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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Apr 26th, 2003, 08:21 PM        The proof that Saddam worked with bin Laden
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html


The proof that Saddam worked with bin Laden
By Inigo Gilmore
(Filed: 27/04/2003)


Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terrorist network and Saddam Hussein's regime.

Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al-Qa'eda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998.

The documents show that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and al-Qa'eda based on their mutual hatred of America and Saudi Arabia. The meeting apparently went so well that it was extended by a week and ended with arrangements being discussed for bin Laden to visit Baghdad.

The papers will be seized on by Washington as the first proof of what the United States has long alleged - that, despite denials by both sides, Saddam's regime had a close relationship with al-Qa'eda.

The Telegraph found the file on bin Laden inside a folder lying in the rubble of one of the rooms of the destroyed intelligence HQ. There are three pages, stapled together; two are on paper headed with the insignia and lettering of the Mukhabarat.

They show correspondence between Mukhabarat agencies over preparations for the visit of al-Qa'eda's envoy, who travelled to Iraq from Sudan, where bin Laden had been based until 1996. They disclose what Baghdad hopes to achieve from the meeting, which took place less than five months before bin Laden was placed at the top of America's most wanted list following the bombing of two US embassies in east Africa.

Perhaps aware of the sensitivities of the subject matter, Iraqi agents at some point clumsily attempted to mask out all references to bin Laden, using white correcting fluid. The dried fluid was removed to reveal the clearly legible name three times in the documents.

One paper is marked "Top Secret and Urgent". It is signed "MDA", a codename believed to be the director of one of the intelligence sections within the Mukhabarat, and dated February 19, 1998. It refers to the planned trip from Sudan by bin Laden's unnamed envoy and refers to the arrangements for his visit.

A letter with this document says the envoy is a trusted confidant of bin Laden. It adds: "According to the above, we suggest permission to call the Khartoum station [Iraq's intelligence office in Sudan] to facilitate the travel arrangements for the above-mentioned person to Iraq. And that our body carry all the travel and hotel costs inside Iraq to gain the knowledge of the message from bin Laden and to convey to his envoy an oral message from us to bin Laden."

The letter refers to al-Qa'eda's leader as an opponent of the Saudi Arabian regime and says that the message to convey to him through the envoy "would relate to the future of our relationship with him, bin Laden, and to achieve a direct meeting with him."

According to handwritten notes at the bottom of the page, the letter was passed on through another director in the Mukhabarat and on to the deputy director general of the intelligence service.

It recommends that "the deputy director general bring the envoy to Iraq because we may find in this envoy a way to maintain contacts with bin Laden". The deputy director general has signed the document. All of the signatories use codenames.

The other documents then confirm that the envoy travelled from Khartoum to Baghdad in March 1998, staying at al-Mansour Melia, a first-class hotel. It mentions that his visit was extended by a week. In the notes in a margin, a name "Mohammed F. Mohammed Ahmed" is mentioned, but it is not clear whether this is the the envoy or an agent.

Intriguingly, the Iraqis talk about sending back an oral message to bin Laden, perhaps aware of the risk of a written message being intercepted. However, the documents do not mention if any meeting took place between bin Laden and Iraqi officials.

The file contradicts the claims of Baghdad, bin Laden and many critics of the coalition that there was no link between the Iraqi regime and al-Qa'eda. One Western intelligence official contacted last night described the file as "sensational", adding: "Baghdad clearly sought out the meeting. The regime would have wanted it to happen in the capital as it's only there they would feel safe from surveillance by Western intelligence."

Over the past three weeks, The Telegraph has discovered various other intelligence files in the wrecked Mukhabarat building, including documents revealing how Russia passed on to Iraq details of private conversations between Tony Blair and Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, and how Germany held clandestine meetings with the regime.

A Downing Street spokesman said last night: "Since Saddam's fall a series of documents have come to light which will have to be fully assessed by the proper authorities over a period of time. We will certainly want to study these documents as part of that process to see if they shed new light on the relationship between Saddam's regime and al-Qa'eda.
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theapportioner theapportioner is offline
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Old Apr 26th, 2003, 08:29 PM       
Plenty of countries have ties to al-Qaeda -- countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. So?
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Apr 26th, 2003, 09:03 PM       
But there was no ties linking Saddam to Osama. Or at least that is what the liberals said while they laughed and called Bush an idiot.
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Old Apr 26th, 2003, 10:08 PM       
The point is this shouldn't be a big deal even if it is real (which is an object of contention regardless of whose side you are on).

You can't attack a country on a hunch, and as you said, this is the first real evidence suggesting that such a link ever existed, thus even if it DID exist, it doesn't actually justify the war.

It doesn't matter how astute Bush's psychic predictions were in this matter ( once again, if this is real) because then we could simply attack any nation on a hunch and pray to find a convinient little document like this afterward.
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Old Apr 26th, 2003, 11:45 PM       
i'm not sure it's still called a hunch once it's verified through several international intelligence sources, and various planted spies, but ok.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 02:15 AM       
democracy exported!


links shminks there's links of our cia and al-qaeda, they don't make you wonder?

and again so what? we were in the wrong either way. [/img]
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 01:14 PM       
Know whats funny about those pictures? The blood of patriots has been shed time and time again to allow people like that to protests and it gives them the protection to do so without someone like myself shattering their ribcages in the middle of the street.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 02:35 PM        re
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Know whats funny about those pictures? The blood of patriots has been shed time and time again to allow people like that to protests and it gives them the protection to do so without someone like myself shattering their ribcages in the middle of the street.
That's a good thing asshole.

Tell me. If you don't value these freedoms, then why the are you so
adamant about fighting to protect them? Maybe you're just a belligerent fucker with an extra 21st chromosome.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 02:37 PM       
And apparently, a malfunctioning metabolism gene.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 02:46 PM        Re: re
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorthlessLiar
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Know whats funny about those pictures? The blood of patriots has been shed time and time again to allow people like that to protests and it gives them the protection to do so without someone like myself shattering their ribcages in the middle of the street.
That's a good thing asshole.

Tell me. If you don't value these freedoms, then why the are you so
adamant about fighting to protect them? Maybe you're just a belligerent fucker with an extra 21st chromosome.
Living your life through Tool doesn't make you free thinking, WL, it makes you a sheep. I'd advise quiting. And where did I say that I dont value the freedoms? Don't talk unless you have something with substance to say.


And app, please. Think of something a bit more clever before you wing a limp-wristed insult.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 03:01 PM       
Speak for yourself, honey. That would silence you.

But, I suppose we desire your inane remarks for our entertainment and pity.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 03:15 PM       
Vince, when you say someone like you busting their ribcage, you mean like who could rush them without busting out in hives and fainting?

Or do you mean someone more inclined to enage in actualviolent action as opposed to just writting about it and getting a stiffy?
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 03:39 PM       
Sorry Max, I don't "get a stiffy" from violence. I am just an agressive person by nature.

And who, hives, man, what cleverness! Glad you like attacking people's illnesses and disabilities. I could say something truly evil but I'd rather not. I have more class than you, Max.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 04:03 PM       
Come on people, think for a moment. I'm not sure who said it, but there is some obvious confusion.

CIA has ties to Al Quaeda. Alright, what did they do? Well, they helped organize resistance to Russian imperialism, as in, the Soviets were going to sack Afghanistan and we couldn't interfere military so we taught them to. Thats not exactly a bad thing. We also armed and trained them. Holy fuck. We helped a people protect their nation, yeah, thats the same as the current ME nations helping Al Quaeda make terrorist strikes.

We also inspired others to rise up for their own sake and secede from the Soviet Union. Yes, got alot of them killed, yes they proxy soldiers for a US cause -But that in no way undermines the importance of their independant actions.

Most of you only Gorbachev, perestroika, glasnost and the end of the Cold War. Think back to Brezhnev and you may realize things were a bit more dire once.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 04:53 PM        re
Still, we had to know that they would create a reppressive theocracy, which, on my list of nightmare governments is just a shade worse (understatement) than a communist one.
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Old Apr 27th, 2003, 05:15 PM       
hah, yea ror they tell us everything they are involved in .. the cia has an open book policy eh?
Now, i do trust many people in the cia, fbi etc, but a 5% corruption can add up to a couple planes going off course or somesuch without much effort.
plus, you gotta wonder why the cia is so compartmentalized.. need to know or not know is a situation that can be majorly exploited by a single bad apple near the top..
not to mention the threats of national security clobbering any whistleblowers.. sorry i don't have blind faith in these organizations.

oh and gee thanks vince.. so you agree with might makes right.. similar to bush.. the 'civil society' or civilized society is an affront to you eh? where does an eye for an eye lead? fight it out and we will have nothing left when we're done no matter who wins.

man, i really want a kevlar jacket, i'd feel better about my freespeech with the drivebys, i've seen a few drunks out there that i thought might come back and try to take us out, heh, i stand near a tree or pole and keep a sharp eye out sometimes
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Old Apr 28th, 2003, 06:51 PM       
While I would personally find it signifiant if Bin laden and Iraq had any serious involvement, I will wait 'till this 'proof' is ferified. I seem to recall the 'proof' the administration held up that Iraq was aattempting to enrich uranium was based on a forgery, and not even very good one.

And don't CONSPIRACY me. It's happened in the last few months. I'd ike to hear what even our own intellgence agencies make of this before I invest any interest.
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Old Apr 28th, 2003, 08:40 PM        re
I agree with Max. I have my suspicions but if other sources could verify this, you and your kind, Vince, could be somewhat vindicated.

However this is only true if you opperate on purely consequence based ethics where the nature of the act doesn't matter as long as you get some kind of results. In Kant's ethics at least whether we found ties to Bind Ladin or not is moot. The fact is we went in on a hunch with nebulous reasoning and we'll come up with whatever reason fits to justify it in retrospect.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Apr 29th, 2003, 09:40 AM       
I'm not seeing a lot of confirmation on this story yet, and you know if it had any solidity at all the Bush administration would be trumpeting like Bull Elephants.
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