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  #51  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 12:22 AM       
El Corpo? I'll admit to not pounding the weights like I used to, but "El Corpo"? I'm not that overweight.

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you suggesting that business is doing the right thing when they drop billions of dollars into polititians pockets?
Where did they get their money in the first place?

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you are blaming the victims for the problems we face
If you put a gun in your hand a pull the trigger, I won't get mad at the guys cleaning the carpet.
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  #52  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 12:24 AM       
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Originally Posted by The One and Only...

I never suggested people would get cancer for no apparent reason. Where did this comment come from?
Kevin the Herbivore said it.
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  #53  
Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 12:39 AM       
You're clouding the subject, Mr. I forgot your name already.

Let's say we restrict campaign contributions to only actual citizens... no double eligibility for folks that can contribute as corporations and such... what's your view on how to do Healthcare?

And to the other one that interrupted to mention a flat tax... What's the appeal over a consumption tax?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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  #54  
Carnivore Carnivore is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 12:54 AM       
Healthcare expenditures would plummet if EMTs and paramedics were allowed to refuse to transport patients.
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  #55  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 01:00 AM       
Based on what? I may be tough, but I don't want paramedics making sure little old ladies are insured before they start prepping them after a heart attack.
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  #56  
Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 07:55 AM       
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Democracy and socialism are fairly similar, which is what I said. Not exactly the same, but they have some things in common.

Sorry to butt in....... Socilaism IS Democracy.

Trotsky said: "Socialism needs Democracy like the human body needs oxygen."

And: "Socialism is Democracy or it is nothing."

This is the reason why there are no Socialist countries at the moment, and no real Democracy either.

:/


Free health care? Yeah!
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  #57  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 09:15 AM       
For the people that think the government could do health care well: Wow. If you do not realize that government will fuck up a 2 car funeral, then there is something wrong with you.

It is not the government's job to be "fair", "compassionate", or "kind". Our US government is supposed to protect the rights of the citizens, to protect our borders, and to help the country in dire situations. Granny Jones wanting to go to her bingo games every wed and fri instead of paying for her medicine out of her pocket is not my view of a "dire" situation.

If the government starts dolling out free medicine, medicine prices will rise becuase people will start demanding whatever they want, becuase they do not "pay" for it.

I mean, where the fuck did personal responability go in this country? Many of us choose not to have health insurance just because they do not want it. We would make and keep more money on average if we could get the money our employeer would pay for our health coverage and then we would go out and look for our own insurance.

Healthcare is not a right. Sorry, folks, but you have the "right" of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness and property. Those are the rights you are born with. Healthcare, no matter how much the Hildabeast sits there and screams about it, is not something you should have for being human. Our ancestors didn't, so why the fuck should it be required for me?

Nice little quote from Professor Gary Galles of Pepperdine University

“How can there possibly be liberty and justice for all, when, in the name of justice, people claim rights to income, food, housing, education, health care, transportation, ad infinitum? We can't. Positive rights to receive such things, absent an obligation to earn them, must violate others' liberty, by taking some of their income without their consent. They are really just wishes, convertible into benefits for some only by employing the government to violate others' rights not to have what is theirs taken."
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  #58  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 10:01 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
For the people that think the government could do health care well: Wow. If you do not realize that government will fuck up a 2 car funeral, then there is something wrong with you.
As this is an opinion, I have no need to address it.

Quote:
It is not the government's job to be "fair", "compassionate", or "kind". Our US government is supposed to protect the rights of the citizens, to protect our borders, and to help the country in dire situations. Granny Jones wanting to go to her bingo games every wed and fri instead of paying for her medicine out of her pocket is not my view of a "dire" situation.
The government's jobs are varied. Healthcare could easily be adopted to fit under one of it's priorities. Futhermore, if Granny cannot pay for her medicine, or if it would take up all of her saving so that she could retire, it would have more drastic effects than just bingo night.

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If the government starts dolling out free medicine, medicine prices will rise because people will start demanding whatever they want, becuase they do not "pay" for it.
No. The government only pays for what you need - it doesn't pay for your vitamins and diet pills. Think of what insurance covers, and you'll probably get a similar list. A list somewhat bigger and full of absolutes (no you pay $10, they pay $50 stuff), but similar none-the-less.

Second, healthcare would not be free. As I have mentioned numerous times, it would be paid for by taxes.

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I mean, where the fuck did personal responability go in this country? Many of us choose not to have health insurance just because they do not want it. We would make and keep more money on average if we could get the money our employeer would pay for our health coverage and then we would go out and look for our own insurance.
It's still a responsibility, just a group one rather than individual. So I fail to see your point.

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Healthcare is not a right. Sorry, folks, but you have the "right" of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness and property. Those are the rights you are born with. Healthcare, no matter how much the Hildabeast sits there and screams about it, is not something you should have for being human. Our ancestors didn't, so why the fuck should it be required for me?
It doesn't have to be a right for it to be a more efficient system. My main argument is not for the poor, but that on the whole, it would be a cheaper system.

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Nice little quote from Professor Gary Galles of Pepperdine University

“How can there possibly be liberty and justice for all, when, in the name of justice, people claim rights to income, food, housing, education, health care, transportation, ad infinitum? We can't. Positive rights to receive such things, absent an obligation to earn them, must violate others' liberty, by taking some of their income without their consent. They are really just wishes, convertible into benefits for some only by employing the government to violate others' rights not to have what is theirs taken."
This isn't about rights. See my above point. If it's cheaper for you anyway, then I don't see the problem. If you don't pay for healthcare, you better pray you don't get in an accident. If you're a B.G. type person, a minor tax increase will not kill your business. In fact, you might make off like a bandit since you won't need to provide insurance for your employees.
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  #59  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 10:05 AM       
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Originally Posted by Preechr
And to the other one that interrupted to mention a flat tax... What's the appeal over a consumption tax?
It was a reply to your comment on taking money from the rich. With a consumption tax, an argument could be made that it would not be entirely fair. That is something I did not wish to delve into with this thread.
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  #60  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 10:36 AM       
Do you think taxes comes out of thin air? It comes from my pocket, your pocket, EVERYONES pocket who pays taxes. And the people who are most likely to take advantage of "free" medicine are people who a) can afford to pay for it themselves but choose not to and b) people WHO DON'T PAY IN TAXES!
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  #61  
Carnivore Carnivore is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 11:21 AM       
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Originally Posted by El Blanco
Based on what? I may be tough, but I don't want paramedics making sure little old ladies are insured before they start prepping them after a heart attack.
It has nothing to do with whether they are insured or not. It has to do with whether or not there is a genuine need for them to be transported by ambulance. Probably 40% of the people we transport do not need an ambulance and would be better off making an appointment with their PCP instead of going to the ER.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov
Sorry to butt in....... Socilaism IS Democracy.
I believe it was Max who pointed out at an earlier date that dictatorship and socialism are not mutually exclusive just as democracy and laissez faire capitalism are not mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Clambake
For the people that think the government could do health care well: Wow. If you do not realize that government will fuck up a 2 car funeral, then there is something wrong with you.
You're a moronic asshole. If the government was actually accountable for its actions, this would change. Too bad they're more worried about pissing off campaign contributors and corporations than voters.

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Originally Posted by Vinth
It is not the government's job to be "fair", "compassionate", or "kind". Our US government is supposed to protect the rights of the citizens, to protect our borders, and to help the country in dire situations.
Thank you for your opinion on the function of government. Duhhh... let me just check my pocket PC and see if I care about your ignorant opinion. Oh, look! I don't! Hehehehe

Some of us are willing to take it upon ourselves to ensure the well-being of our fellow human beings. Some of us are selfish, arrogant, ignorant pricks who, while claiming to be followers of the Christian faith, care nothing about the neighbors they are supposed to love as they love themselves.
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  #62  
kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 11:33 AM       
Before evolving into a wholesale socialism and make our government a larger bureaucracy than it already is, let's consider what a government supposed to be. Governments are supposed to regulate private enterprise, not take over their jobs. A little help is one thing, especially as a number of citizens have already paid into their right to this help, but total healthcare is a completely differenct issue. Why not consider changes to regulations that would limit the ridiculous price gouging in pharmacology and other forms of medical treatment? Implement more stringent laws for insurance fraud. Then maybe the insurance companies wouldn't be so fearful of their payouts and legitimate coverage may increase ... maybe even at a cheaper rate. Put a cap on the amount one can make from medical malpractice lawsuits or, at the very least, limit some of the frivilous lawsuits that are being heard. Then, perhaps, malpractice insurance may come down to a reasonable level so that medical profession wouldn't be so apprehensive in their treatment and may actually be able to stay in business charging customers reasonable rates for their services rendered. Although I'm not a big fan of private insurance, they ARE a business and I can see why they charge the way they do with the shape our healthcare system is in.
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  #63  
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 12:17 PM       
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
For the people that think the government could do health care well: Wow. If you do not realize that government will fuck up a 2 car funeral, then there is something wrong with you.
Or, if the government will hypothetically fuck up a two car funeral, maybe there's something wrong with the government. Apparently, this is the same government you turn to to "protect the rights of the citzens, to protect our borders, and to help the country in dire situations." Do you trust them not to fuck up in these matters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
If the government starts dolling out free medicine, medicine prices will rise becuase people will start demanding whatever they want, becuase they do not "pay" for it.
Now, I'm not a US resident, but you folks worth with doctor's prescriptions just as we do, right? Or can you just waltz into any pharmacist's and demand 400 doses of the most powerful painkiller they've got in stock? Free healthcare would not mean medicine is a free-for-all. You'd get your money back for the drugs that a doctor says, in writing, you need. Something against the common cold would be yours to pay for. If you'd want medicine usage down to put the prospective costs of free healthcare down, maybe it would be sensible to tell doctors not to throw around descriptions for painkillers and antidepressants like it's confetti. It's really not a healthy situation anymore when any kid before the age of 12 can name at least a dozen kinds of legal brain drugs. I am of course sketching a caricature of the situation here, but I do believe leashing doctors a little would do a lot to bring down overal medical costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Healthcare is not a right. Sorry, folks, but you have the "right" of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness and property. Those are the rights you are born with. Healthcare, no matter how much the Hildabeast sits there and screams about it, is not something you should have for being human. Our ancestors didn't, so why the fuck should it be required for me?
You also have the right to safety. To a certain degree, protection from physical harm, and the right to clean living conditions. Yes, to a certain extent, you have the right to good health. I'm not saying that the government needs to hold your hand and guide you through life as a bubble-boy. But healthcare in the hands of the government could make for a much more stable service than having it based on individuals. It's not rocket science. It's not a two car funeral. It's setting up a system that pays people back their legal prescriptions, or subsidizing pharmacists and hospitals (more). Your comment about ancestors is, as always, very amusing. Be sure to take down a bear for me this weekend, or there'll be no eatin'.
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  #64  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 01:09 PM       
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Do you think taxes comes out of thin air? It comes from my pocket, your pocket, EVERYONES pocket who pays taxes. And the people who are most likely to take advantage of "free" medicine are people who a) can afford to pay for it themselves but choose not to and b) people WHO DON'T PAY IN TAXES!
a) It depends on how well off they are. If they are a multi-billionare, then that minor tax increase to cover healthcare would cost them way more than it would otherwise. So it's really a losing situation.

b) If they don't pay taxes, they are most likely breaking the law. That carries problems in and of itself. The few people in the U.S. that don't have to pay taxes are just that: few. It not break the system.

One could also argue that people who don't pay taxes abuse the system with free education, etc. in which case the entire concept of taxes is unfair. I certainly hope you don't suggest we stop all governmental services.
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  #65  
Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 01:52 PM       
I'm gonna try to limit myself to the topic here. I REALLY want to address that whole Socialism IS Democracy thing-a-ma-bob, though...

*breathes in deeply*

*counts to ten*

Ok... Trying to keep this thing to actually arguable topics, I guess I shouldn't talk about things that may or may not happen in the future, as that is subjective. Let's nail down what we can as Fact by looking only at the present and the past...

Before, I said that it was a Fact that as government has gotten more and more involved in Healthcare, Heathcare has suffered. Somebody said that was my opinion about the future or something, but I meant that as an observation of where we are right now as compared to how things were before our American Socialist Revolution began.

These are always subjective comparisons, because we live in a totally different world now than America was in the 50s and 60s. I'll treat it as fairly as I can, though...

My statement is partially wrong on it's face. It's not just government interference that has screwed the Healthcare system up. It's also the things that the government HASN'T done that's making things worse. DC is so excited about getting their hands in the pie that they are ignoring the stuff they're actually required to do like making sure doctors can treat patients without getting their asses sued off.

Somebody mentioned the rediculous costs of Medical Malpractice Insurance. Did you guys know that doctors are the only private segment of workers in America that are not allowed to speak with a group voice? This is ostensibly because we don't want to experience the Healthcare strikes that plauge other countries (incidentally, doctors are striking primarily in countries with Socialized Healthcare...) The problem is, that's a trust contract, and the government has continually broken their end of the deal.

Anybody can sue anyone for anything, and most cases settle regardless of merit due to the exhorbitant costs of defending against even the most unsubstantiated claim. This is the primary factor behind what we see as price gouging for medical services. Basically the same thing happens to Pharmaceutical companies, driving up the prices of medication.

Here's an example: Any of you have pets? Chances are, at some point your Vet has given you some Benedryl for your pet to take, for whatever reason. Dogs and Cats can't sue, so the same damn Benedryl you would buy at the pharmacy for YOU is WAY cheaper when you buy it for your pet.

Hopefully, I'm not over-simplifying this. I can be more detailed if you wish... Basically the secondary point I'm making here is that it is the government's molly-coddling of lawyers and the law-trade that's helping to screw up Healthcare, NOT the system itself. The mandatory guarantee that no one can be turned away from a Hospital only encourages folks to go to the Emergency Room every time they get a freakin COLD, get treated for free, and sue the Hospital on a bogus charge of negligence... bah... This gets way too complicated way too fast....

Ok... Back to the future... Let's say you get your dream of Socialized Medicine to become a reality. The very first thing that is going to change will be your ability to sue for Malpractice. There's no way the government will even attempt to Manage Healthcare under the current rules that are savaging medical service and supplies providers. My question is: Why can't we just do this now?

I'll answer that! Government wants to control Healthcare. It is doing what it needs to do to make that happen.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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  #66  
Zosimus Zosimus is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 02:36 PM       
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Originally Posted by Preechr
For example: You, Zosimus. I think I called you a closet Capitalist once. Maybe I've yet to prove that to you, but I'm not done trying.
Knock yourself out trying to prove that point! In fact forget about the point...just knock yourself out period!
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  #67  
Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 03:11 PM       
AWWW!!! See, now you've hurt my feelings... I really thought we had a breakthrough there for a minute, too....

I'll rephrase myself then, since you seem to be taking what I said as offensive: I don't remember exactly what went on between you and Erik, but please don't let one guy get under your skin so much that you hate the whole community he rarely posts in. I don't know what it is exactly people see as the great challenge in pissing him off, but years upon years of dealing with that has taken its toll on his tolerance.

You seemed to have fun with your time on Anti, and I think you'd enjoy the Filter these days just as much. I actually won't be trying to complete your conversion over to Raging, Libertarian Capitalist here, but if you're interested in why I see that as possible, if not inevitable, or in how I plan to do so, please feel free to register over there and find your answers.

HAVE A NICE DAY.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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  #68  
AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 03:45 PM       
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Our ancestors didn't, so why the fuck should it be required for me?
Umm... I can show you many instances throughout history where our ancestors DIDN'T have life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness, Vinth, so don't get all worked up about what amounts to a pile of horseshit.

In fact, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness haven't been in practice for all that long when you look at the entire history of civilization. People had to start those ideas somewhere, so why not do the same with healthcare?

Oh wait, you shouldn't have to pay for all the other 300 million Americans that would partake of it, since all the burden would be placed on YOU, naturally.
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 05:03 PM       
el blanco.. i thought you might get that i meant something along the lines of el corporate. you seem to be much more interested in blaming people for letting the corporate monster do whatever it wants than accepting that corporations Are doing whatever they want. I'm much more interested in blaming the perpetrators rather than the victims. i think we should revoke the corporate charters that give corporations more rights than human beings.

preechr.. is the
1. litigious society problem the biggest drain on healthcare? sure that's one of them, but theres a long list.. if that's the biggest problem id say..
2. corporate markups is the second largest, sheesh we pay tax dollars to help these drug companies develop drugs often in college labs then they turn around and markup 1000's of % and sell them back to the folks that helped them develop the damn drugs.
3. then we have ad campaigns.. drug companies spend billions on marketing. capitalist competition for the most profits might rival the other two problems in total cost. the drug companies are the single largest return on investment business in the country.. is this health care or wealthcare?

so, government should be able to fix all three. and with the money saved we should be able to cover everybody with the basics especially if we work hard on prevention.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 07:19 PM       
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Originally Posted by El Blanco
And exactly how many people get cancer for no apperent reason?
Come on, man. You know that everything and nothing gives you cancer.

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Its one thing to go to work to feed your family and get sick from pollutants. Its completly different to choose to live a shitty lifestyle.
Do you eat a lot of red meat? If we had a universal coverage system, would I mind if my tax dollars went towards your heart disease...? No. Why? Because I'll be happy knowing that I get coverage through the system. For every one over-weight smoker I'm supporting, there'll be equally as many justified health problems that I will be aiding to prevent or cure.

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If people quit all the smoking etc.... healthcare would more affordable for everyone else.
Let me ask you this. Were you in favor or against the indoor clean air act passed in New York???
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 08:04 PM       
Do me a favor and remind me that act. I think there were a few specifics I was opposed to, but understood the spirit of the law.
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 08:06 PM       
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Originally Posted by ranxer
preechr.. is the
1. litigious society problem the biggest drain on healthcare? sure that's one of them, but theres a long list.. if that's the biggest problem id say..
It's the trunk of the tree. My first comments addressed the root system: The government wants to control the significant chunk of our GDP that is Healthcare. It has allowed free-reign of lawyers on the system to that end, hoping to destabilize the structure until public perception shifts to how you guys are seeing it and government is called in to fix it all up real nice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
2. corporate markups is the second largest, sheesh we pay tax dollars to help these drug companies develop drugs often in college labs then they turn around and markup 1000's of % and sell them back to the folks that helped them develop the damn drugs.
And all those folks buy boats, right? I'm not going to argue that drug prices are rediculous, but I will say that is a product of prices being so hidden from consumers, mostly. There are some truly amazing drugs out there, and we should expect to pay the price for the research that produces innovation imbedded into the cost of the drugs we need. I personally feel that we take much more drugs than necessary.

A Doctor that prescribes a drug instead of actually treating the patient is only ever passing the liability off on the drug maker. Chances are, in most cases, she was just not willing to tell the patient that they need to quit whining and straighten out their life. Doctors are truly making their living against all odds generally, and they have developed a very belligerent attitude about their business and customers. You can hardly blame them. You will not leave a Doctor's office without treatment of some kind. It's a business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
3. then we have ad campaigns.. drug companies spend billions on marketing. capitalist competition for the most profits might rival the other two problems in total cost. the drug companies are the single largest return on investment business in the country.. is this health care or wealthcare?
*resists urge to capitalize, edit and puntuate for you*

Nobody is watching the back door, and all the horses are getting out. I agree that it's a racket. I'm pissed that the government is taking the stand that they will not help fix the problem at all until we reliquish all control of the entire industry to it completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
so, government should be able to fix all three. and with the money saved we should be able to cover everybody with the basics especially if we work hard on prevention.
We could work on prevention now, but we aren't. The government could be making us more health conscious and doing what it can to stem rising Healthcare costs, but it isn't. I fail to see how removing competition will lower prices. I fail to see how rewarding government for destroying a perfectly good Healthcare system and endangering God knows how many people is appropriate.

Where do you guys get your trust for politicians? How have government employees and beaurocrats earned your respect?

When it comes right down to it, I want to live in a world where people get fired for doing a shitty job, especially when lives are at stake. Socializing Healthcare would eliminate that from the system, and we would suffer for it.

This board is constantly reminding me of that "Simpsons" where Homer ran for office under the premise of "Can't Somebody ELSE Do It?!"

I know the mess that is American Life seems awfully complex sometimes. That is no excuse to throw the baby out with the bath-water. Instead of throwing up your collective arms and calling what has been built over the last couple hundred years a complete waste of time and then heading back to the drawing board, why don't you look for the easy answers?

Sure, if you build the system from the ground up you will all of a sudden understand it... but just because you don't understand the system we have now doesn't mean you have the right to destroy it and replace it with something you patched together freestyle on a message board...

Sure, what we have now looks from the outside to be wholesale profiteering with no concern for patients. How would you feel, having devoted 8 years to a Doctorate and your entire financial future to a system that could ruin you at the random whim of some jerk looking to sue anybody he can to avoid working for a living, only to find out that it's a near certainty that in a matter of years you'll probably be out of a job, or, at best, you'll be a government employee.

Keep in mind... their ain't no Doctor's Union. It's illegal. I'd rather be an underwater welder, personally...
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Miss Modular Miss Modular is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 08:26 PM       
Did anyone see The Daily Show last night? Ed Helms was reporting on Senior Citizens getting their prescription drugs from Mexico.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2003, 08:52 PM       
they just replaid it. It was pretty funny.
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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 19th, 2003, 01:21 PM       
preechr
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Where do you guys get your trust for politicians? How have government employees and beaurocrats earned your respect?
so you are responding to my statement that government should be able to fix all three? i didn't mean that i expected them to fix it and i should just wait for it to be fixed. I meant that in my view it is the ROLE of government to set the rules for business such that our rights are protected.. leveling the playing field so that profit is not the main focus of healthcare.. health should be the main focus of healthcare.

I am active in politics not passive so i mean nothing less than citizen lobbying, campaigning, and organizing to get these views out there.


and blanco.. you think that might makes right? you think that if you are stronger than me you have the right to boss me around?
you think that if you can get away with something you should go ahead and do it? like jeeze the guy didnt lock his car so he must not want to keep his stereo! i'm sorry but America is nearly professional at blaming the victim.. whether its a welfare mother or an Iraqi its the norm
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