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  #26  
Bennett Bennett is offline
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 04:08 PM       
I would consider it to be more fantasy than science fiction, but that is my opinion...

by your own words, if it is irrelevant, what purpose can it serve? What good was done by introducing metachloreans?
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CastroMotorOil CastroMotorOil is offline
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 04:49 PM       
it really is much more fantasy then science fiction. It contains wizards, heroes, damsels in distress, and evil warlords. Boba fett really was not ruined much for me, considering he does not wear his fathers armor, he is still a badass and stuff, plus is you read any of the books he does not die in the sarlacc, he kicks its ass. The midichlorians thing sucks, but t does not go against anything in the other movies. They are what give living things the ability to manipulate the force. Technically all livings things have them, only some people have more. The force is still mystical and shit, its described as a religion is ep 4. grr im way to big of a star wars geek. i bought galaxies the day it came out
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 05:18 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennett
I would consider it to be more fantasy than science fiction, but that is my opinion...

by your own words, if it is irrelevant, what purpose can it serve? What good was done by introducing metachloreans?
Science fantasy is a more applicable term, I suppose.

Did I say it was completely irrelevant? No.

"What propagates the ability to actually use the Force is irrelevant compared to the sheer will of determination it takes to wield it effectively."
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 06:35 PM       
I realize that Jar-Jar had a purpose, but he could have been far less annoying about it, just as the Gungans could have been.

Very funny comment, Zero . Shit, i'm not claiming to be different than other people or any of that other bullshit. What i'm whining about is how the kid they picked looked like some doofus they just picked off the street as they drove by him. I have seen at least six other people on my school alone that look just like him. His performance was awful, too. He delivered his lines with a hackney and played-out manner. Maybe it's just the way the lines were written. I don't know, but it bugged the shit out of me.

Also, you misinterpreted what i said about Fett. His appeal was that no one knew what, or who the hell he was. You only say he's human because you know that now. Before episode II, he was whatever anyone wanted to imagine him being. Don't tell me you knew he was human then, either. He never talked, and his shape could have been that of any humanoid creature, not just a human. He was mysterious, and dangerous, that's all we knew. Now we know that he's some curly-haired Australian clone boy. That completely ruins everything about him. I can't think of him as a mysterious and ruthless bounty hunter when i see him from now on, because i saw him as a child. He was a boring, blubbering crybaby, and as Bennett said, his motive was old and tired.
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 06:44 PM       
Well, it was only one or two lines, but Boba Fett DID talk.

"Bring Solo to the ship" or something like that.

Ahh, but he didn't have an Australian accent! P'shaw!
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 08:00 PM       
Whether it is completely irrelevant, or irrelevant compared to something else, the question still remains, what good does it do to advancing the already established story?
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 08:08 PM       
I wish someone would just assasinate Lucas
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 08:45 PM       
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Originally Posted by Skulhedface
"The FORCE! Any time some inaccuracy is pointed out, THE FORCE DID IT!" ~ anonymous quote (meaning I forgot the damn source)
That's from the Simpsons except it was "A wizard" instead of "The Force". It's from the one with Xena.
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 09:04 PM       
Quote:
"Bring Solo to the ship" or something like that.
"Put Captain Solo in the crago hold."


BOW TO MY UBERGEEKDOM!!!

I like the background Fett was given in the books. He was a lawman who went after a crooked politician and was banished from his home planet. He wasn't evil for the sake of being evil. It was because he had a black and white view.

And Zero, have you been to http://www.stardestroyer.net ? I think you'd like it.
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 09:47 PM       
Okay, let me lay this out for all you Boba Fett fans. His "badass appeal" ended the very SECOND he was killed by a blind man with a stick. I liked him when I was younger, and he certainly does look cool. But now knowing all of his past, knowing who his "father" was and how he grew to hate the Jedi makes his eventual chumpy death all the more pathetic. At least "daddy" got his head cut off by a Jedi rather than being ACCIDENTALLY KILLED by a cripple.

And don't even give me that crap about how he survived and is such a badass in the books. Most of those books are shit. Yeah, it's really cool that Dengar helped him out after he escaped the Sarlaac. And then Boba Fett was the best man at Dengar's wedding. Yeah, that's just awesome. Oh, and then there's the fact that a naked Princess Leia was thrown into Boba Fett's quarters in Jabba's Palace, so Boba Fett, being a hardcore proponant of JUSTICE, covered her with a blanket and gave her his bunk, while he slept on the floor. What a great guy! I love how the special edition of ROTJ pretty much negates all of that shit about Boba Fett being this really moralistic guy by having him macking on the scummy dancing chicks. In the movies, he is a scummy bastard.

And the fact that George Lucas felt the need to insert him into the New Hope special edition just makes him suck even more. Now, rather than being the most fearsome bounty hunter in the galaxy, he appears to be little more than one of Jabba's cronies, just hanging around the big fat slug like he's got nothing better to do. In ROTJ he was just killing off some time after dropping off a bounty, spending some cash, having fun with the ladies...but the New Hope thing was just gratuitous. And it completely changes my perception of the character.

As for the prequels, on SOME levels I enjoy them both. However, neither one of them even COMPARES to the weakest of the original three (ROTJ, in my opinion). George Lucas has done a piss poor job of fitting them seamlessly into the overall story. Rather than plan everything out ahead, it seems that he's just pulling shit out of his ass and now he's struggling to fit big square pegs into little round holes. And he's talking about going back and revising the OLD trilogy so it all fits together. That's backasswards. He SHOULD have written the new trilogy to fit with the old from the beginning.

Let's face it, George Lucas is a very poor, sloppy storyteller. He's a GREAT idea man, I'll give him that, but his ideas are best when they are actually executed by other people (as evidenced by "Empire Strikes Back", directed by Irvin Kershner and written by Lawrence Kasdan and Leigh Brackett from Lucas' ideas). If he was smart, after the complete travesty that was "The Phantom Menace", he would have admitted that he's VERY rusty and let someone else have the reins for the next two movies, while he fell into an Executive Producer role. That could have salvaged things.

As it stands now:

* Jar Jar Binks is the worst character ever made in any story ever.

* The love story between Anakin and Padme is fucking ludicrous ("you just slaughtered a bunch of women and children??? that's so hot! wanna fuck???")

* Anakin is a character for whom the audience has NO empathy whatsoever (and that was vital if we are to feel that his downfall is tragic in any way).

* Qui-Gon Jinn was a fucking useless character and it makes the whole "Yoda trained Obi-Wan" thing a bunch of bullshit.

* Darth Maul may have looked cool, but as a character, he sucked. And an old man (Count Dooku/Darth Tyrannus) showed him up, even if that old man IS Christopher Lee.

* I can accept that Artoo and Threepio don't remember any of the events in the prequels, as they can have memory wipes (though Artoo may remember since nobody can fucking understand him anyway and he's a devious little shit), but I CANNOT ACCEPT that nobody else remembers them. I've heard the whole "Droids are as commonplace as toasters and no one would remember them" argument before, but these two droids presided at Anakin and Padme's FUCKING WEDDING. I would THINK they might remember that. Oh, sure, Darth Vader may be having some huge internal monologue on Cloud City about how he remembers building that droid (a protocol droid for his mother?? why the fuck would he have made his mother a DIPLOMAT with dainty hands that can't even use tools??), but since the audience doesn't KNOW about it, it doesn't do us a lick of good. That little connection between characters is utterly pointless and serves no purpose except for giving fans a reason to give a knowing wink and nod when they see something they recognize on the screen.

* Midichlorians COMPLETELY remove the mysticism from the Force. I don't care if they were there the whole time or not, I didn't want to know about it. The old trilogy was science fantasy, the new ones are unmistakably science fiction.

* For all of Yoda's talk in TESB about how weapons were pretty much unnecessary if you were badass enough with the Force, he sure as hell throws all that out the window to give the audience a bunch of CGI eye candy. I would have been MUCH more satisfied if Yoda had just dropped the ceiling on Darth Tyrannus or something. It would have been more in-character.

* There is NO logical reason to include Chewbacca into ANY of the prequels. To do so is contrived bullshit. A cameo MIGHT be acceptable, but if he delivers Luke and Leia as Padme's midwife, that might just be the lamest thing EVER.

* Why exactly were the Seperatists in "Attack of the Clones" seperating in the first place? Why do I get the feeling we're never going to hear more about that little story?

* A four-year old child could see through Palpatine's clumsy, ham-fisted machinations. And yet the Jedi and ALL OF THE SENATE could not.

* Yoda and Mace Windu talk about how they have a really bad feeling about Anakin, Yoda says there is a great darkness surrounding him...then they both just sort of shrug and move on with whatever they were doing.

* Anakin was NOT a great warrior when Obi-Wan met him, as he said in "A New Hope".

* Whatever happened to all those alien races that seem to be quite prevalent in Episodes I and II? Even on Tattooine, we see a lot of new and different aliens that we never see again. On Tattooine. I realize that this is a problem when you create a series of movies out of order, but it makes suspending my disbelief awfully difficult. I can accept that SOMETHING horrible probably happens to Naboo in Episode 3, otherwise it's pretty insane that we never hear of it or the Gungans again.

* That "cutesy" scene in AOTC with Yoda and all the Jedi children makes me want to punch somebody.

* The Jedi, to put it plainly, suck. All they ever do is sit around on their little chairs and get their asses kicked by assembly line robots.

There's a LOT more I could go on about, and I'll probably add to this thread as I think of them. The point is, I DO enjoy the prequels on SOME basic level, they are good eye candy for the most part, but the story is weak, clumsy, sloppy, and it does NOT cleanly fit into the overall whole. I still enjoy the old movies, but these new ones are so riddled with flaws it is a lot more difficult to just sit back and enjoy them. ESPECIALLY when you try to take them into context with Episodes 4, 5, and 6.
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Old Jul 14th, 2003, 11:46 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
And Zero, have you been to http://www.stardestroyer.net ? I think you'd like it.
Interesting, indeed. They bring this up when talking about the ion cannons:

"Also of interest is the fact that the ship has already been hit by a powerful ion bolt that defeated the shields; but this second bolt is meeting resistance as well. This must indicate that ISDs have either isolated or redundant shield systems. Perhaps the conning tower has its own dedicated shield system?"

I thought this was made clear when one of the Executor's shield generators is destroyed during the battle at Endor, and one of the officers tells Admiral Piett that the bridge deflector shields are down.

:/

"Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want anything to get through."

"INTENSIFY FORWARD FIREPOWER!!"

"Too late!"



Ubergeekdom, indeed. heh
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 12:06 AM       
Here, here.

I agree with all o' that except for Boba Fett being knocked out by a blind man with a stick. Never read about that. I don't think. It's not really bad ass that he had help escaping the Sarlaac, (which i misspelled terribly, several times) but the fact remains that he escaped in the first place. Who else in the galaxy is going to get out of a monster lined with razor sharp, downward pointing teeth? I wish now, though, that he had just been burned to death by that thing. And yeah, most of the books are shit, that's why i only read four or five of them. :/
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 12:14 AM       
Uhh, did you not even see ROTJ? Han spins around and he falls into the pit.
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 12:34 AM       
He didn't die there. Or are we talking just exclusively about the movies?
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 12:36 AM       
Yeah, Han was blind, and he had a stick. And he accidentally killed Boba Fett.

I'm talking about just the movies, because the books aren't canon. In fact, most of them are shite.
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 12:53 AM       
Boba was great because we don't even get to know his name until the last movie. At least, I don't think that his actual name was mentioned in Empire, anyways. :/

Another one of his lines was, "He's no good to me if he's dead."

Quote:
I thought this was made clear when one of the Executor's shield generators is destroyed during the battle at Endor, and one of the officers tells Admiral Piett that the bridge deflector shields are down.

"Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want anything to get through."

"INTENSIFY FORWARD FIREPOWER!!"

"Too late!"
I'm confused by your comments, Zero. It was always my understanding that since the shields were down, they increased their firepower to have a greater chance of blowing up stuff before it got close to the ship. :/

Of course, it's late right now, and my brain isn't working properly.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 01:12 AM       
On the whole "blind man with a stick"- IIRC, George Patton died rather uncerimoniously when a drunk driver plowed him. I certainly don't think that takes away from his "badass" image.

But, I do agree that Ep2 and ANHSE took away from his image (even if they can be explained away).

Quote:
because the books aren't canon
They are official. They are cannon except when the movies contradict them (which has happened a lot in the last 2). The only ones that aren't referenced are the anthologies.

Quote:
In fact, most of them are shite.
Doesn't mean they aren't official. Hell, your standards disqualifies the vast majority of Star Trek movies and tv from any arguments.

Quote:
Yeah, it's really cool that Dengar helped him out after he escaped the Sarlaac.
In Tales of the Bounty Hunter (an anthology BTW), Fett gets himself out. Dengar showed up and got him medical attention to repay him for the mercy Fett showed him.


Quote:
And then Boba Fett was the best man at Dengar's wedding. Yeah, that's just awesome.
OK, that was crap.

Quote:
Oh, and then there's the fact that a naked Princess Leia was thrown into Boba Fett's quarters in Jabba's Palace, so Boba Fett, being a hardcore proponant of JUSTICE, covered her with a blanket and gave her his bunk, while he slept on the floor. What a great guy!
What does that have to do with justice? Chivalry ya, but we aren't talking about that. You wanted him to rape her? That would be a crime.

Quote:
I love how the special edition of ROTJ pretty much negates all of that shit about Boba Fett being this really moralistic guy by having him macking on the scummy dancing chicks.
So, flirting with a girl at a bar makes you an immoral heathen? shit, guess I'm going to hell.

Quote:
* The love story between Anakin and Padme is fucking ludicrous ("you just slaughtered a bunch of women and children??? that's so hot! wanna fuck???")
They had both been raised in emotionally crippling enviorments. How well adjusted do you think they should be?

Quote:
* Darth Maul may have looked cool, but as a character, he sucked. And an old man (Count Dooku/Darth Tyrannus) showed him up, even if that old man IS Christopher Lee.
And a very powerful Jedi master, not an apprentice like Maul.

Quote:
* For all of Yoda's talk in TESB about how weapons were pretty much unnecessary if you were badass enough with the Force, he sure as hell throws all that out the window to give the audience a bunch of CGI eye candy. I would have been MUCH more satisfied if Yoda had just dropped the ceiling on Darth Tyrannus or something. It would have been more in-character.
Unless, him and Dukoo were going at each other with force powers. That could have really taken Yoda's concentration.

Quote:
Whatever happened to all those alien races that seem to be quite prevalent in Episodes I and II? Even on Tattooine, we see a lot of new and different aliens that we never see again. On Tattooine. I realize that this is a problem when you create a series of movies out of order, but it makes suspending my disbelief awfully difficult. I can accept that SOMETHING horrible probably happens to Naboo in Episode 3, otherwise it's pretty insane that we never hear of it or the Gungans again.
Palapatine was notoriuosly anti-nonhuman.

Shall I go on, or can I safely assume you are all bowing to my......


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Zero Signal Zero Signal is offline
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 01:32 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
Quote:
I thought this was made clear when one of the Executor's shield generators is destroyed during the battle at Endor, and one of the officers tells Admiral Piett that the bridge deflector shields are down.

"Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want anything to get through."

"INTENSIFY FORWARD FIREPOWER!!"

"Too late!"
I'm confused by your comments, Zero. It was always my understanding that since the shields were down, they increased their firepower to have a greater chance of blowing up stuff before it got close to the ship. :/

Of course, it's late right now, and my brain isn't working properly.
What are you confused about? I was just wondering why, in that quote I posted above from that site that Blanco linked to, they were posing the question regarding whether Star Destroyers have separate shielding for different sections. I stated that I thought it was made evident with the Executor when the two A-Wings take out one of the deflector towers and one of Piett's officers immediately tells him that the bridge deflector shield is down.
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 02:20 AM       
It's not like your point and his contradict each other. Aren't you reaching the same conclusion?

And you gotta love the tactical analysis and the hate mail sections.
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 08:36 AM       
Proto, you rock...

I guess other than the contradictions and the outright suck-factor of the prequels (all the stuff you mentioned), the main thing is that they don't add anything to the story. It seems like Lucas is more interested in connecting the trilogies with tidbits like Anakin building 3PO and cameos, than actually focusing on a good story. And it seems like he's definitely created more inconsistencies.

It's like the special editions of the first trilogies. He said that he wanted to do all the things that he couldn't do due to technology at the time of the films' releases... but what did he add? Han shooting Greedo in self defense, a useless scene with Jabba where he says basically the same thing that Greedo did, and a couple of Jawas screaming "Utadie!" He's just full of shit.
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 12:43 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
On the whole "blind man with a stick"- IIRC, George Patton died rather uncerimoniously when a drunk driver plowed him. I certainly don't think that takes away from his "badass" image.
I see your point, but this is fiction we're talking about here, where everything happens by the author's design. I would expect a more satisfying end for a character who is supposed to be such a badass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
because the books aren't canon
They are official. They are cannon except when the movies contradict them (which has happened a lot in the last 2). The only ones that aren't referenced are the anthologies.
They may be "official", but George Lucas shows them no regard whatsoever with the way he contradicts the shit out of them in the movies. So how much weight should we really be giving them? Although, to be fair, Lucas has shown an equal amount of disregard as far as the contradictions with the old MOVIES goes, so hell, maybe we should give them the same weight as the films.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
[
Quote:
In fact, most of them are shite.
Doesn't mean they aren't official. Hell, your standards disqualifies the vast majority of Star Trek movies and tv from any arguments.
I don't really see why you mention this. Yes, I agree, most of the Star Trek stuff sucks. But what does that have to do with ANYTHING?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
Yeah, it's really cool that Dengar helped him out after he escaped the Sarlaac.
In Tales of the Bounty Hunter (an anthology BTW), Fett gets himself out. Dengar showed up and got him medical attention to repay him for the mercy Fett showed him.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't that pretty much EXACTLY WHAT I SAID? That's the exact story I was referring to. (Also, that book sucked, not a single good story in the bunch...the IG-88 one was particularly laughable)

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
Oh, and then there's the fact that a naked Princess Leia was thrown into Boba Fett's quarters in Jabba's Palace, so Boba Fett, being a hardcore proponant of JUSTICE, covered her with a blanket and gave her his bunk, while he slept on the floor. What a great guy!
What does that have to do with justice? Chivalry ya, but we aren't talking about that. You wanted him to rape her? That would be a crime.
Yeah, and it would have been more realistic. I can't swallow all that "I love justice" bullshit. He certainly doesn't act that way in the movies, even if you look at the original trilogy. Working for the most evil son of a bitch in the galaxy, fraternizing with KNOWN criminals, gangsters even. Boba Fett is scum, not some heroic lawman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
I love how the special edition of ROTJ pretty much negates all of that shit about Boba Fett being this really moralistic guy by having him macking on the scummy dancing chicks.
So, flirting with a girl at a bar makes you an immoral heathen? shit, guess I'm going to hell.
No, but it certainly reinforces the scummy persona that was already there. The books tried to paint him as this noble lawman whose ONLY concern was his obsession with justice. I got the impression that he felt he was above "cheap sex" in the books. The ROTJ:SE portrays him as a guy who likes to party with CRIMINALS and PIRATES and get himself some pussy on his time off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
* The love story between Anakin and Padme is fucking ludicrous ("you just slaughtered a bunch of women and children??? that's so hot! wanna fuck???")
They had both been raised in emotionally crippling enviorments. How well adjusted do you think they should be?
Please. It's still absolutely ludicrous. "No, Annie, we can't be together, it just won't work. No! Absolutely not! I'm serious! We can't even be seen together! What's that? You killed a bunch of women and children? Well, maybe we can get together after all. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
* Darth Maul may have looked cool, but as a character, he sucked. And an old man (Count Dooku/Darth Tyrannus) showed him up, even if that old man IS Christopher Lee.
And a very powerful Jedi master, not an apprentice like Maul.
They both have the same title, "Darth", which I believe denotes their rank. Maul may have been relatively inexperienced, but I believe he was still a master. In the same sense that while Darth Vader was a master, he was still Palpatine's apprentice simply by virtue of his being Palpy's bitch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
Whatever happened to all those alien races that seem to be quite prevalent in Episodes I and II? Even on Tattooine, we see a lot of new and different aliens that we never see again. On Tattooine. I realize that this is a problem when you create a series of movies out of order, but it makes suspending my disbelief awfully difficult. I can accept that SOMETHING horrible probably happens to Naboo in Episode 3, otherwise it's pretty insane that we never hear of it or the Gungans again.
Palapatine was notoriuosly anti-nonhuman.
Riiiight, so he magically exterminated entire SPECIES of aliens who were widely spread throughout the galaxy? Wow, talk about thorough.
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Old Jul 15th, 2003, 01:29 PM       
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What are you confused about? I was just wondering why, in that quote I posted above from that site that Blanco linked to, they were posing the question regarding whether Star Destroyers have separate shielding for different sections. I stated that I thought it was made evident with the Executor when the two A-Wings take out one of the deflector towers and one of Piett's officers immediately tells him that the bridge deflector shield is down.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jul 16th, 2003, 01:46 AM       
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Riiiight, so he magically exterminated entire SPECIES of aliens who were widely spread throughout the galaxy? Wow, talk about thorough.
Just exactly how many planets and charecters were seen in the original trilogy? Not many when you think about it.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Jul 16th, 2003, 12:33 PM       
So all the aliens we see all over the place in Tattooine in Episodes I and II either left altogether or were completely wiped out?

I realize it's possible that there just weren't any dugs in the cantina that fateful day when Obi-Wan and Luke showed up, but still...it's just one of those things that makes it a little harder to swallow.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jul 16th, 2003, 01:37 PM       
So, there wasn't a rich variety of aliens in the cantina or Jabba's palace? Are we talking about the same Star Wars?
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