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  #51  
Dole Dole is offline
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 05:49 PM       
Sidestepping the main thrust of your completely implausible argument for one sec, if thats possible..

Quote:
Our loony leftie council here in Brighton pays for the gay pride march here every year, and if you saw it you'd see how liberals encourage hedonistic behaviour.
Tough shit. There has been a gay community in Brighton for over 100 years. You've been here 5 minutes. If they want to have a day thats an excuse for a big party in a town that has a huge (for this country) gay community then they have every right to. Especially when their lifestyle has only been legal for a few decades and where there is still paranoid, misinformed prejudice from a significant portion of the population.

You chose to come here. You're in the minority here. So, to coin a phrase I don't often use: love it or leave it.
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 06:02 PM       
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Originally Posted by Pharaoh
It's basically just a politically correct excuse for black promiscuity and it's the sort of thing that stops black people from ever changing their behaviour and stopping the spread of AIDS amongst themselves.
What would you suggest be done? What "liberal policies" could be overturned to specifically help black people?

I want you to connect the dots here, because you've done a pretty poor job thus far.

"Liberals like gays, so they allow gays to have parades, and now black people have a lot of AIDS."

So aside from reaching the same conclusions as the KKK (who you credited earlier for having a position or something), what policy would you recommend? *

* Keeping in mind, once again, that we have large campaigns here in America SPECIFICALLY addressing AIDS among the African-American community.

Uh....http://www.blackaids.org/
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 06:17 PM       
at least three of them are the same article. but the groups supporting this article are different. also take note to the bottom resources. among them are: Brigham young university, The Center for disease control and prevention, as well as

SOURCES: Alison P. Galvani, Ph.D., epidemiologist, Department of Integrative Biology, University of California, Berkeley; Cheryl Ann Winkler, Ph.D., principal investigator, human genetics, National Cancer Institute, Frederick, Md.; Nov. 17-21, 2003, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

also notice this:
"HON Foundation is a NGA in special consultative status with the economical and social council of the United Nations"

Links are also provided on the web page to the HON Foundation that explains the relations between HON and the UN.

the differnt sites who are endorsing this are in agreement that this is a Valid claim. And some of the sites offer different resources concerning AIDs research as well as direct research to the above listed resources.
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 07:16 PM       
Alright, keep in mind that AIDs cases and deaths start off as HIV. You won't die of HIV. only when it develops into the AIDs virus then do you die. Though a gay community may have more cases of HIV than a black community, The black community has a higher mortality rate. White homosexuals, when contracting HIV, self-Advocate for themselves. Black would rather die than disclose their disease. also keep in mind the economic gap between whites and blacks.

Homosexuals are the most economiclly advantaged group in the U.S. 21% of homosexual households make greater than $100,000 per year while 28% make between $100,000 to $50,000 per year. The homosexual population makes more than the latino and african-American comunities combined and they only account for %10 percent of the U.S. population.

The average AIDs patient take a combination a medicines that add up to $14,000 per year. Persons in the advanced stages pay anywhere from $20,000- $27,000 per year.

The average national income is $42,000. the black community averages $11,500 less than the national average. that's $30,00 per year. I doubt they'll be recieving AIDs/HIV treatments.
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 08:58 PM       
Why I Quit HIV

by Rebecca V. Culshaw
by Rebecca V. Culshaw

Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/culshaw1.html

As I write this, in the late winter of 2006, we are more than twenty years into the AIDS era. Like many, a large part of my life has been irreversibly affected by AIDS. My entire adolescence and adult life – as well as the lives of many of my peers – has been overshadowed by the belief in a deadly, sexually transmittable pathogen and the attendant fear of intimacy and lack of trust that belief engenders.

To add to this impact, my chosen career has developed around the HIV model of AIDS. I received my Ph.D. in 2002 for my work constructing mathematical models of HIV infection, a field of study I entered in 1996. Just ten years later, it might seem early for me to be looking back on and seriously reconsidering my chosen field, yet here I am.

My work as a mathematical biologist has been built in large part on the paradigm that HIV causes AIDS, and I have since come to realize that there is good evidence that the entire basis for this theory is wrong. AIDS, it seems, is not a disease so much as a sociopolitical construct that few people understand and even fewer question. The issue of causation, in particular, has become beyond question – even to bring it up is deemed irresponsible.

Why have we as a society been so quick to accept a theory for which so little solid evidence exists? Why do we take proclamations by government institutions like the NIH and the CDC, via newscasters and talk show hosts, entirely on faith? The average citizen has no idea how weak the connection really is between HIV and AIDS, and this is the manner in which scientifically insupportable phrases like "the AIDS virus" or "an AIDS test" have become part of the common vernacular despite no evidence for their accuracy.

When it was announced in 1984 that the cause of AIDS had been found in a retrovirus that came to be known as HIV, there was a palpable panic. My own family was immediately affected by this panic, since my mother had had several blood transfusions in the early 1980s as a result of three late miscarriages she had experienced. In the early days, we feared mosquito bites, kissing, and public toilet seats. I can still recall the panic I felt after looking up in a public restroom and seeing some graffiti that read "Do you have AIDS yet? If not, sit on this toilet seat."

But I was only ten years old then, and over time the panic subsided to more of a dull roar as it became clear that AIDS was not as easy to "catch" as we had initially believed. Fear of going to the bathroom or the dentist was replaced with a more realistic wariness of having sex with anyone we didn’t know really, really well. As a teenager who was in no way promiscuous, I didn’t have much to worry about.

That all changed – or so I thought – when I was twenty-one. Due to circumstances in my personal life and a bit of paranoia that (as it turned out, falsely and completely groundlessly) led me to believe I had somehow contracted "AIDS," I got an HIV test. I spent two weeks waiting for the results, convinced that I would soon die, and that it would be "all my fault." This was despite the fact that I was perfectly healthy, didn’t use drugs, and wasn’t promiscuous – low-risk by any definition. As it happened, the test was negative, and, having felt I had been granted a reprieve, I vowed not to take more risks, and to quit worrying so much.

Over the past ten years, my attitude toward HIV and AIDS has undergone a dramatic shift. This shift was catalyzed by the work I did as a graduate student, analyzing mathematical models of HIV and the immune system. As a mathematician, I found virtually every model I studied to be unrealistic. The biological assumptions on which the models were based varied from author to author, and this made no sense to me. It was around this time, too, that I became increasingly perplexed by the stories I heard about long-term survivors. From my admittedly inexpert viewpoint, the major thing they all had in common – other than HIV – was that they lived extremely healthy lifestyles. Part of me was becoming suspicious that being HIV-positive didn’t necessarily mean you would ever get AIDS.

By a rather curious twist of fate, it was on my way to a conference to present the results of a model of HIV that I had proposed together with my advisor, that I came across an article by Dr. David Rasnick about AIDS and the corruption of modern science. As I sat on the airplane reading this story, in which he said "the more I examined HIV, the less it made sense that this largely inactive, barely detectable virus could cause such devastation," everything he wrote started making sense to me in a way that the currently accepted model did not. I didn’t have anywhere near all the information, but my instincts told me that what he said seemed to fit.

Over the past ten years, I nevertheless continued my research into mathematical models of HIV infection, all the while keeping an ear open for dissenting voices. By now, I have read hundreds of articles on HIV and AIDS, many from the dissident point of view but far, far more from that of the establishment, which unequivocally promotes the idea that HIV causes AIDS and that the case is closed. In that time, I even published four papers on HIV (from a modeling perspective). I justified my contributions to a theory I wasn’t convinced of by telling myself these were purely theoretical, mathematical constructs, never to be applied in the real world. I suppose, in some sense also, I wanted to keep an open mind.

So why is it that only now have I decided that enough is enough, and I can no longer in any capacity continue to support the paradigm on which my entire career has been built?

As a mathematician, I was taught early on about the importance of clear definitions. AIDS, if you consider its definition, is far from clear, and is in fact not even a consistent entity. The classification "AIDS" was introduced in the early 1980s not as a disease but as a surveillance tool to help doctors and public health officials understand and control a strange "new" syndrome affecting mostly young gay men. In the two decades intervening, it has evolved into something quite different. AIDS today bears little or no resemblance to the syndrome for which it was named. For one thing, the definition has actually been changed by the CDC several times, continually expanding to include ever more diseases (all of which existed for decades prior to AIDS), and sometimes, no disease whatsoever. More than half of all AIDS diagnoses in the past several years in the United States have been made on the basis of a T-cell count and a "confirmed" positive antibody test – in other words, a deadly disease has been diagnosed over and over again on the basis of no clinical disease at all. And the leading cause of death in HIV-positives in the last few years has been liver failure, not an AIDS-defining disease in any way, but rather an acknowledged side effect of protease inhibitors, which asymptomatic individuals take in massive daily doses, for years.

The epidemiology of HIV and AIDS is puzzling and unclear as well. In spite of the fact that AIDS cases increased rapidly from their initial observation in the early 1980s and reached a peak in 1993 before declining rapidly, the number of HIV-positive individuals in the U.S. has remained constant at one million since the advent of widespread HIV antibody testing. This cannot be due to anti-HIV therapy, since the annual mortality rate of North American HIV-positives who are treated with anti-HIV drugs is much higher – between 6.7 and 8.8% – than would be the approximately 1–2% global mortality rate of HIV-positives if all AIDS cases were fatal in a given year.

Even more strangely, HIV has been present everywhere in the U.S., in every population tested including repeat blood donors and military recruits, at a virtually constant rate since testing began in 1985. It is deeply confusing that a virus thought to have been brought to the AIDS epicenters of New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles in the early 1970s could possibly have spread so rapidly at first, yet have stopped spreading completely as soon as testing began.

Returning for a moment to the mathematical modeling, one aspect that had always puzzled me was the lack of agreement on how to accurately represent the actual biological mechanism of immune impairment. AIDS is said to be caused by a dramatic loss of the immune system’s T-cells, said loss being presumably caused by HIV. Why then could no one agree on how to mathematically model the dynamics of the fundamental disease process – that is, how are T-cells actually killed by HIV? Early models assumed that HIV killed T-cells directly, by what is referred to as lysis. An infected cell lyses, or bursts, when the internal viral burden is so high that it can no longer be contained, just like your grocery bag breaks when it’s too full. This is in fact the accepted mechanism of pathogenesis for virtually all other viruses. But it became clear that HIV did not in fact kill T-cells in this manner, and this concept was abandoned, to be replaced by various other ones, each of which resulted in very different models and, therefore, different predictions. Which model was "correct" never was clear.

As it turns out, the reason there was no consensus mathematically as to how HIV killed T-cells was because there was no biological consensus. There still isn’t. HIV is possibly the most studied microbe in history – certainly it is the best-funded – yet there is still no agreed-upon mechanism of pathogenesis. Worse than that, there are no data to support the hypothesis that HIV kills T-cells at all. It doesn’t in the test tube. It mostly just sits there, as it does in people – if it can be found at all. In Robert Gallo's seminal 1984 paper in which he claims "proof" that HIV causes AIDS, actual HIV could be found in only 26 out of 72 AIDS patients. To date, actual HIV remains an elusive target in those with AIDS or simply HIV-positive.

This is starkly illustrated by the continued use of antibody tests to diagnose HIV infection. Antibody tests are fairly standard to test for certain microbes, but for anything other than HIV, the main reason they are used in place of direct tests (that is, actually looking for the bacteria or virus itself) is because they are generally much easier and cheaper than direct testing. Most importantly, such antibody tests have been rigorously verified against the gold standard of microbial isolation. This stands in vivid contrast to HIV, for which antibody tests are used because there exists no test for the actual virus. As to so-called "viral load," most people are not aware that tests for viral load are neither licensed nor recommended by the FDA to diagnose HIV infection. This is why an "AIDS test" is still an antibody test. Viral load, however, is used to estimate the health status of those already diagnosed HIV-positive. But there are very good reasons to believe it does not work at all. Viral load uses either PCR or a technique called branched-chained DNA amplification (bDNA). PCR is the same technique used for "DNA fingerprinting" at crime scenes where only trace amounts of materials can be found. PCR essentially mass-produces DNA or RNA so that it can be seen. If something has to be mass-produced to even be seen, and the result of that mass-production is used to estimate how much of a pathogen there is, it might lead a person to wonder how relevant the pathogen was in the first place. Specifically, how could something so hard to find, even using the most sensitive and sophisticated technology, completely decimate the immune system? bDNA, while not magnifying anything directly, nevertheless looks only for fragments of DNA believed, but not proven, to be components of the genome of HIV – but there is no evidence to say that these fragments don’t exist in other genetic sequences unrelated to HIV or to any virus. It is worth noting at this point that viral load, like antibody tests, has never been verified against the gold standard of HIV isolation. bDNA uses PCR as a gold standard, PCR uses antibody tests as a gold standard, and antibody tests use each other. None use HIV itself.

There is good reason to believe the antibody tests are flawed as well. The two types of tests routinely used are the ELISA and the Western Blot (WB). The current testing protocol is to "verify" a positive ELISA with the "more specific" WB (which has actually been banned from diagnostic use in the UK because it is so unreliable). But few people know that the criteria for a positive WB vary from country to country and even from lab to lab. Put bluntly, a person’s HIV status could well change depending on the testing venue. It is also possible to test "WB indeterminate," which translates to any one of "uninfected," "possibly infected," or even, absurdly, "partly infected" under the current interpretation. This conundrum is confounded by the fact that the proteins comprising the different reactive "bands" on the WB test are all claimed to be specific to HIV, raising the question of how a truly uninfected individual could possess antibodies to even one "HIV-specific" protein.

I have come to sincerely believe that these HIV tests do immeasurably more harm than good, due to their astounding lack of specificity and standardization. I can buy the idea that anonymous screening of the blood supply for some nonspecific marker of ill health (which, due to cross reactivity with many known pathogens, a positive HIV antibody test often seems to be) is useful. I cannot buy the idea that any individual needs to have a diagnostic HIV test. A negative test may not be accurate (whatever that means), but a positive one can create utter havoc and destruction in a person’s life – all for a virus that most likely does absolutely nothing. I do not feel it is going too far to say that these tests ought to be banned for diagnostic purposes.

The real victims in this mess are those whose lives are turned upside-down by the stigma of an HIV diagnosis. These people, most of whom are perfectly healthy, are encouraged to avoid intimacy and are further branded with the implication that they were somehow dreadfully foolish and careless. Worse, they are encouraged to take massive daily doses of some of the most toxic drugs ever manufactured. HIV, for many years, has fulfilled the role of a microscopic terrorist. People have lost their jobs, been denied entry into the Armed Forces, been refused residency in and even entry into some countries, even been charged with assault or murder for having consensual sex; babies have been taken from their mothers and had toxic medications forced down their throats. There is no precedent for this type of behavior, as it is all in the name of a completely unproven, fundamentally flawed hypothesis, on the basis of highly suspect, indirect tests for supposed infection with an allegedly deadly virus – a virus that has never been observed to do much of anything.

As to the question of what does cause AIDS, if it is not HIV, there are many plausible explanations given by people known to be experts. Before the discovery of HIV, AIDS was assumed to be a lifestyle syndrome caused mostly by indiscriminate use of recreational drugs. Immunosuppression has multiple causes, from an overload of microbes to malnutrition. Probably all of these are true causes of AIDS. Immune deficiency has many manifestations, and a syndrome with many manifestations is likely multicausal as well. Suffice it to say that the HIV hypothesis of AIDS has offered nothing but predictions – of its spread, of the availability of a vaccine, of a forthcoming animal model, and so on – that have not materialized, and it has not saved a single life.

After ten years involved in the academic side of HIV research, as well as in the academic world at large, I truly believe that the blame for the universal, unconditional, faith-based acceptance of such a flawed theory falls squarely on the shoulders of those among us who have actively endorsed a completely unproven hypothesis in the interests of furthering our careers. Of course, hypotheses in science deserve to be studied, but no hypothesis should be accepted as fact before it is proven, particularly one whose blind acceptance has such dire consequences.

For over twenty years, the general public has been greatly misled and ill-informed. As someone who has been raised by parents who taught me from a young age never to believe anything just because "everyone else accepts it to be true," I can no longer just sit by and do nothing, thereby contributing to this craziness. And the craziness has gone on long enough. As humans – as honest academics and scientists – the only thing we can do is allow the truth to come to light.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 09:42 PM       
Quote:
Even more strangely, HIV has been present everywhere in the U.S., in every population tested including repeat blood donors and military recruits, at a virtually constant rate since testing began in 1985. It is deeply confusing that a virus thought to have been brought to the AIDS epicenters of New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles in the early 1970s could possibly have spread so rapidly at first, yet have stopped spreading completely as soon as testing began.
What's so unbelievable about this? Couldn't this maybe correlate with sex education, the availability of contraception, and a greater understanding of how it got passed around?

Bleh.....
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 10:47 PM       
I would not argue that the rapid spread of AIDs in the 70's and 80's was a flaw in our knowledge, a failure to educate, and the neglect to encourage protection. I too believe this is the case.
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Old Mar 5th, 2006, 10:58 PM       
Que?
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 12:35 PM       
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Originally Posted by Dole
Sidestepping the main thrust of your completely implausible argument for one sec, if thats possible..

Quote:
Our loony leftie council here in Brighton pays for the gay pride march here every year, and if you saw it you'd see how liberals encourage hedonistic behaviour.
Tough shit. There has been a gay community in Brighton for over 100 years. You've been here 5 minutes. If they want to have a day thats an excuse for a big party in a town that has a huge (for this country) gay community then they have every right to. Especially when their lifestyle has only been legal for a few decades and where there is still paranoid, misinformed prejudice from a significant portion of the population.

You chose to come here. You're in the minority here. So, to coin a phrase I don't often use: love it or leave it.
Don't worry Dope, I do leave it, I stay safely in Hove. Obviously you love it though. Yeah, I can just see you dancing around your pink handbag, with all the other trannies, like the mousy, bikini girl in your Faster Pussycat! avatar.
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 12:48 PM       
Fallacy of Personal Attack
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 01:44 PM       
Is it even worth pointing that out to a man who argues that liberals and gays are giving AIDS to the black community?
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 01:45 PM       
Pharah sounds as if he's frightened that gayness mught be contageous, or might reach out and scar him in some way.
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 02:20 PM       
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Don't worry Dope, I do leave it, I stay safely in Hove. Obviously you love it though. Yeah, I can just see you dancing around your pink handbag, with all the other trannies, like the mousy, bikini girl in your Faster Pussycat! avatar.
Dudearent you from MANCHESTER? and you moved to BRIGHTON?. Kind of a strange coincidence, yes? You just can't get enough of the liberal gays! Where do you holiday? San Francisco? Mykonos?

And incidentally, it has been historically proven here that anyone who ends a post with "" is always the only person to whom their posts are even vaguely amusing. Like the people who laugh loudly at their own jokes in pubs. I will keep an ear out for loud Mancunian laughter followed by uncomfortable silence in my local hostelries.
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I don't get it. I mean, why did they fuck with the formula? Where are the car songs? There's only one song about surfing and it's a downer!
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 03:14 PM       
dole would look fabulous dancing around a pink handbag
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 03:43 PM       
Hey I would, and I'd do it too! Er...if I could dance.
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I don't get it. I mean, why did they fuck with the formula? Where are the car songs? There's only one song about surfing and it's a downer!
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 03:45 PM       
I just got back from looking up "Mancunian." What have you people done with your lives?
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 03:46 PM       
I can't really read through this thread, because it makes my stomach turn... so this isn't meant for debate as much as just a general comment.

It should go without saying, AIDS/HIV has effected every color, gender, religion, political affiliation, height, weight, age, nationality....whatever. The disporportionate numbers show a lapse in preventative behavior - and that is all they show. Not just the lack of protection, but the lack of awareness one has the disease, and the acceptance to let your status be known. The pills are debate able...the causes, and origins are debatable.... what isn't debateable is that the disease spreads through careless behavior involving a transmission of fluids. I get the feeling from reading these posts that we're not all grasping that.

I lived in SF during the worst of the AIDS crisis, and let me tell you... most victims were dead long before they even had a chance to figure out how they got sick. Now people can live years and years, and appear healthy. One more reason why you're seeing greater numbers in Black Americans, or Africans is because they are being tested in greater numbers then ever before. If they set up mandatory testing for hipsters in open relationships, you'd see a huge boom in priviledged white 20-somethings with obscure record collections coming down with the disease. Who do you know that's using condoms 100% all the time? Who do you know that hasn't been cheated on? Who do you know that hasn't engaged in risky behavior with a partner that didn't disclose their entire sexual history? Who uses protection for oral sex? How do we know HIV testing is accurate? That's the problem. I hate to sound doom and gloom but I predict there will be another HIV outbreak in the next 10 years, from mainly dormant cases.
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 04:28 PM       
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Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
I'm not sure who's worse, Rongi for posting a thread in all caps, informing us that the KKK doesn't like black people, or Pharaoh for that stupid response.

i posted it in all caps because it was such a rediculous thing of them to say
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 04:43 PM       
Thanks for the update, buddy.
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 04:44 PM       
no problem
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 05:08 PM       
I'm sorry, that was unnecessary of me.
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Old Mar 6th, 2006, 05:10 PM       
looking back on it maybe this wasnt such a great idea. i just thought this article was silly and i should share it with you guys.
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Old Mar 7th, 2006, 01:26 PM       
adcdxxxx, I agree with you. I was attacking the original post that concerned racism. The KKK has information and twisted it to their own use. The numbers they use are not full acurate and the information used has been stretched to their needs. My goal was to point out the truth and explain how the conlusions of their truth and the real truth are different.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Mar 7th, 2006, 01:33 PM       
Kind of like what everyone else on this forum does when there's something they disagree with.

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Old Mar 7th, 2006, 05:51 PM       
Pharaoh is still allowed to 'debate' things?
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