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  #76  
Ninjavenom Ninjavenom is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 11:08 PM       
Straight Dope
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  #77  
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 11:13 PM       
allahu akbar!
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 11:16 PM       
"People do horrible things all the time in the name of something or other. It doesn't necessarily make the subject bad, it makes those people bad."

According to this statement and our topic of discussion, it would appear that you are saying christians are bad. I don't think that's what you mean... Kids have been known to kill themselves while listening to Ozzy or Nirvana. Doesn't make Oz or Nirvana bad, but it does imply that the kids misconstrued the message in the songs. Just as messages in the bible are misconstrued. As a female living in the deep south, I see far too many instances where the bible is misconstued IMHO. Hell, the presidential gang wants to take highly personal choices away from women.
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 11:21 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
According to this statement and our topic of discussion, it would appear that you are saying christians are bad. I don't think that's what you mean... Kids have been known to kill themselves while listening to Ozzy or Nirvana. Doesn't make Oz or Nirvana bad, but it does imply that the kids misconstrued the message in the songs. Just as messages in the bible are misconstrued. As a female living in the deep south, I see far too many instances where the bible is misconstued IMHO. Hell, the presidential gang wants to take highly personal choices away from women.
You just said basically what I said.
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 11:24 PM       
People need to watch t.a.t.u. videos

ALL THE THINGS SHE SAID


All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
This is not enough

I'm in serious s--t, I feel totally lost
If I'm asking for help it's only because
Being with you has opened my eyes
Could I ever believe such a perfect surprise?

I keep asking myself, wondering how
I keep closing my eyes but I can't block you out
Wanna fly to a place where it's just you and me
Nobody else so we can be free

All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
All the things she said
All the things she said
Running through my head
This is not enough
This is not enough

All the things she said
All the things she said

And I'm all mixed up, feeling cornered and rushed
They say it's my fault but I want her so much
Wanna fly her away where the sun and rain
Come in over my face, wash away all the shame
When they stop and stare - don't worry me
_Cause I'm feeling for her what she's feeling for me
I can try to pretend, I can try to forget
But it's driving me mad, going out of my head

Mother looking at me
Tell me what do you see?
Yes, I've lost my mind

Daddy looking at me
Will I ever be free?
Have I crossed the line?
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 02:12 AM       
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 09:06 AM        sampling of christianity deaths
I did a bit of research to find out just how many people were killed in the name of christianity. While I didn't come up with an exact figure (maybe impossible?), I did find a few examples. Hitler was a christian...

Concern about rampant violence has become ever more central in public discussions in America recently, especially where it involves the nation's youth. Recent incidents of brutal and deadly attacks by children against children have prompted an intense debate as to the cause and solutions for what is perceived as degenerating culture. It is rather ironic that the increase in attention happens at a time when actual incidents of violence are decreasing. Not only are the general statistics of violence showing a dramatic decrease with increasing rates of decrease, but even violence against children is decreasing.

But it is a truism that exceptional cases make for bad law and bad legal precedents. Following along in parallel, the exceptional cases of youth violence are being used by opportunistic politicians and religious leaders to create genuinely bad laws. Simple people are searching for simple causes and simple solutions.

The simplest among them immediately claim that the cause for youth violence must be the lack of government supported religion in children's lives, so their natural conclusion is that our government should increase its involvement with religion. And not just any religion - Christianity is the first and usually only choice. Practical policy suggestions include daily prayers, bible readings, and the ever popular posting of the Ten Commandments.

It would perhaps be unacceptable in some circles to point out the fact that in many European countries, religion plays an even smaller role in people's lives than it does in America - yet levels of violence are lower than here. Were a lack of religion any sort of cause of violence, then we would find higher amounts of violence in countries like Germany rather than Ireland, where both religion and violence have been prominent in daily life.

Facts like this must lead any rational person to treat claim of religion as a solution to our ills - real or perceived - with real skepticism. Religion has in fact done even more to promote base inhumanity when it has become wedded to ruling political powers. It has been a common pattern throughout human history that wherever religious dogmas have gained worldly power, violence was abetted rather than stopped. Even if a person were to successfully argue that none of the violence was caused by religion, the fact would remain that religion not only failed to stop it, but has actually served as a useful tool for those perpetuating it.

Is Christianity only a religion of Peace and Love? I do not think that anyone can honestly and objectively examine American or European history and answer "yes" to that question. Christianity can encourage Peace and Love - but it certainly need not, and it quite often has done just the opposite. Although the people responsible for violence might have found a way to express their hatred without Christianity, it cannot be ignored that Christianity offers a convenient divine mandate for hatred and violent acts against a wide range of people.

As a reference for those who find that it is sometimes necessary to education others about the history of violence associated with Christianity, below is a list of links to various eras and incidents. In each case, religion has served as a principle catalyst for the violence or has, at the very least, assisted in justifying and perpetuating that violence.

Early History
Although it is often argued that violence during Christian history is simply an aberration which results from people who twisted the original Christian message, that may not be entirely true. Violent inclinations in Christianity are apparent right from the beginning.

Crusades
One of the most famous examples of religious violence in the Middle Ages is of course the Crusades - attempts by European Christians to impose their vision of religion upon Jews, Orthodox Christians, heretics, Muslims, and just about anyone else who happened to get in the way.

Inquistion
Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition in 1231, and burning was quickly decided upon as the official Christian punishment. Administrators and Inquisitors were all answerable directly to the Pope - which essentially made him directly responsible for their actions.

Reformation
The Reformation was supposed to restore a more original and more pure form of Christianity. One of the results was the death of millions upon millions of Europeans during decades almost unprecedented religious violence.

Witches
Witches have long been feared and hated in Christian circles. Even today, pagans and Wiccans remain a target of Christian persecution and violence - even in America. It seems that they long ago took on an identity which reached far beyond their own existence and became a symbol for Christians - but a symbol of what?

Bible Wars
One sad bit of American and Christian history which few (if any) manage to learn about are the "Bible Wars" between Catholics and Protestants in the latter half of the 19th century. This is especially unfortunate because is remarkably resembles some of the issues which face us today with regards to having religion in public school. If it could lead to violence and death then, we should be wary today.

Holocaust
Was the Nazi Holocaust religious or was it secular? A bit of both, actually. Nazi oppression and massacres against political opponents and gypsies were obviously secular in nature - but the determination to exterminate the Jews from the face of the earth cannot possibly be understood without the background of centuries of persistent and violent Christian anti-semitism, generally encouraged by religious authorities.

Northern Ireland
The terrible combination of nationalism, politics and religion has had deadly consequences for the people living in Northern Ireland. Catholics and Protestants have been vilifying, attacking, torturing and killing each other in a seemingly endless cycle. What role does Christianity play in all of this violence?

Modern America
America in the 20th century has suffered from many violent incidents which can be traced back to Christianity. Some have been organized, others not so organized, but all the result of specifically violent or dangerous doctrines promoted in Christian churches.

Jonesboro & Paducah
Commentary on the school violence which occurred in Jonesboro and Paducah. Would more religion in the schools have prevented the violent outbursts, as some religious leaders claim?
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  #83  
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 09:08 AM        t.a.t.u.
Thanks apportioner. The chances of me watching a video are slim, but I appreciate the lyrics.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 12:08 PM       
Please tell me you have better things to do that ask your computer questions like "Do snuff films exist?".
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 01:08 PM       
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Please name one religion that could possibly be accountable for more deaths than christianity. Not being controversial so much as curious. Give me something to argue with my professor.
I honestly don't know. It's very possible that Christianity IS responsible for more deaths than any other religion, I just thought it was a rather presumptuous claim to have made without a lot of careful study going into ALL major religions.

You've certainly done your homework on Christianity though, I will grant you that. I however would personally hesitate to assign such a title to any religion seeing as how my knowledge of them is admittedly limited.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 01:12 PM       
It's funny 'cause I think that claim is actually valid, Proto, although I can't provide any hard fact other than reading it in E.R.Dodds "Ethics and Christians in a Time of Agony" (title and spelling translated from my greek copy - could be different in english) and other History books, including my school's official one.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 01:21 PM       
how do these things always turn anti christian? ALL RELIGON IS FRAUD. all of it. every one of them.


i started this because i am sick of the media pushing god as the solution to answers and i am sick of it.

in fifty words or less, without using the word FAITH or Belief. give me a reason to take God seriously.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 01:30 PM        Re: sampling of christianity deaths
Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Hitler was a christian...

Early History
Although it is often argued that violence during Christian history is simply an aberration which results from people who twisted the original Christian message, that may not be entirely true. Violent inclinations in Christianity are apparent right from the beginning.
incorrect. early christianity didnt have the strength to be a violent religion. certain christians were violent, such as the nords, but not in the name of christianity. besides, violence was THE way of life in the day.

Hitler didnt do what he did in the name of christianity, he did it for the germanic peoples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Crusades
One of the most famous examples of religious violence in the Middle Ages is of course the Crusades - attempts by European Christians to impose their vision of religion upon Jews, Orthodox Christians, heretics, Muslims, and just about anyone else who happened to get in the way.
incorrect. the crusades were established to defend the holy land from the saracens who conquered it from the jews. aside from a few notables like Richard of Champagne, the saracen muslims were twice as violent as the crusaders. ex: slaughtering the woman and children of acre as an example to the christian pilgrims, or the burning alive of the surrendered knights templar. with the saracens, if you couldnt pay ransom, you died. this was not the case with the christians, check your sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Inquistion
Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition in 1231, and burning was quickly decided upon as the official Christian punishment. Administrators and Inquisitors were all answerable directly to the Pope - which essentially made him directly responsible for their actions.
unfortunately you have the right of this. while it was not a catastrophic murder spree, this IS one of the worst moments of christian history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Reformation
The Reformation was supposed to restore a more original and more pure form of Christianity. One of the results was the death of millions upon millions of Europeans during decades almost unprecedented religious violence.
you are referring to the violence against the protestants? such as the huguenots in france? the very ones who were rebelling and demanding the overthrow of the catholic king? what would you do if you were a medieval king facing a civil war? you would capture or kill the rebels, which is exactly what happened. besides, there werent MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people in europe at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Witches
Witches have long been feared and hated in Christian circles. Even today, pagans and Wiccans remain a target of Christian persecution and violence - even in America. It seems that they long ago took on an identity which reached far beyond their own existence and became a symbol for Christians - but a symbol of what?
you dont seem to understand that witches were shunned by ALL religions. today if you asked the average christian they will tell you that they dont believe in witches. you have a very archaic view of christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Bible Wars
One sad bit of American and Christian history which few (if any) manage to learn about are the "Bible Wars" between Catholics and Protestants in the latter half of the 19th century. This is especially unfortunate because is remarkably resembles some of the issues which face us today with regards to having religion in public school. If it could lead to violence and death then, we should be wary today.
i havent heard of these. you would think that any religious topic that caused a wave of death wouldnt have escaped all the european history classes i have taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Holocaust
Was the Nazi Holocaust religious or was it secular? A bit of both, actually. Nazi oppression and massacres against political opponents and gypsies were obviously secular in nature - but the determination to exterminate the Jews from the face of the earth cannot possibly be understood without the background of centuries of persistent and violent Christian anti-semitism, generally encouraged by religious authorities.
SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR SECULAR

HITLER WAS NOT A PRACTICING CATHOLIC, THAT IS JUST USED TO JUSTIFY HATRED OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Northern Ireland
The terrible combination of nationalism, politics and religion has had deadly consequences for the people living in Northern Ireland. Catholics and Protestants have been vilifying, attacking, torturing and killing each other in a seemingly endless cycle. What role does Christianity play in all of this violence?
once again this is a secular matter. the problems with northern ireland come more from the irish desire to be completely autonomous. after years of bad blood between them, it is more about this than christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Modern America
America in the 20th century has suffered from many violent incidents which can be traced back to Christianity. Some have been organized, others not so organized, but all the result of specifically violent or dangerous doctrines promoted in Christian churches.
thats nice and vague.

Quote:
Originally Posted by womanwithballs
Jonesboro & Paducah
Commentary on the school violence which occurred in Jonesboro and Paducah. Would more religion in the schools have prevented the violent outbursts, as some religious leaders claim?
now this goes against your original point.
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  #89  
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 03:50 PM       
Quote:
aside from a few notables like Richard of Champagne, the saracen muslims were twice as violent as the crusaders.
Not entirely true. They only seemed more violent because pretty much any crime that you could commit had a punishment that involved execution or amputation.

The Muslims conquered the Holy Land, but they were perfectly happy to allow Christians to come and go as they pleased and even allowed the Christians to continue practicing their religion. It wasn't until some crazy Muslim governor decided to burn down that temple in Bethlehem (I forget what it was called. ) that the Christians in Europe got all fired up and ran off to "liberate" the Holy Land.

As it turned out, the Crusaders ended up killing more people than the Muslims did, and "liberating" included looting, pillaging and killing the peasants (including large numbers of Christians).

History also seems to forget that the Muslims rebuilt the temple that the crazy guy ordered burnt down, too. :/
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 04:09 PM       
NEED ANOTHER HISTORY LESSON CHIMP? YOU NEVER RESPONDED TO THE LAST ONE

they WERE more violent chimp. the idea of islam at the time was that aside from the treasures of the afterlife, you got what you could take in your earthly life. this is how saladin and mohammed were able to hold the islamic hordes together, promise of booty of both types

"the temple" was rebuilt countless times during the crusades and was burned and desecrated by the saracens every time thy got into the city. "the temple" was made the hq of the knights templars during the occupation of jerusalem. the temple of solomon was many things, but it wasnt the cause of the crusades. if anything it was the overly zealous pope urban II, the pressure of the seljuk turks on the byzantines, and a deep-seated resentment of islam in iberia. eventually it became a war to liberate the holy lands.

they were NOT perfectly happy to allow christians to come and go as they please. that is the whole reason the knights of the temple of solomon (templar knights) and the knights of the hospital of st. john were formed. to protect pilgrims from SARACEN RAIDERS. plus, subjected christians in muslim lands were second class citizens at best, slaves at worst.



but none of this takes away from the fact that the woman with nuts was wrong.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 05:37 PM       
To the best of my historic knowledge, Stereotype is mostly right.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 05:38 PM       
Dude, I said a temple in Bethlehem, not the Temple of Solomon in Jeruselem. It had already been destroyed for over 1000 years with JEWISH (not Christian) temples being built/torn down/rebuilt during that time.

And, yes, I know that it wasn't the sole cause of the Crusades. It was, however, one of the excuses that the Pope needed to convince everyone run off and at the same time, inconspicuously increase his power.

Muslims DID tolerate other religions, as long as those others recognized that they were infidels (which is still the case today). They didn't prohibit other religions in anyway, however. The Knights Templar weren't formed until AFTER the first Crusade was over, and of course the "raiders" would be attacking pilgrims and people travelling around; they were soldiers trying to take back the land that they had been kicked out of.

You seem to think that the Muslims were barbarians, when in reality they were much more civilized and advanced, both culturally and technologically, than Europe.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 05:45 PM       
Cultural advancement is a silly notion. Advancement using what scale?
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 05:52 PM       
You know, stuff like "washing makes you clean, and therefore you won't get sick as much."
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 06:15 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
Dude, I said a temple in Bethlehem, not the Temple of Solomon in Jeruselem. It had already been destroyed for over 1000 years with JEWISH (not Christian) temples being built/torn down/rebuilt during that time.
ok, i didnt see that you were talking about bethlehem. by your timeline, the temple of solomon would have been destroyed during the lifetime of jesus...i honestly dont know if that is true :/

i DO know that it had been rebuilt by the jews, byzantine christians, and muslims over a period of however many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
And, yes, I know that it wasn't the sole cause of the Crusades. It was, however, one of the excuses that the Pope needed to convince everyone run off and at the same time, inconspicuously increase his power.
the pope didnt need to increase his power. he was the most powerful man in europe at the time of the crusades. the reasons i stated were the causes of the crusades, maybe yours helped fuel it, i dont know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
Muslims DID tolerate other religions, as long as those others recognized that they were infidels (which is still the case today). They didn't prohibit other religions in anyway, however. The Knights Templar weren't formed until AFTER the first Crusade was over, and of course the "raiders" would be attacking pilgrims and people travelling around; they were soldiers trying to take back the land that they had been kicked out of.
yes i know that the muslims didnt forcibly convert the christians, but you should re-read what i wrote earlier. they were not tolerant of any faith besides their own, they allowed it because they didnt want rebellion. saladin himself said this. the knights templar were technically formed DURING the first crusade (1119) and the raiders were not trying to take back the lands they had lost. these were seljuk raiders in anatolia, which never left muslim hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
You seem to think that the Muslims were barbarians, when in reality they were much more civilized and advanced, both culturally and technologically, than Europe.
nobody was very civilized in the era we are talking about, but i am not trying to make them out to be barbarians. i am trying to dispell the image you have of them being some kind of gentleman race desperately trying to defend themselves from the bloodthirsty crusaders.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 06:21 PM       
OOPS! I neglected to give the website where I got all the info. It wasn't MY words and I didn't intend to take credit for them. I saved the website on my daughter's computer this morning at her house just before I rushed to work. I'll get it for you asap (whomever is interested). And as I said before, it was my professor that made the claim... I simply repeated what he said. I'm no religious scholar. You guys have a better understanding of the history than I do. So, this woman with nuts was wrong to not add in the website, not wrong in her copying and pasting technique. :/ I'll get that website for you, Italian... and YOU can argue with the sources.

I do understand that witches were treated badly by all religions. I don't hate the catholic faith. It's no more oppressive and/or ridiculous than all the rest of them. I also know it's not a wise idea to assume things about people you know precious little about.


Here's one website with a little comparative analysis:

http://godisnowhere.org/Articles/cachristislam.htm
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 06:49 PM       
Quote:
the temple of solomon would have been destroyed during the lifetime of jesus...i honestly dont know if that is true
It was actually destroyed twice. The first time by the Babylonians circa 400 BC and then by the Romans in either 70 AD or 70 BC (one of those).

You are right about it being rebuilt by all those civilizations. It's Muslim tradition to build their holy sites on the holy sites of other religions.

Quote:
the pope didnt need to increase his power. he was the most powerful man in europe at the time of the crusades.
Yeah, but as the saying goes, "absolute power corrupts absolutely." I recall seeing a TLC program about the Crusades that said the Pope wanted to solidify his authority in Europe and expand his influence to all Christians. We probably will never know all the reasons. :/

Quote:
and the raiders were not trying to take back the lands they had lost. these were seljuk raiders in anatolia, which never left muslim hands.
It still boils down to the fact that the raids started after the Crusades began. The Europeans were considered to be foreign invaders.

I read an interesting piece in a book I used in a history project in junior high that the only reason that the Europeans succeeded in taking Jeruselam was that a) the Muslims had just had a fairly protracted civil war, if not bloody, and there was a lot of confusion and b) they were all like "WTF?" when the European knights showed up one day and started attacking. It took them a while to realize that people would travel that far to actually pick a fight.

Quote:
i am trying to dispell the image you have of them being some kind of gentleman race desperately trying to defend themselves from the bloodthirsty crusaders.
I'm not saying they were gentlemanly; all humans are equally capable of violence. In fact, Saladin's army once set fire to a grass plain and basically burned a Crusader army to death while they were sleeping. To this day, they still use their religion as justification for a lot of things that Christianity learned to distance itself from or was never associated with.

The fact of the matter is, though, that the Muslims were centuries ahead of Europe. The only reason why European scholars had copies of classical literature to study and imitate during the Renaissance is mostly because Arabs were big fans of Greek and Roman stuff and made hundreds of copies.

They also made great advances in science, particularly medicine, astronomy and math. The Crusades were actually beneficial for Europeans in a way, because it brought back countless new ideas and commodities when soldiers started coming home.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 06:55 PM       
i doubt that we will ever agree about what started the crusades or the reasons for the military orders or a lot of what actually happened during the campaigns...

i do agree that the crusades were beneficial for western europe and helped usher in the renaissance. i also think we went above and beyond anything the muslims would have done had they continued in their upward trends.
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 06:57 PM       
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nobody was very civilized in the era we are talking about
And by civilized I take it you mean more AChimp hygene moronity or something else?
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ItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty ok
Old Feb 5th, 2003, 07:02 PM       
i suppose it depends. i dont recall what i was thinking when i posted that...civilization is in the eye of the beholder.

who knows what chimp thinks is civilized...they fling their own shit for christs sake.
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