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McClain McClain is offline
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 01:13 PM        Proposition 8 - Totally Gay Corollary Observations
I've been watching a lot of news lately (it's become too easy to extract the humor in "Husband-Rapes-Wife" Lifetime shows) and there's a lot of hype about Proposition 8 in California. If you're not already aware, for the longest time gay people couldn't wed. In the year 2000 Proposition 22 legally prohibited same-sex marriage because a lot of gays were asking for their right to wed and those in power wanted to quell the gay's thirst for "dirty" sex.

Then in May 2008 the Supreme Court basically said*, "Hey, it's cool. Tie your knots, gay boys! And you women can tie… well, you can rub your knots since you don't have pricks and can't tie tits."

*Said in a more colloquial manner.

So for six glorious months married gay couples were actually recognized by the state of California. Veil stocks soared, penis-shaped party favors were sold out across the state (they'd already been sold out in San Francisco for years) and those 99 Californian right-wingers quickly sought shelter from the barrage of Matrimonious Mo's.

"Don't look at them Timmy! Avert your eyes! You might want to marry a man one day, too, lest you stare!"

It was a time of celebration for the gay community. Finally their constitutional rights were being recognized and the validation served as an inspiration not only to gays, but to any demographic that faced discrimination and prejudice.

But then, in a religion-fueled campaign that netted nearly $38 million, Californian voters at the November polls supported Proposition 8 which eliminated the gay's right to wed - and suddenly all those dirty gays with their dirty butt secks found their sin-soaked marriage certificates null.

The church had scraped up enough money for their campaign and with a swift palm to the forehead, rebuked the gay community. Proposition 8 also amended the state constitution to say, "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

"We're safe now, Timmy! Those heathens aren't recognized by the State! Put a check in the box for Jesus!"
"But mom," cried Timmy. "They're still together. They're still gay. And once a constitutional amendment has been granted it can't be taken away. It's just that now they just don't have a piece of paper. How is that a moral victory? It doesn't change anything for you… other than you get to deny other human beings their rights."
At that, the mother chided her own kin with a swift bludgeon of the KJV, text messaged her pastor, and requested him to immediately exorcise the gay demons that infiltrated her son's puerile mind.
"OMG KK OMW" he responded.


So here we are now. People on both sides are pissed off. And it begs the question to those who oppose same-sex marriage: How does this affect you? Please answer this question without resorting to law; either our constitution or your religious decree.

Can you tell me how it will change your hetero lifestyle? Will your food taste different? Does it alter your shopping experience? Do you hate gays? Is it 4chan? Did brief exposure to 4chan gaymeme sway you this way? Was it that "What What In the Butt" music video?

I think most religious people are ignorant, but they deserve the right to be ignorant.

Have your religion! Wear your garb and drink the (grape-flavored) Blood of Christ! And the (Triscuity) Flesh of Jesus! Pray to an invisible being and adorn your immaculate marble-and-gold-leaf-encrusted temples of worship with the sadistic portrayal of a mythical man being hideously murdered! Do all this while people starve on the streets! GOGOGO! Collect money from your parishioners so your temple can have new oak pews and exotic felt-lined hand-crafted solid-brass communion trays!
...

You know what? I think The Church does some really wonderful things and some really shitty things. But I firmly believe in their right to conduct their ceremonies and exercise their beliefs in spite of my personal deliberations.

Isn't it in your nature to do the same? I know some of you religious folk are more progressive... But some still cling to the maxim of a 20th-century institution.

"God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!"

Oh really? Pray tell, did God intend for males to fuck their mothers? Because unless Cain or Abel railed Eve for the sake of posterity, I don't see how that homogeneous scenario transcends beyond two generations.
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I have children and I don't want them to be gay. But not because I disagree with the lifestyle - I don't want my children to be gay because of ignorance toward sexual orientation. I don't wish upon my child to be treated unfairly. Gays aren't treated fairly. They're not afforded the same opportunities as "traditional" couples. And while I fall under the male demographic that thinks lesbianism is cool and gay men acts are typically gross (though if I had to blow a dude it would probably be Ryan Reynolds) I still feel that gays deserve the full benefits of our constitution.

"Our Bill of Rights make no mention of allowing homosexuals to marry each other!"

News Flash: In its inception it made no mention of only permitting a man and woman to wed each other, but was amended at the behest of religious zealots.

And so-effin'-what if our founding fathers didn't intend for those rights to extend to homosexuals? What, like they were perfect angels? Yes, their idealism is the functional premise for this democracy, however, their personal views should be considered postscript. Those men had fucken slaves, man! SLAVES! Man.

"I don't agree with homosexual marriage because it ruins the sanctity of marriage!"

But what is "sanctity" if it isn't a fundamental form of exclusivity? All it means is that something is spiritual, holy. Why can't gays have sanctity? Would Jesus deny a gay person? People who use this argument essentially believe in the Christian sanctity of marriage. Which is fine. But it's reinforcing the belief that federal-recognized matrimony is a right exclusive solely to heterosexuals. The "sanctity" of marriage = the exclusive right of Christian heterosexuals to wed. It isn't and shouldn't be available to anyone of different sexual orientation by this line of thinking.

Do Jews believe in the sanctity of marriage? How about those of Muslim faith? The fact is they do. But this country wasn't founded on their views. This ideal is not inherently Christian. (Just goes to show that while religions can't agree on a personal savior, bias toward orientation indeed crosses denominational and theological boundaries.)

"We should provide gays an institution of union that doesn't tread on the 'sanctity' of marriage!"

How?

SEMANTICS!

Instead of using the religious term "marriage" they can have "Civil Unions". They get the same state recognition and partner benefits they deserve without sullying the church's ideal. The paperwork is filed in the same manner.

"But wait... Hasn't this been done already?"

Yes, it has!

And it was SHOT DOWN by the religious rite. Virginia tried their hand at Civil Unions in the late 90s and and they were crushed. They even strayed from the "married" verbiage to widen the gap for the sake of religion and it's overtly sensitive drones.

There's really only one way to do this; let same-sex partners get "married". I promise, it won't cheapen your marriage at all. If this were to be suddenly amended you won't open your front door only to see your wife looking at you in disgust.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 01:49 PM       
sanctity of marriage is the only good argument i've really seen for gay marriage, and that's because it's hard to understand. I don't necessarily think it has ONLY to do with something spiritual, though.

I can name a few differences, though. if you give everyone the same benefits as straight people, then tax/insurance and other benefits will cease to be as good. Insurance companies couldn't afford to give homos the same benefits as heterosexuals so the insurance will NATURALLY have to adjust the way they distribute their benefits. Thus, an actual affect which heterosexuals could suffer at the hands of homosexual marriage.

I could try to give you an explanation for the sanctity of marriage that involves stuff like those benefits and other stuff, but I really don't know if that's the sanctity of marriage, or me just being charitable ;/

i think i made one in that homo argument i had with jeanette in the philosophy forum ;o
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 01:51 PM       
the other problem is pro-gay marriage people.

Quote:
Instead of using the religious term "marriage" they can have "Civil Unions". They get the same state recognition and partner benefits they deserve without sullying the church's ideal.
A pro gay-marriage person might call that a separate but equal institution
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 02:45 PM       
Good post, it's definitely a completely ridiculous situation whichever way you look at it. What ever happened to turning the other cheek or doing unto others as you would have them do unto you? I guess gay-hatin' takes precedence.

One thing and I hate to bring it up but it annoys me so much:

Quote:
And it begs the question
This doesn't mean what you think it means. I don't know why but no one in the world knows when the correct time to say "which begs the question" is
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 04:18 PM       
Is common law marriage still around? They would definitely need to reword it. For some reason I think you can get divorced from a gay marriage in Texas but cannot marry there. I'll have more later.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 04:42 PM       
Thee is no common law marriage in California, it went out in the late 90's I think.Also, I didn't know that the faggots and lesbos that got married during that six months marriage license is null and void. Are you sure of that? I don't feel like looking it up, I might turn gay if I go to those web pages.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 05:21 PM       
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Originally Posted by McClain View Post
And it begs the question to those who oppose same-sex marriage: How does this affect you?
It doesn't in any way whatsoever, which is why it's complete bullshit. It's pathetic that issues like this still even exist these days. Oh how far we've come and yet how far we still have to go...
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 05:32 PM       
I don't even like putting a hot dog in a bun. It's all one big gay bbq, buddy you can count me out, I'm from the south, you won't find no wiener in my mouth!

(if you sing it like a country song it sounds even better)
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 07:09 PM       
We need to start u.s.a. #2.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 07:24 PM       
this whole thing is stupid and had better be overturned by the courts.

why would anyone (who isn't a total idiot) vote for the government to dictate what a religion should believe, (so long as their actions don't cause others harm - which this in NO WAY does). if a church/religion believes in marrying gay couples it's no one elses business. how would they feel if we voted that you can't believe in jesus just because we don't believe in jesus.

fucking stupid

there is absolutely no logical argument that can be made against it.

though one could argue the state shouldn't recognize marriage at all and that's certainly fair as well.

i'm so sick of all this bullshit
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 07:56 PM       
If we allow gays to marry, we'll have to allow Mormons to have 20 wives. No thank you.

Call it what you will, just don't call it marriage. Liberals think that opponents of gay marriage are hateful homophobes, but I'd say the majority just have a problem with gay ladies and gentlemen calling it "marriage". At least George Takei is happy, which makes me happy
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 08:14 PM       
What's wrong with having 20 wives?
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 08:30 PM       
That's 20 times as much nagging. Who would want that anyway?
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 09:17 PM       
Government shouldn't be dictating marriage in the first place. They should recognize civil unions and leave the definition of "marriage" to the people. If you want to have a marriage, go to church. If you want matrimony without the religious BS, get a union.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 09:33 PM       
I kind of agree McClain. Sometimes i think that marriages should be done on a religious basis. If it's really a religious or spiritual institution it should be fine for any church to marry anyone (although what about dogs and children and stuff right) that they truly believe should be married. Whereas the legal benefits should exist as a legal institution. If marriage is treated as a legal institution completely then a lot of arguments are voided, so most people avoid that. There is really no reason why homosexuals who have the same lifestyle as heterosexuals shouldn't receive similar benefits and statuses, and generally those types of things are delivered by a legal or political institution.
mostly though i think it avoids only valuing one religious definition of marriage which is actually a conflict of church and state... usually people dodge that accusation by saying something like, "separation of church and state is only designed to keep the STATE out of the church, not to keep the church out of the state."

does marriage mean anything besides legal benefits? i think its interesting that people think of people who are married as like i dont know, cut off or something. Like you shouldn't fuck them. It's a magic spell. There's really no reason for it, but most people, openly at least, think its wrong to fuck people who are married.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 10:13 PM       
ive had this argument 1000 times, at first i just wanted to know what their reasons were for opposing gay marriage, because certainly then i could win them over with logic and eventempered debate. but the reasons are dumb. scaremongering and misconception and fabricated statistics. it doesnt bother me so much anymore, its relaxing enough watching the ebb and flow. gay marriage is inevitable and everyone knows it.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 10:29 PM       
If I have sex with 20 women at the same time withought supporting them, I'm a god. If they are my wives I'm a pig.
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Old Dec 19th, 2008, 10:41 PM       
They should just ban marriage in general. All it does is lead to arguing.
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Old Dec 20th, 2008, 10:06 AM       
It's obvious that marriage is a failing institution in this country. There are lots of ways to remedy the issue... but progress will be stifled due to religious zealots and their disregard for civil progression.
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Old Dec 20th, 2008, 02:52 PM       
what is the purpose of marriage, McClain?
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Old Dec 20th, 2008, 03:13 PM       
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Originally Posted by DeadKennedys View Post
If we allow gays to marry, we'll have to allow Mormons to have 20 wives. No thank you.
Sure, if someone can make a convincing argument that certain people, when they are born, have a natural perdilection towards polygamy, and that it is not merely a choice they make when they subscribe to a certain religion.
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Old Dec 20th, 2008, 03:18 PM       
SAN FRANCISCO — The California attorney general has changed his position on the state's new same-sex marriage ban and is now urging the state Supreme Court to void Proposition 8.
In a dramatic reversal, Attorney General Jerry Brown filed a legal brief saying the measure that amended the California Constitution to limit marriage to a man and a woman is itself unconstitutional because it deprives a minority group of a fundamental right. Earlier, Brown had said he would defend the ballot measure against legal challenges from gay marriage supporters.
But Brown said he reached a different conclusion "upon further reflection and a deeper probing into all the aspects of our Constitution.
"It became evident that the Article 1 provision guaranteeing basic liberty, which includes the right to marry, took precedence over the initiative," he said in an interview Friday night. "Based on my duty to defend the law and the entire Constitution, I concluded the court should protect the right to marry even in the face of the 52 percent vote."


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Old Dec 20th, 2008, 03:27 PM       
Don't they only get so many do-overs though.
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Old Dec 20th, 2008, 03:35 PM       
California is like an America inside an America. We really do whatever the fuck we want.
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Old Dec 20th, 2008, 04:06 PM       
that's what happens everytime. Voters vote gay marriage in. Then it gets voted out. then it gets in again. Its stupid.

i don't think there is a limit on "do-overs" otherwise people could completely ingrain something into our society just by having it voted in or out enough times. I don't really know though ;/
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