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  #51  
Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 10:34 AM       
It funny how Carnivore calls me names and at the same time posts words that support my claim.

Brilliant!!
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  #52  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 10:37 AM       
Quote:
Amendment I

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "
Let's examine this for a bit, since it brings up another point:

Congress can not respect an establishment of religion. That means that if the president decided that this country was Evangelical Christian, that is in violation of our Bill of Rights. NOW, if the president wants to speak to spiritual advisers, reads a religious text and prays to decide what he should do, and says that God will help guide him, that is not establishing a religion. That is a man going with what he believes in, which is a right that is God-given and granted by the Constution, if you go by our way of govt.

But another thing that really intrigues me is when these protestors say that we have a right to protests, that they are right, they do, as long as its PEACEFULLY. Once they start infringing on MY rights and the rights of others, like a few are doing now, that is the time for the police to break out the collapsable riot batons.
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  #53  
sspadowsky sspadowsky is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 10:38 AM       
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Forget it....I'll spare you the hardship.
Coward. You know you are dead wrong, and you can't bring yourself to admit it.

The government doesn't get involved if a kid wants to pray. They would get involved if a teacher tried to lead a lead a class in prayer, or if someone tried to force a group into some sort of religious exercise. Individual freedoms are respected. If a guy wants to say grace before he eats his school luch, that's entirely his business.
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  #54  
Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 10:50 AM       
"Coward. You know you are dead wrong, and you can't bring yourself to admit it."

Then why Can't you prove your point.

"The government doesn't get involved if a kid wants to pray."

Not true. There are many cases where kids are not allowed to pray in school.

"They would get involved if a teacher tried to lead a lead a class in prayer,"

What does that have to do with CONGRESS passing a law that respects religion?......Genius...
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  #55  
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 10:50 AM       
You are letting naldo drag you off the topic of this thread, which is exactly what he wants.

Ronnie, it's funny you'd accuse anyone of lacking comprehension.

"That's a laugh. You often site "seperation of church and state" as an American way of life. Where did the forefathers say that?

The first amendment directly opposes "seperation of church and state".

You are too easy."
-Naldo

I am too easy? Shame on you. Even if I give you your last point for the sake of argument, it doesn't adress the DIRECT QUESTION I put to you.

Name something America Stands for that I hate, and support your statement. You're all over the mao un this. I can tell you things America Stands For that I love. You've yet to sate a single principle America Stnds For that I hate. I'll get bck to you on the importance history and AMERICAN nature of the sepration of church and state, but I'll do it in a separate thread. This thread is for you

TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR OUTREAGEOUS LIE

That I hate what America Stands For

and ANSWER A DIRECT QUESTION
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  #56  
Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 10:53 AM       
How many ways can I put this?

Maybe eventually I'll say what you want to hear. You have failed to counter anything I've said.

How about the right to self defense? Can you defend your stance on that?
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  #57  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 10:53 AM       
Ok, lets take it a step further. Say a Texas town has always said a prayer for the players before their football game. Now (and Im being an asshole because I can), some family of Satanists from Seattle *cue evil music* come to the town. The kid decides to come to the game. He whines about the prayer that EVERYONE else agrees with, calls up the soon to be true facist ACLU. Wam Bam, no more prayin'. Now, since everyone believes we live in a democracy (it's actually a democratic republic, but I digress...), the majority should rule. So by our constitution and the majority rule, the kid should just buck up or not pray, while everyone else can. Simple as that. And if it were the opposite situation, the kid could say a silent prayer while everyone else does whatever they are going to do.
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  #58  
mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:09 AM       
Okay, so to formulate this is asomething America stands for, which is after alll what you accused me of hating, that would be:

"America stands for Her Right to Defend Herself"

A little awkward, and one of our more practical goals as opposed to our most lofty, but acceptable, and for the record the first tme you said anything that even with my help can be seen as SOMETHING AMERICA STANDS FOR.

The problem? I don't hate that principle at all. I think America has EVERY right to defend herself, I think that's a good thing, and I don't hate it in the least. I do think that our current war has very little to do with defending ourselves. If I don't choose to accept your personal defenition of all words, does this mean I hate this American Principle? Are you America now? Is there something in our constitution that says I am required to agree with the sitting president, but it sure as hell isn't treason to object strenously to a war that as a MEMBER OF THIS DEMOCRACY I think is very bad for the Principle I believe AMERICA STANDS FOR.

All you are able to show is that you and I disagree. Big news! Your translation of this into the claim that I HATE WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR borders on megalomania.

I sir, am a patriot of the highest order. You confuse a single administration for a country and your actions border on idolatry.

So far you have demonstrated:

1.) I am not as upbeat in my posts regarding America's recent policies as you'd like.
2.) I am in general too negative for your tastes.
3.) I suggested that if American Deaths and a sour economy prevented World War Three, I would find the trade acceptable. I remind you, you accept torture!
4.) You challenge one of the things I say America Stands for.

It's simple. State a principle America Stands for. Show how I hate it.
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  #59  
Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:09 AM       
Exactly.....

Maxi, should everyone be allowed to pray at the high school football game if they want......as long as Congress doesn't make it a law saying that they have to pray?

PLEASE ANSWER!
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:12 AM       
Gladly. I'll start another thread for it momentarily.

Meanwhile, how about you take the time to read my last post and answer it?
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  #61  
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:14 AM       
I do not believe max is anti-american, although I do disagree with him completely. There are people on these boards who are though, many of them very, very pro European Union, who would love nothing more than for America to either fall, or be consumed from within by misinformation and internal quarelling.
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  #62  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:15 AM       
If you have to say you are a patriot of the highest order, then no one will believe you. Show it by being consistent with the laws and protection of the law, and they wont have anything to say.
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  #63  
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:20 AM       
I'd only say something so unnecesary for Naldo. He's the only one who could think anything so patently absurd here. Note, Hinky doesn't think so and he seems to be as far away from me politically as you can get.

"Show it by being consistent with the laws and protection of the law, and they wont have anything to say."
Red a dozen of my posts.. Then read a dozen of Ronnies. Then say that again without smiling.
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  #64  
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:31 AM       
Oh, and Hinks...

A lot of those folks on the board who re anti-american are from other countries. So it;s kind of their right to be anti-american f that's the way they feel.

And mostly, I bet even they don't hate "What America Stands For".
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  #65  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:33 AM       
HNIC is correct. A lot of people (not necessarly on this board, although it is true, but just in general) are loving the whole EU concept. Sorry if it makes me have a bunch of patriotism and being jignostic, but I think countries should be soverign and not respect ANY "international law", because the ones that were put up by the UN were in fact communist in nature. Stated in essence that you have rights as long as they dont infringe with the UN, which is nothing but a debating group. I am afraid of a one world govt. All it would bring is trouble. BIG trouble.
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:38 AM       
"I think countries should be soverign and not respect ANY "international law"

Say, That's what Saddam thinks, too!
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  #67  
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:46 AM       
You know exactly what I mean, so dont try to put words in my mouth, jerkoff. There is a difference between international law and basic human rights. A Right is something that isnt granted by a govt, it is something that always is, a law is something that inhibits. International law is usually biased towards a more socalist/liberal slant. Saddam commits violation of human rights every friggin day. So thus, he must be stopped. He murders people, has sold weapons and helped terrorists that murdered citizens of the US. Enough reason for me to want to off him.
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sspadowsky sspadowsky is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 11:58 AM       
I hate to contribute to the backlog of questions that Raygun still hasn't answered, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Raygun, how does the First Amendment "directly oppose" the separation of church and state?

A simple, straightforward question. Answer it.
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  #69  
mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 12:02 PM       
I just stared a whole new thread so he can answer that question without being rude and divisive.

Vince, do I need to start one for you two? Do none of you know how and why to start a topic?

And of course, I was being flippant. I take it then you are saying that the US should intervene in any country where a military dictatorship is systematically violating the rights of it's citizens, and that we should make this deciion on our own?
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 12:17 PM       
Its less work to respond to it here.
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  #71  
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 12:28 PM        USA
I love the freedoms I have. I love what America stands for. I hate what American leaders have done to this country. And I feel this way about both the liberal and the conservative leaders. I refuse to say democrat and republican because it really isn't about that any more. Neither group really follows what their party is/was based on. Unfortunately, liberal/democrat and conservative/republican have become synonyms. Both sides are far too extreme. Life isn't black and white, but both sides want us to believe it is.
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  #72  
mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 12:35 PM       
Well said.
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  #73  
Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 12:53 PM       
I agree to some extent.

This country hasa moved way left of what was intended. And both sides are to blame for that.

Stop the I.R.S.
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  #74  
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 12:55 PM       
Wow. That was mealy mouthed. I'm glad you had time to offer that up. Now what say you answer a direct question.

Name something America stnds for and demonsrtate my hatred of it.
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  #75  
Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2003, 12:58 PM       
Free speech.
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