fact returning to Iraq to defend her. Protests roar on ever day. Is this indicative of every Arab in the entire middle east? I doubt it. But to assume that this war isn't going to ruffle feathers and foster resentment is a bit naive, IMO.
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Old Apr 4th, 2003, 10:55 PM       
You're distorting my point. Saying we put Saddam in power is STUPID. It ignores the previous influence in the region of the Baathist, or Saddam...before we got involved....and it shifts all the blame on us regardless. That's juvenile finger pointing. Saddam was going to happen with or without our assistance....the Baathists weren't going away.

Look that region is fucked...it's a human rights nightmare... I'd love to see uprisings overthrow those evil regimes...but it's not happening.... and I'm not denying we have personal gains by being involved, and yes there are very corrupt activities going on... but honestly the Middle East ISN'T stable at all, and it hasn't been stable for decades...and removing Saddam and a host of other evil regimes will improve the climate between nations there, and the quality of life WILL improve for Iraqi citizens. What serious good does Saddam do for his people or the region? Besides picking up their garbage on time. Think of how many human rights catastrophes we've sat back and allowed to happen, and how many times we've wished our country had stepped in somehow because simply put -- we have the resources to do it. If the Bush family weren't involved...if the oil factor wasn't a consideration... if Imperialist guilt was never worth mentioning...then really our perception would be rather different now wouldn't it?

I think we have more of a resonsibility to rebuild and restructure Iraq then we do Afghanistan. Turning our back now after years of sanctions, and bombing would just be irresponsible. What's happened to Baghdad is a shame...and it needs to change... and while this might not be the ideal way for it to happen, it's just stupid to ignore the merit in removing Saddam. Liberation or not.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 10:58 AM       
I think you raise some very good points, Abcd, but I have to disagree with a number of them. Previous Ba'ath influence aside, Hussein's coming to power was heavily aided by our government in terms of money, weapons, and training. That's a pretty clear-cut case of being an accessory.

Quote:
If the Bush family weren't involved...if the oil factor wasn't a consideration... if Imperialist guilt was never worth mentioning...then really our perception would be rather different now wouldn't it?
All of these "Ifs" are irrelevant. This is a situation where the Bushes are involved, oil is a factor, and imperialist guilt is most definitely worth mentioning. If it were somebody else, with an entirely different set of circumstances, of course our perceptions would be different.

Quote:
but honestly the Middle East ISN'T stable at all, and it hasn't been stable for decades...and removing Saddam and a host of other evil regimes will improve the climate between nations there, and the quality of life WILL improve for Iraqi citizens.
I hope you're right. I most sincerely do. But history doesn't make a strong case for it. Furthermore, even if every country in the Middle East dislikes Saddam, everything I see, hear, and read, seems to indicate that most of the region still regards us as highly suspicious. They still see our 'liberation' of Iraq as an imposition of Western influence by way of setting up a democratic government modeled after ours. With our influence will come elements of our culture, which many followers of Islam disapprove of. Even if it turns out to be good for Iraq in our eyes, you have to take into account how it plays to the audience of Middle Eastern countries. It's sort of like booking George Carlin to speak at a Southern Baptists convention, you know?

Quote:
I think we have more of a resonsibility to rebuild and restructure Iraq then we do Afghanistan.
This one I disagree with vehemently. We've bombed the shit out of both of them and killed a lot of innocent people. Afghanistan was already in shambles from two decades of battle. Their economy has nothing but the opium trade. Christ, at least Iraq has oil. Afghanistan needs, and deserves, at minimum, equal assistance in reconstruction. But, my guess is we'll keep just enough troops over there to protect the pipeline we're building, and let the chaos continue.

There's something else I was wondering about..... This alleged threat Hussein poses. We know damn well he can't attack us directly. "But he could attack his neighbors," I've heard some say. Well, how come we haven't heard anything in the news along the lines of "Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, and Iran are openly supporting US military action out of fear that Iraq poses a clear and direct threat to their safety"? As we all know, the Bush Family Show pulled out every conceivable angle to support their case for war, and I never heard anyhting like that on the news. And if that happened, I'd sure like to know how the hell I missed it.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 12:18 PM       
Okay look, it's not an either or situation. It's no a popularity contest. Afghanistan certainly was worse off before our bombing then Iraq, but you could also say that Iraq waas functioning in some form before we got to it. Then again you could also say that about Rwanda, or Bosnia too. I think it's becoming pretty obvious that our hatred for Bush has clouded the judgement of even our most outspoken humanitarians. It's embaressing. You see, even if Bush pops up and makes his dog the president of Iraq, turns the place intoa big golf range, and pastes his face all over Baghdad... if it means getting Saddam out of there, then their lives will improve. I'm being sarcastic of course...I'm just saying that even at it's worst... if the US begins to "occupy" Iraq, life will improve for the citizens of Iraq. It's not wishful thinking if you know what life there has been like. As for afghanistan? You can't compare the two... like you said, even the drug trade wasn't working as an economy... the place was nearly rubble before we got there. I know of a 250 bed hostpital with 85 female doctors that was set to open last month. I know about 75,000 girls allowed to go to school now. That is an improvement isn't it? All of the "ifs" only matter if you hate our government more then you hate the benefits of fair human rights. Now you can say "oh Bush is taking OUR human rights, grumble grumble" or "he's not doing it for human rights" but that's again...an American sitting cush and putting their perspective, and lifestyle expectations on things.

"There's something else I was wondering about..... This alleged threat Hussein poses. We know damn well he can't attack us directly. "But he could attack his neighbors," I've heard some say. Well, how come we haven't heard anything in the news along the lines of "Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, and Iran are openly supporting US military action out of fear that Iraq poses a clear and direct threat to their safety"? As we all know, the Bush Family Show pulled out every conceivable angle to support their case for war, and I never heard anyhting like that on the news. And if that happened, I'd sure like to know how the hell I missed it."

Well they're not going to openly support it for several reasons.

1) public opinion within the Arab League itself.
2) Nobody wants to be seen cohorting with the Bush's
3) Let the US do their dirty work. All the nations you mentioned have either been at threat with Saddam, or been at war with him 4) These same nations double deal. They all have secret trade agreements with Saddam AND Israel or the US
5) Saudi, and Syria both have a lot to hide, and appreciate the divergence. Jordan and Iran have flip flopped on their stance and worry more about inner turmoil within their own borders. "Jordan first" is the new rally cry. Yet we have troops stationed there.
6) Even if they support the removal of Saddam, why would they support a democracy in the center of the region? It's the totalitarian governments worrying this will shake up the whole area. Gee, why? Was Saddam really a lightening rod of stability in the Middle East?
7) Aside from Iran, and Syria, most every nation in the area has assisted the Allies in some form. Iran and Syria were on our axis of evil right?
8) When Iraq falls, there is talk of giving some of the rebuild contracts to Jordan and Israel. That's right. Jews in Iraq. Gasp. That would put Americans, and Israelies on both sides of the Jordanian, Syrian borders, and open up new borders where Jews could cohabitate. They're not exactly fond of a possible Kurdistan either.
9) Saddam took the blame for a lot. He was a good cover. While Saudi's were involved with Bin Laden, and Hamas actions , we focused on Saddam. It forces them to act responsibly or hide it better. In the case of Saddam, he had his hands in every cookie jar. Where's the "poetry of suicide bombing" involved in protecting Sadddam? That's not about land or desperation, that's just about money and manipulation inspiring some poor kids to kill themselves. They are a threat to the whole world, because you can suicide bomb anywhere. The other nations have never made threats to attack the US on our own soil, even if due to 9/11 some of them actually already have.
10) The US will be less dependant on relations with those states. Again, not because of oil, but because of tactical reasons. You can attack the US through our interests, or our allies. You can attack democracy as well, and we do get rather precious about our little democracy concept and how it fights "evil". Look at the cold war for examples. It means we can remove our base from Saudi...we no longer have to pretend Syria belongs on the UN security council... Jordan can't be wishy washy on it's stance....and Iran needs to find a stable government that represents it's own changing progressive population.....we no longer have to sit on pins and needles treating the area like it's a powder keg. Really Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi are FAR more dangerous then Iraq, but it's an emporor has no clothes situation. How else did Israel fight off half the Arab world at once? Not through brute strength.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 02:47 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
You're distorting my point. Saying we put Saddam in power is STUPID. It ignores the previous influence in the region of the Baathist, or Saddam...before we got involved....and it shifts all the blame on us regardless. That's juvenile finger pointing. Saddam was going to happen with or without our assistance....the Baathists weren't going away.
But he wasn't commenting on the power struggle in Iraq, he was addressing internal criticismsin the United States. People say "people like you would allow Iraq to suffer under Saddam," etc., you read the article. He isn't saying point the finger at us we created a despot, however it can't hurt that we turned a blind eye to his activities until 1990, right? Kid and the cookie jar?

Quote:
Look that region is fucked...it's a human rights nightmare... I'd love to see uprisings overthrow those evil regimes...but it's not happening....
The hope in some democratic libertarian rounding up a army and disposing of the waste is silly, I agree. But that's why I feel the hope in "lets allow the U.S. to come and free us" argument is dangerous. It makes these nations beholden to us for a LONG time, and if they step out of line, who knows.

I think there's a lot we could be doing there, and NOT doing there. One would be to stop pretending there's "good" oppressive regimes, and "bad" oppressive regimes. If our interest is humanitarian, we need to stoptalking to these figure heads in Syria, Qatar, S.A., and Jordan like they represent their people. They don't.

Israel is often cited as a glowing success in that region, but I feel that Iran stands out as a HUGE statement of what can happen if a REALLY fucked up country is allowed to liberalize and open its markets up a bit. That's why I strongly opposed the sanctions in Iraq, and that's why I oppose using bombs to fix these problems.

Quote:
but honestly the Middle East ISN'T stable at all, and it hasn't been stable for decades...and removing Saddam and a host of other evil regimes will improve the climate between nations there,
The climate between whom, the .0000001% of these nations that the heads of state represent? Maybe this will make the King of Jordan happier, but you can clearly tell me, will this/is this making your average Jordanian happier???

Quote:
and the quality of life WILL improve for Iraqi citizens. What serious good does Saddam do for his people or the region?
Well, you'll never allow this argument to occur, so I won't go there, but I do agree that no Saddam is better than with Saddam. However, I feel we need to look at this in a broader context. Do we mean to allow Iraq to run democratically, elect their own leaders? What are the chances that someone from the Islamic majority might be elected there? Don't you agree that there's a good chance the next leader of Iraq will be a West hating extremist? Saddam was a poor muslim at best, but what if an Osama type gets elected? Do we negate the results? Is Iraq truly free then? What hapens then? More terrorism? More "liberations"???

Quote:
Think of how many human rights catastrophes we've sat back and allowed to happen, and how many times we've wished our country had stepped in somehow because simply put -- we have the resources to do it.If the Bush family weren't involved...if the oil factor wasn't a consideration... if Imperialist guilt was never worth mentioning...then really our perception would be rather different now wouldn't it?
Don't you think if these things were a factor in Rwanda that there'd be a lot more Tutsis alive today? We can't call it humanitarianism and "liberation" if it only extends as far as our own self-interest, period. That was the crux of the commentary, too.

Quote:
I think we have more of a resonsibility to rebuild and restructure Iraq then we do Afghanistan. Turning our back now after years of sanctions, and bombing would just be irresponsible. What's happened to Baghdad is a shame...and it needs to change... and while this might not be the ideal way for it to happen, it's just stupid to ignore the merit in removing Saddam. Liberation or not.
Ends can't always justify the means, because, as I've said, it's that very same logic that has in the past allowed the tolerance of Saddam, allowed the financing of the "Afghan" revolutionaries, etc.

Quote:
It's no a popularity contest. Afghanistan certainly was worse off before our bombing then Iraq, but you could also say that Iraq waas functioning in some form before we got to it. Then again you could also say that about Rwanda, or Bosnia too. I think it's becoming pretty obvious that our hatred for Bush has clouded the judgement of even our most outspoken humanitarians. It's embaressing.
But the game doesn't end after you blow up the place and leave. We can't say "Afghanistan is a better place" now, we need to be able to say Afghanistan will be better off TEN years from now, or 20. The areas we have provided aid and infrastructure to issmall, and the other regions have become destabilized by drug runners and war lords. UN aid workers get shot at. This is not a good thing, and although I do believe we will do a MUCH better job in Iraq, if for nothing other than good p.r., I however fear that we may have done more harm than good to the entire Middle East.

Quote:
You see, even if Bush pops up and makes his dog the president of Iraq, turns the place intoa big golf range, and pastes his face all over Baghdad... if it means getting Saddam out of there, then their lives will improve. I'm being sarcastic of course...I'm just saying that even at it's worst... if the US begins to "occupy" Iraq, life will improve for the citizens of Iraq. It's not wishful thinking if you know what life there has been like.
Life may take an immediate spike, but if they realize that their "liberation" means being the little brother of America, I think that might change.

And I pose the same questions. Will we allow free, democratic elections? What if they elect a Muslim? It certainly wouldn't be odd for a country just "liberated" by America to hold negative feelings towards us, look at Kuwait.

Quote:
As for afghanistan? You can't compare the two... like you said, even the drug trade wasn't working as an economy... the place was nearly rubble before we got there. I know of a 250 bed hostpital with 85 female doctors that was set to open last month. I know about 75,000 girls allowed to go to school now. That is an improvement isn't it? All of the "ifs" only matter if you hate our government more then you hate the benefits of fair human rights. Now you can say "oh Bush is taking OUR human rights, grumble grumble" or "he's not doing it for human rights" but that's again...an American sitting cush and putting their perspective, and lifestyle expectations on things.
I'd be willing to bet that most Afghans are still living pretty poorly, and in fairly dangerous conditions, by ANYONE'S lifestyle expectations. If we allow this to remain unchanged, and if we likewise allow this to happen in Iraq (we won't, but for sake of argument), then no, neither of these countries are better off in the long run, in my mind.

Quote:
7) Aside from Iran, and Syria, most every nation in the area has assisted the Allies in some form. Iran and Syria were on our axis of evil right?
Not Syria, but Sharon added them to it for us.

These same countries that "support" American invasion in some way also have their own citizens going into Iraq to fight the "American Devil." It's not like these countries put up a referendum, or allowed their citizens a ballot initiative to vote on whether or not to support an American invasion of Iraq. I wonder why? This is why I feel Iraq IS a destabilizing issue, because if people in the M.E. will go as far to fight for SADDAM HUSSEIN, what will happen when/if we come knocking on Syria's door? Or even Saudi Arabia's door for that matter?

Quote:
In the case of Saddam, he had his hands in every cookie jar. Where's the "poetry of suicide bombing" involved in protecting Sadddam? That's not about land or desperation, that's just about money and manipulation inspiring some poor kids to kill themselves. They are a threat to the whole world, because you can suicide bomb anywhere.
You don't see this activity increasing with an unrest and unhappiness over our actions in Iraq?
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 02:57 PM       
I would like some evidence of all the cities we have turned to ash and the hunders of thousands of civilians we have murdered in Iraq and Afganistan, please.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 02:59 PM       
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
I would like some evidence of all the cities we have turned to ash and the hunders of thousands of civilians we have murdered in Iraq and Afganistan, please.
What in God's name are you responding to? Why'd you have to go and ruin a perfectly good thread?
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 03:02 PM       
I am responding to a claim that someone made that we have slaughtered all these Iraqi and Afgahnistani people. I would just like the numbers, please.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 03:07 PM       
Get over yourself. Sspad said we have killed lots of innocent people, which we have done, and will probably continue to do. This tends to happen in war, wouldn't you agree? He never put a number on it, why are you? Would 1,000 dead Iraqi children not be worthy of mention? Inhuman twit.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 03:29 PM       
I'm inhuman for wanting the facts that support an outlandish claim?
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 03:41 PM       
In what way is it outlandish? Have many innocent civilians NOT died? Has our government not admitted as much? Are they lying to us to seem extra rotten, Vince?

You are inhuman because if even 2,000 civilians died, it wouldn't classify as "lots" to you.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 03:45 PM       
Just to draw a comparison here, a not too shabby amount of landmines was dropped in Afghanistan. Iraq has been bombed, but as far as I know mines have not been put to use there yet. For all intents and purposes, Afghanistan has a much longer road towards decent living conditions to go than Iraq (ever?) will, so I'd say the work has to start there fast and maybe even first.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 04:48 PM       
Right, because America means sooo much to the Arabic world. As if the Arab world couldn't stop thinking about those darn Turks and Brits till we came along.

Life in Afghanistan was worse to start with. Of course it's still worse then Iraq. At least we can point towards our own bombs for Iraq's destruction and take responsibility in rebuilding it. A rebuild of Afghanistan would be to rebuild the destruction of wars that started before the United States even came to town.

We didn't liberate Kuwait to replace their government. It's no comparison...and neither is half the shit you cited.

As for Syria - Bush said "Â*A terrorist underworld -- including groups like Hamas, HEZBOLLAH, Islamic Jihad, Jaish-i-Mohammed -- operates in remote jungles and deserts, and hides in the centers of large cities.". ...goes on to name axis of evil......."States like these, AND THEIR TERRORIST ALLIES, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world."

I'm sorry you're so confused.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 05:06 PM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Right, because America means sooo much to the Arabic world. As if the Arab world couldn't stop thinking about those darn Turks and Brits till we came along.
What the hell are you talking about? Could you be more specific?

Quote:
Life in Afghanistan was worse to start with. Of course it's still worse then Iraq. At least we can point towards our own bombs for Iraq's destruction and take responsibility in rebuilding it. A rebuild of Afghanistan would be to rebuild the destruction of wars that started before the United States even came to town.
We had NO part in any of those previous wars? What did we do in Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled back? Did we stay there to support the "Afghan liberators," or did we just pull out and leave a bunch of warlords with Russian weapons to play with...?

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We didn't liberate Kuwait to replace their government. It's no comparison
How so? We did better, we prevented them from being overrun by a despoting madman, the "Butcher of Baghdad," you don't find this to be a relevant comparison? Can you elaborate, or would you rather just be a condescending shithead?


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...and neither is half the shit you cited.
You sure showed me.

Quote:
As for Syria - Bush said "Â*A terrorist underworld -- including groups like Hamas, HEZBOLLAH, Islamic Jihad, Jaish-i-Mohammed -- operates in remote jungles and deserts, and hides in the centers of large cities.". ...goes on to name axis of evil......."States like these, AND THEIR TERRORIST ALLIES, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world."
Look, the axis was Iran, N. Korea, and Iraq. This is such common knowledge, I'm not even going to further the debate, it has very little to do with what we were discussing.

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I'm sorry you're so confused.
And I'm sorry you can't manage to get that stick out of your ass. Look, I'm not trying to play a one-up game here, I was trying to hold a real conversation. I was being genuine. If I'm so wrong on the points I've made, then show me. If you can't do that, or are unable to do that, then please, shut the hell up.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 05:35 PM       
"We had NO part in any of those previous wars?"

I realize this question is facetious, but I'm assuming you (abcdxxxx) either haven't read what I posted in the "Infringing on rights" column, or dismissed it as conspiratorial tripe. In either case, I stand by it so my views on what we're doing in the middle east is a little different. These conflicts which we have been dealing with for the past decade are the result of the proxy soldiers and causes we created through-out the seventies and eighties. Kevin is right in that our foreign policy agenda is so short sighted it has fatal consquences for us later on down the line. I don't we can honestly say life in Afghanistan was worse before our interference (cold war actions, that is), though perhaps it might have become worse without it.

"Look, the axis was Iran, N. Korea, and Iraq. This is such common knowledge, I'm not even going to further the debate, it has very little to do with what we were discussing. "

Sure, they were the three countries defined as the Axis of Evil, but our tanks are being hit with Russian munitions which have, reportedly, been linked back to sales from Russia to Syria. I would think that Sharon was right in linking them to the Axis and therefore making them a potential enemy.

"I am responding to a claim that someone made that we have slaughtered all these Iraqi and Afgahnistani people. I would just like the numbers, please."

Here you go asshole. Sspad is totally justified in his assertion.
http://www.alliancesouthasia.org/index.cfm?sectionID=11

I had something else to add, but it slipped my mind, so I'll leave things as they are.
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Old Apr 5th, 2003, 05:42 PM       
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Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Sure, they were the three countries defined as the Axis of Evil, but our tanks are being hit with Russian munitions which have, reportedly, been linked back to sales from Russia to Syria. I would think that Sharon was right in linking them to the Axis and therefore making them a potential enemy.
Oh, I agree that there was more implied, but for the sake of the "axis" catch phrase that has become so popular, he was refering to three. The fact that this semantical debate was even brought up is silly....
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Old Apr 7th, 2003, 01:45 PM       
Look you're spinning your wheels.

Both the Turks and the Brits collonized nearly all Muslim land at some point...and yet these nations did not suffer from various grudges and vendettas in the post occupation years. There is no precedent for this festering resentment built on such Imperiliast actions. Any disdain for America is based around a lack of will to coexist, and this is a problem even within Muslim on Muslim relations. I doubt Iraq is ready for Democracy, but it's rather stupid to pretend there's some national integrity to uphold here. We're talking about a nation that self ethnic cleansed itself. The Brits were just as responsible for putting the Baathist party, and eventually Saddam, in power as we were. Our inside deals, and through the back door involvement in that regions politics? That's your own guilt as an American. You're talking about an "Arab street" or whatever they call it that functions without a free press. The intellectual free thought amongst the Arab world happens in coffee houses, but it's not like common knowledge in a world where propaganda, and corrupted reality are regularly intermixed. Mein Kamp is the best seller out there, not some translated copy of a Noam Chomskey book. So should America take some responsibility? Yes, and that's why we shouldn't turn a blind eye to someone like Saddam. If anything, the idea that we as a country often put bad people in power, is more of a pro-war argument to me. Will we fuck up again? Yeah, probably....but I'm hopeful we can at least eliminate the constant human rights abuses in the process. In other words, put some fucked up guy in power to replace Saddam, and I'm at least happy we're removing the torture chambers, etc. That's my point here.

As for Syria... semantics aside, I suggest you go back and read Bush's words rather then react to the spin that came after. Unless the text I read was edited, he never mentions a specific number of "axis" nations...he mentions a few by name, and threatens their allies as well. I think we agree that the "axis" label is stupid as fuck... but if he isn't talking about Syria then who is he talking about? Anyone else housing those exact terrorist groups he named? Anyone else have explicit relations with N. Korea, Iran, and Iraq too? On the surface, you're right, Syria were not named.... but it was obvious who he meant.
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