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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 03:30 PM        Capital Punishment: Raven, this one's for you.
In keeping with the "Death" theme that is running rampant at the moment, I would like to ask everyone for their opinions on the Death Penalty. I myself think the death penalty is a good thing, and all those that think it isn't are too soft on criminals. I will await responses before I give you my reasons.

Go ahead, tell me what you think.
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FS FS is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 04:35 PM       
Until the guilt of a prisoner on death row can be assured 100%, I find it immoral.
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 04:39 PM       
I'd rather get death than life, noway I'd want to get my anus pillaged for the rest of my life. Death is by far favoring the prisoner.
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GAsux GAsux is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 04:53 PM        What if...
What if you discovered you were fond of having your anus pillaged? Then prison would actually be a bit of a blessing wouldnt it?
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O71394658 O71394658 is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 06:09 PM       
I'm against the death penalty. I'm tired, but I'll throw my bit in if the argument gets goin'...
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 08:35 PM       
I am very much against the death penalty. It's more costly to kill one prisoner than to keep them imprisoned for life, and studies have shown that it is no deterrent to violent crime.

We discussed this topic at length rather recently, but I can't seem to find the thread. I'm pretty positive it was a multi-page thing, and Punkgirrlie and I changed the mind of this one guy who was all about the death penalty. If anyone can find that thread, please post it here.
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Zero Signal Zero Signal is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 09:09 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoclown
I am very much against the death penalty. It's more costly to kill one prisoner than to keep them imprisoned for life, and studies have shown that it is no deterrent to violent crime.
So you are telling me that it costs over half a million dollars to execute someone? Bullshit.
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 11:06 PM       
My thing is that people are always saying that prison is worse for the prisoner because they have to live with what they did. That is complete bull. In the case of serial killers and just plain psychos, they HAVE no concience, and therefor, they will NOT feel guilty about their choices.

I think, personally, that the death penalty should be the same as whatever the killer did to his victims. If a person killed someone by cementing their feet and dropping them in a river, then their punishment should be to be drowned. I know that seems like "cruel and unusual punishment", but we are TOO LENIENT on prsoners nowadays, and the killers didn't seem to think that it was "cruel and unusual" when they did it to other people.

Prison is not punishment. They get 3 square meals a day, they have recreational activities every day, and they have cable. If it weren't for the fact that a lot of them got corn-holed every day they probably wouldn't view it as punishment, either. That shit about it costing more to kill a prisoner than to keep them alive, I don't know what your sources are, but get new ones. Over half a million dollars to keep ONE prisoner alive, or half a million dollars to send electricity through the bodies of a LOT MORE. I would rather spend the same amount of money an killing a lot of those scumbags than keep one single killer alive.

Live and let live; Kill and be killed. Simple as that.
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 11:41 PM       
I can understand how a social structure has to maintain and enforce it's moral and ethical codes in order to function, but the death penalty is taking this too far. My own morality holds the value of a single life to be infinitely greater than the prosperity of millions. The ends never justify the means.


Quote:
Live and let live; Kill and be killed. Simple as that.
Would you believe it possible that a criminal is the product of the society that provided for him? And that it turn, in order to not have violent criminals society should take essential steps towards it's betterment in many aspects? Do you think that frying people, by-the-book, no less, is a step towards this direction?
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Jun 20th, 2003, 12:25 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Signal
So you are telling me that it costs over half a million dollars to execute someone? Bullshit.
Zero, I'm afraid it's not bullshit at all. It's mostly because of all the court appeals and fees and whatnot. Lot of red tape.

Check out any of these links for more info. It's the sad truth that killing someone within the confines of our legal system costs more than providing for their well-being for a lifetime:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html

http://www.thenation.com/deathrow/

http://www.bushkills.com/facts.html

http://www.vadp.org/info.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortal Goat
My thing is that people are always saying that prison is worse for the prisoner because they have to live with what they did. That is complete bull. In the case of serial killers and just plain psychos, they HAVE no concience, and therefor, they will NOT feel guilty about their choices.
Prison isn't solely about rehabilitation, it's also about punishment. You're right, some people just can't be rehabilitated. Several studies have shown (and I'll be glad to dig up data, if you like, I'm just recalling stuff from my criminology class right now) that the death penalty is NOT a deterrent to violent crime at all.

Consider this: most murders are crimes of passion. Ergo, the murderer killed quickly, in the heat of anger or hate or whatever powerful emotion drove them to it, without forethought or planning. The consequences of one's actions are not even considered in such instances. Most of the rest are murders that were premeditated, and those are often done by pyschotic individuals who have no regard for human life at all, including their own. They are not afraid of death, in fact, many of them desire it, but are unwilling to act out their wishes for whatever reason. Have you ever heard of the "suicide by cop" phenomenon?

So, so far we have A) the death penalty is more expensive and B) the death penalty is not an effective deterrent to violent crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortal Goat
I think, personally, that the death penalty should be the same as whatever the killer did to his victims. If a person killed someone by cementing their feet and dropping them in a river, then their punishment should be to be drowned. I know that seems like "cruel and unusual punishment", but we are TOO LENIENT on prsoners nowadays, and the killers didn't seem to think that it was "cruel and unusual" when they did it to other people.
Personally, I find "an eye for an eye" to be a bit too savage for my taste. What does that say about our supposedly "civilized" society, when we endorse murder sanctioned under the law?

It is pretty much agreed upon that innocent people have been put to death in this country for crimes they did not commit. A falsely convicted person's prison term can be overturned, and while the innocent person's time will be gone forever, at least they will have their life. You can't correct such a wrong if new evidence comes to light and the person is already dead. Is it really worth it? How many innocent people put to death is too many? For me, that answer is simple. One.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortal Goat
Prison is not punishment. They get 3 square meals a day, they have recreational activities every day, and they have cable. If it weren't for the fact that a lot of them got corn-holed every day they probably wouldn't view it as punishment, either.
The way you talk, it almost sounds as if you wouldn't mind being there yourself. Would you like to go to prison? If you could sign up for a "prisoner exchange program" of some sort, would you? I guaranfuckingtee you that if you were in prison, you would feel like it was ample punishment. Think about the freedom you have that is so easy to take for granted. And then try to imagine not having it. I'm not sympathizing with criminals here, they get their just desserts, but I think prison is a pretty fitting punishment. I doubt you'll find many prisoners who consider it a "Fun Slumber Camp of Jollies".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortal Goat
That shit about it costing more to kill a prisoner than to keep them alive, I don't know what your sources are, but get new ones. Over half a million dollars to keep ONE prisoner alive, or half a million dollars to send electricity through the bodies of a LOT MORE. I would rather spend the same amount of money an killing a lot of those scumbags than keep one single killer alive.
Incorrect. Check my links above and you will see otherwise. I think I have posted enough sources to illustrate the point with credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortal Goat
Live and let live; Kill and be killed. Simple as that.
Careful. Now you're just sounding like Vince in that last part.
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 20th, 2003, 01:29 AM       
Proto is correct in that it costs an extravegent amount to execute prisoners. This is because of the large quanity of free appeals they receive. That actually cost of killing them isn't all that outrageous.

As such I believe a form of hard labor would be far more beneficial than the use of the death penalty. But we do not utilize such methods as such I do support the death penalty as the current harshest form of deterrent. And it is a deterrent, merely not as effective as the conviction of murder. For all things are variables in our "decisions". And if this was an attempt to bring into a contradiction, let me state that no contradiction exists. Once a criminal is convicted to death by a panel of their peers, which is required by all states to the best of my knowledge, they have a forfeited right to life. This forfeited right to life is only allowed upon the exact date and time of the designated execution, and during the proceedure. Hope that answered your questions properly.
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Old Jun 20th, 2003, 09:41 AM       
Costs to me are not an issue. I'm not concerned with the cost argument because I don't believe that any aspect of this question shoul be economically determined. No matter any cost or conception of crime, punishment and rehabilitation the fundamental point is the purpose the death penalty serves. The main issue for me is the loss of innocent life, if you murder one innocent (taking all guilty as a nil value) then the death penalty will raise the aggregate murder rate. And there is no way to ensure you "get the right guy". Options.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Jun 20th, 2003, 01:55 PM       
I agree that the financial aspect of it is minor when considering the overall issue, but I do like to bring it up, because a lot of people don't know it, and it's so unbelievable that it really drives home the point of how absurd the whole thing is.
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 20th, 2003, 03:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Protoclown
Prison isn't solely about rehabilitation, it's also about punishment. You're right, some people just can't be rehabilitated. Several studies have shown (and I'll be glad to dig up data, if you like, I'm just recalling stuff from my criminology class right now) that the death penalty is NOT a deterrent to violent crime at all.
I said nothing about rehabilitation. I don't care if the person is sorry or not. Sorry will not bring the victim back. And like I said, if someone doesn't feel sorry for what they did, then how will sitting in a jail cell seem like a just punishment. Prison is based on 2 ideas, in my opinion. #1, keeping scum off of our streets, and #2, making the prisoner rot from the inside out from his guilty conscience, and as I said, some of them HAVE NO CONSCIENCE! Maybe we need a more "cost-effective" system of execution, but that does not mean that we shouldn't have the death penalty at all.

Quote:
Careful. Now you're just sounding like Vince in that last part.
Now THAT is cruel and unusual punishment, Proto.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Jun 20th, 2003, 06:45 PM       
Forgive me, it was the fact that you ended your post with "Simple as that" which is pretty much right out of the book of Vincisms.

It's true that a killer feeling remorse over their crime will certainly not bring the victim back to life, but I still believe that in some cases redemption is possible, at least in the sense that the killer will make peace with god, the easter bunny, the spiders from mars, whatever, or perhaps even themselves before they die. And I believe in giving them that chance.

People make mistakes. To me, there is NO excuse for taking the life of another human being (which also encompases the death penalty), but people can change. A lot of people DO change in prison, they find religion or peace or whatever and have a total change of heart. I'm not saying they should get a "get out of jail free" card or anything, they should serve their punishment to its full term (which is often life, of course).

Plenty of others will never change, and would go right back out and start killing again, if they could. But the punishment of prison isn't about learning a moral lesson and having to deal with a guilty conscience, it's about having your FREEDOM taken away. Oh sure, you have three square meals a day and a bed, a roof over your head, and all that, which you seem to think is pampering them somehow. But if Mr. Knife Murderer wants to go to a baseball game? Too bad. Can't do it. Wants to see his son? Sorry, no visitors today. Maybe next week. Or what if he wants to go to 7-11 and buy a whole pack of smokes without trading his asshole for just one? Whether he has a guilty conscience or not is irrelevant. I guarantee you he recognizes that he's punished, whether he agrees the punishment is appropriate or not.

And then there is still the matter of innocent people being executed mistakenly. How many mistakes are you willing to accept? How many INNOCENT PEOPLE are you willing to condone the deaths of?

Capital punishment is savage and outdated.
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Old Jun 20th, 2003, 07:37 PM       
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Originally Posted by Immortal Goat
I said nothing about rehabilitation. I don't care if the person is sorry or not. Sorry will not bring the victim back.
Neither will killing the murderer. I'm not seeing much in your point of view other than that you want to punish the killer with the eye for an eye mentality.

I think you have a somewhat compact view of all killers as savage beasts. You're sweeping psychopaths in one corner with people who may have killed in the heat of the moment and not only regret what they've done, but can function quite normal and healthy in society if they're released. Murder is an atrocious crime, but killing another person doesn't take as much malice as might seem.

I'm curious, what's your stance on innocents that end up on the electric chair? Do you consider it a necessary evil or a negligible minority?
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Old Jun 21st, 2003, 06:24 AM       
All the arguments are valid, and through and through, even after hearing all of them, I still find myself pro-death penalty.

I look at it this way.

Even without the benefit of being religious, I find life to be sacred. In fact, the afterlife is even scarier if you DON'T have a religion. Think about it... would you rather spend an eternity in Hell, or simply NOT EXIST? Body in the ground, that's it? The way I look at it, the thought of nonexistance is far more frightening than Hell. You may be suffering, but at least you EXIST.

With that in mind, if someone is more than willing to put someone into this kind of situation, they should be ready to pay for it with their lives. From a certain way of looking at it (not personal opinion, btw) it's almost like condemning one form of murder while condoning another.

What you're saying fundamentally, in this scenario, is that for taking the most precious of gifts from someone, you shouldn't have to forfeit your own. That would make the very LAW hypocritical, after all, if you steal something else, do you not lose a priviledge (FREEDOM... you're going to Pound Me In The Ass Prison) as a consequence?

I can see where in certain cases, the imminent coming of death still would not be a deterrent, and I'd like to get into the string of thought that brings up (my support of euthanasia... if you want to die, you should be allowed to) but that's not the point.

My point is... bear with me...

Hypothetically speaking, if some super country came out of nowhere, started obliterating US civilians, businesses, and the like, and threatened our freedom and our very lives and ways of life, we would more than throw our support into the government in the form of tax money to go straight to the army to kill off the murderous menace.

If it happens on a much smaller scale though, and Buffalo Bill kills little Susie Jenkins or something, it's suddenly immoral to put HIM to death, although fundamentally, it's the same thing.

THAT is why I support the death penalty. I hope it makes sense, it IS 5 in the morning and I haven't slept since I got off work :/
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FS FS is offline
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Old Jun 21st, 2003, 06:59 AM       
Flawed argument. When an entire nation is threatening you you don't have time to apprehend them one at a time and give them a fair trial, just as much as you don't have time to call the police when a psychopath is trying to stab you before you can shoot him.

Besides, in the 'ideal' war situation, the opposing party's leadership is smashed first to minimize casualties.
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Helm Helm is offline
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Old Jun 21st, 2003, 12:51 PM       
FS is right.
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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 21st, 2003, 01:13 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoclown
We discussed this topic at length rather recently, but I can't seem to find the thread. I'm pretty positive it was a multi-page thing, and Punkgirrlie and I changed the mind of this one guy who was all about the death penalty. If anyone can find that thread, please post it here.
I think that I remember that thread. Problem is that I don't think the thread started off with "capital punishment" as the subject matter. That's probably why you're having trouble locating it.
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