The "Road Map"

[VinceZeb]

ABCD, don't point that out EVER AGAIN! The Palestinians are a nice, cheery, hardworking folk that have never done anything wrong ever and were there for 10,000 years before the evil Jews came in and took their land and are slaughtering their people left and right!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

“The truce between Israel and the Palestinians seems to be holding, DESPITE TWO ATTACKS by militants today.”

Last I heard saying "We won't kill your people if you give us what we want" was an unaccaptable form of blackmail.

Heh, it's funny. Steps are actually being taken to make this a viable peace plan, and the only people you can find yourself in agreement with ABC are the very same militants who wantto ruin the process. Good company...?

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

ABCD, don't point that out EVER AGAIN! The Palestinians are a nice, cheery, hardworking folk that have never done anything wrong ever and were there for 10,000 years before the evil Jews came in and took their land and are slaughtering their people left and right!

It's really entertaining to watch you try. You're like the little kid who just had the training wheels removed from his Huffy bicycle, and now he's trying to ride on two wheels. Ride, Vince, ride!

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore

Heh, it's funny. Steps are actually being taken to make this a viable peace plan, and the only people you can find yourself in agreement with ABC are the very same militants who wantto ruin the process. Good company...?

Eh ? Viable for who?

I'd much rather respond to your OTHER nonesense post... but just quickly... for those who aren't keeping score...the only concession the Palestinians have offered is a figurative three month promise of a cease fire so filled with loopholes, it excludes several militant groups AND HAS BEEN BREACHED. How many promises of a cease fire have the Palestinians agreed to and breached? ALL OF THEM. It's meaningless.


I want the kind of peace where a cease fire has meaning. Isn't that the kind of peace you want, Kevin? Am I wrong? When have the Palestinians ever met the requirements of their own cease fire decrees?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

I'd much rather respond to your OTHER nonesense post...

Then please do. I've read too many "college books" that have instilled me with anti-semitic thoughts, and I'm in need of an "expert's" clarification.

but just quickly... for those who aren't keeping score...the only concession the Palestinians have offered is a figurative three month promise of a cease fire so filled with loopholes, it excludes several militant groups AND HAS BEEN BREACHED. How many promises of a cease fire have the Palestinians agreed to and breached? ALL OF THEM. It's meaningless.

It has been breached because they don't want peace and stability, which is something I'm willing to bet most Palestinians in fact do want.

I want the kind of peace where a cease fire has meaning. Isn't that the kind of peace you want, Kevin? Am I wrong? When have the Palestinians ever met the requirements of their own cease fire decrees?

You are looking at an established state, with established laws, institutions, and bureacracy, who have a trained standing army, going up against a non-state of people clumped together. No real order, no real law, no real stability in their lives. If an Israeli breaks the law, steals a car, shoots a civilian, there is a code of law which to punish him/her by. The Palestinians don't have this, but they want this. Trying to control the actions of a militant is like Hamid Karzai trying to control Afghanistan with the few thousand poorly trained soldiers he has against the warlords. It is difficult at best, if not impossible.

On your question of viability, I see ANYTHING as progress between these two factions. If the cease fire fails, and the peace plan falls through, then it's back to the drawing board. It's the only option, to keep working, keep open dialogue, and to keep trying.

What would you propose? Palestinians stop hating Jews? Palestinians stop wanting their land back? Palestinians stop not approving of check points and settlements? What you want is fiction, and can only lead to further stagnation and conflict. You want war.

[VinceZeb]

I hate to have to bring up history again, but the "Palestinians" have no legitmate claim to that land. Israel is being nice by letting them say they should have land.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Under your logic Vince, an American who calls himself an "Israeli" because his mother happens to be Jewish has no more of a claim to that land than a Jordanian who now calls himself "Palestinian".

Expand upon your argument Vince, because it has no validity. Is your citation the Old Testament, Vince? Certainly there were the Old Yishuv had lived there, and in my opinion Jews can make claim to that land, just not sole claim.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Jews can make claim to that land, just not sole claim."

If you're suggesting the majority of Jews do make sole claim to the land then you're backwards. The mosques are highly respected,.

Aren't Palestinian Arabs the ones making a sole claim to holy sites, and requesting the actual removal of Jews from land? Haven't they been the ones digging under the Temple Mount encouraging it's collapse, and desecrating religious tombs? Prior to Israel the wailing wall was used as a toilet. Christian holy sites were inaccesible. There was no respect for archealogical history or the freedom of other cultures. The Palestinian movement makes sole claim and demands the removal of all Jews from Gaza and the West Bank. I've never heard of any mainstream movement to remove the Arabs of Haifa, or Tel Aviv. Certainly not one that's ever made it's way to the bargaining table.


"If an Israeli breaks the law, steals a car, shoots a civilian, there is a code of law which to punish him/her by. The Palestinians don't have this, but they want this"

Huh? Palestinians seceded from Israel and became an autonomous body with an interim self government, it's own CIA trained police force, and legal system. Hey it's a shitty one, but it's theirs. If they have the ability to offer a cease fire as a bargaining chip, they should have the ability to hold forth to it, dontcha think? Unlike Hamid Karzai, the PA pulls the purse strings for all these so called "militants", and all roads lead back to the government. The chaos is organized, and controlled. if they can string up those caught collaborating with Israel crucifiction style , they could in theory take the same hardline stance against "militants" right?

From the CIA factbook:

The Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (the DOP), signed in Washington on 13 September 1993, provided for a transitional period not exceeding five years of Palestinian interim self-government in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Under the DOP, Israel agreed to transfer certain powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, which includes the Palestinian Legislative Council elected in January 1996, as part of the interim self-governing arrangements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994 Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area and in additional areas of the West Bank pursuant to the Israel-PLO 28 September 1995 Interim Agreement, the Israel-PLO 15 January 1997 Protocol Concerning Redeployment in Hebron, the Israel-PLO 23 October 1998 Wye River Memorandum, and the 4 September 1999 Sharm el-Sheikh Agreement.


"On your question of viability, I see ANYTHING as progress between these two factions. "

Really? So how is the potential release of mass murderers going to further peace? Or continuance of violence after a declared cease fire? PEACE!!! A word meaning: harmonius relations, security and order, and the absence of war or other hostilities. Progress doesn't mean things aren't getting progressively worse.

"What you want is fiction, and can only lead to further stagnation and conflict. You want war."

My Perception of the continued violence as an act of war doesn't mean It's something I "want". It's already is a war, and one side has it's arms tied while the other keeps taking cheap shots.

Feel free to justify your above statement somehow otherwise you're just pigeon holding anyone who fully supports Israel as war mongering, and that's just antisemetic. It's antisemetic because your talking about Jews with a double standard, along with a biased and unproven accusation of exclusionary behavior towards non-Jews that plays into old blood libels. I want coexistance. I've said this many times. I'm sure it's easier to debate me when you're telling me what I'm supposed to think but try reading my words and work from there instead. Coexistance.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

I hate to have to bring up history again, but the "Palestinians" have no legitmate claim to that land.

No man has a legitimate claim to any land, save what he can acquire through bribery, threats, or mutual law (which is really just more bribery and threats - especially between people of contrary faiths).

Who has the right to say what country can exist where, and what ethnicities it should be comprised of? It's a sad affair.