Strengthing Saddam

[theapportioner]

Granted this war is still days old, but now that things are starting to get shitty for the US and British militaries, the possibility increases that this will be a long conflict like, dare I say it, Vietnam. Before you nay say my pessimism, realize I am speaking hypothetically.

The risk that Saddam would become a martyr or an Islamic hero was always there, but the tenacity of Iraqi resistance shows that we underestimated his support. This support will only grow (like Osama's) if Saddam holds his own for an extended time, and/or eludes capture. It would be the greatest irony then, if the campaign to remove Saddam Hussein makes him the transcendent Islamic hero he's always wanted to be -- the next Saladin.

To those who say that the peace movement supports Saddam, you couldn't be more wrong.

[ItalianStereotype]

the war on terror will probably be as long as vietnam, but this war wont. remember, the first gulf war lasted something like 230 days. we are, what, almost two weeks into this war? plus, we are already marching on baghdad, so i wouldnt worry about an extended war in iraq.

most iraqis are against hussein, but they hate the americans more. i doubt that we will have to worry about him becoming the next saladin especially if he continues to do such things as fire on civilians fleeing the war.

[theapportioner]

It may be that history, or the manipulation thereof, makes it so that Saddam is only remembered for what he did against the Americans. And non Iraqi Arabs and other Muslims, who haven't felt his wrath, will have more reason to rally towards him.

[FS]

Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype

the war on terror will probably be as long as vietnam, but this war wont.

The war on terror will never be over, not if its intended purpose is to end terrorism (or even just terrorism against the US). Unless you're talking about secondary goal of it, like establishing democracies in the Middle East? Anyway, how long was the Vietnam war again?

The excess media coverage and of this war and the international attention to it is making it seem like things are moving much slower than 'usual'. But I think the biggest problem right now is that the allied forces might not really be prepared for the manner in which Middle Eastern countries fight; invoking religion, using suicide bombers, arming civilians or using them as human shields, martyrs, etc.

[AChimp]

Or just doing sneaky shit, like not surrendering when they're supposed to.

[El Blanco]

but now that things are starting to get shitty for the US and British militaries, the possibility increases that this will be a long conflict like, dare I say it, Vietnam.

this is made obvious by the 1,000 to 1 kill ratio and the fact we are less than a day from Bagdad while we gear up for a heavy assault.

People die in war. I in no way mean to belittle them or their sacrifices, but it happens. The purpose of war is to pummel the other side into oblivion or submission. The only reason casualties are this high is because we are being careful to accept surrenders and not harm civilians.

Although, Fat Satan does bring up a good point. How far will we have to go to beat them? If a soldier shoots through a child in order to kill the guy with the rocket launcher who strapped the kid to his own chest, how will we respond? We saw a lot of dirty shit in Viet Nam, so hopefully, our guys are being prepared for it.

As for how long the war on terror will last: Never. I'm sorry, folks, but the reality is, there will always be pissed off people who use violence to get some attention.

"The price of peace is eternal vigilance" (Churchill or FDR?)

[Godpuppet]

know what would fix this all? a nice glass of ovaltine and a game of super smash bros. between Bush and the other guy... and by the way, it would be forever, not never....

[The_Rorschach]

The next Saladin huh? You know, he's seen by many as a man of peace, but while he brokered peace with the Jews, his relations with Christian civilians in the region was one of extreme prejudice. I have no doubt Hussein will allude capture. Its not terribly difficult, but without a country, he's a toothless hound. He's out of shape, out of his mind, and once out of power, no longer a threat.

So long as we keep our perspective in this war, and I believe we shall, he ultimately will be relegated to relative obscurity in the aftermath of Iraq.

[mburbank]

"without a country, he's a toothless hound. "

I disagree. I think, at large but uncaught, he becomes an iconic image (something he has long laid the groundwork for) that people can hold up and die for without the complications of perhaps disagreeing with his scularism which would no longer be on display or his regional policies which would no longer be in effect. His image can become a rallying point for all forms of anti-american sentiment.

AND he will be another example along with Bin Laden of an Arab Rebel who elludes the Great Satan.

[Protoclown]

Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype

the war on terror will probably be as long as vietnam, but this war wont.

I know FatSatan already addressed this, but I found this statement to be so insane that I couldn't let it go by without responding myself.

HOW can the "war on terror" EVER end?? It's a bullshit concept in the first place, and there is NO WAY IN HELL to ever bring something like that to an end.

We don't know who is a terrorist until they commit an act of terror. And since so many of them commit these acts of terrorism in suicidal missions, HOW can you retaliate against them? Okay, you can go after the group they're affiliated with, IF they were even affiliated with a terrorist group in the first place. But then how do you find the groups these terrorists are affiliated with? How do you root them out? And even when you do, how do you avoid creating more embittered psycopaths whose rage toward us drives them to commit acts of terrorism themselves?

You can't fight a "war" against an opponent you can't locate or even IDENTIFY. You can't accept a surrender, or sign a treaty, or agree to a cease fire with them.

[FS]

Terrorism can rarely be fought, and even if it's possible, using secret operatives or small amounts of soldiers is much more effective than a bombardment.

The only way to effectively fight it would be to prevent the circumstances that breed it, and even that's not always possible.

[VinceZeb]

The war on terrorism is not bullshit. It is a real war. But we should call it what it is: The war against fundamentlist Islamics that will carry out attacks on Western civilization.

Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win. The only way we will contain this to make sure that these people that want to go to heaven for fighting in Jihad are destroyed. And I don't mean by beating up a country or two. I mean, when you capture one, you make him drink pigs blood and slit his thorat. We have to make it known that "imposing Allah's will" has no place in free nations. Do what you want in your backwards country. Don't fuck with us, and when you do, your bloodline wont exist on the planet.

Like I said before, they don't care about YOU, unless you are non-Muslim. Then you convert or die. People need to wake up and realize this. Heads in the sand will only make them easier to cut off without reistance.

[FS]

Vince, Terrorism is not a country. It is a concept, and if you bite it it'll just bite back. You can't wipe out terrorism because you can't control people's minds. Attacking the circumstances that create it, rather than manipulating them, will only serve to increase terrorism.

There is one way to defeat terrorism - occupying the entire world and enforcing a complete police state with no civil rights whatsoever. That world would be safe.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win. The only way we will contain this to make sure that these people that want to go to heaven for fighting in Jihad are destroyed. And I don't mean by beating up a country or two. I mean, when you capture one, you make him drink pigs blood and slit his thorat. We have to make it known that "imposing Allah's will" has no place in free nations. Do what you want in your backwards country. Don't fuck with us, and when you do, your bloodline wont exist on the planet.

Eek. Now that is scary. Does this remind anyone of the rhetoric historically used against Jews?

[Protoclown]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win. The only way we will contain this to make sure that these people that want to go to heaven for fighting in Jihad are destroyed.

Okay, maybe I'm just "misinformed", but I fail to see how going out and "wiping out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind" makes us ANY different from these Muslim fundamentalists who want to kill all non-Muslims.

HOW exactly would that make us any "better" than them, Vince?

And if you DON'T want to kill all the Muslims like you just fucking SAID you did, how exactly would we identify the specific Muslims who "want to go to heaven for fighting in the Jihad". Do you have a magical crystal ball or mind-reading device that will help you identify them without fault?


P.S. you're a sick fuck



P.P.S. fatty

[VinceZeb]

Good liberals put words in people's mouths. You two are real good liberals. Where in anything did I say that I, VinceZeb, want to destroy everything that has ever existed about Islam? Oh wait, I didn't!

1) Last time I checked, I didn't see Jews strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up in public places, like what just happened. I don't see jews flying planes into buildings. I don't see jews brutally opressing anyone because of religion. I see the jews tolerating Arafag and the rest of his corhorts because they want peace. They could have wiped out the Gaza Strip and West bank in a new york minute if they wanted to. If you are trying to use moral equivelency into something you know I did not mean in the first place, then I strongly suggest reading up more on your arguments before you make assumptions.

2) Now proto, since you are an idiot I have to dumb it down for you. Now, how to explain this to a netgeek with a superority complex..... hmm.... ok. Well, I never said that I wanted to kill all the muslims, first off. Where in there did I say it? I said that is the only way we would truly complete the war on terror that we are fighting now. Killing off ALL muslims would make us just as evil as they are. Now, where have you seen me avocating SS style tactics with all muslims? Wait, that's right, NOWHERE!

And how would I identify them? Hmmm, lets see. Now, Proto, since you secretly worship at the alter of the P.C. god "tolerance", I will explain how. Background checks on Muslims from terrorist states that we as the U.S. have identifed. When someone gets extreme in their anti-American retoric and starts to talk about the new Muslim theorcracy and killing Americans, they are surveyed and watched. Terrorist threats that we recieved are treated as 100% accurate and must be dealt with.

I truly believe you don't get the ramifications of your ideas. What are you going to do, Proto? Sit there and let the guy next to you talk about going into glorious Jihad and talk about the crusaders and the zionist destroying the world and that Allah has commanded him to kill, then sit there yourself and do nothing until your throat is slit? Do you not really understand what is going on in the world?

THEY HATE YOU, Proto! Muslim fundimentalists would put a bullet in you just as fast as me if they get the chance. They are the ultimate in "multiculturalism": They do not care about race, height, weight, eye color, hair length, your favorite band, your type of computer, anything of that. If you ain't muslim, you ain't livin.

I don't know how much plainer I can get. I do not want to kill all muslims whatosever. But the ones who want to kill me, well, I could care less what happens to them or how they die.

[punkgrrrlie10]

War on terrorism is about as useful as the war on drugs.

First off, alot of emphasis seems to be placed on Islam. Yes we have Muslim terrorists but don't rule out our own homegrown terrorists who still love to place bombs in federal buildings. Terrorism is something that can't be stomped out. It's impossible. There will always be some crazy bastard with a moral complex trying to kill anyone who doesn't agree w/their cause (hmmmm analogies anyone?)

[theapportioner]

Terrorism is not a country. It is a concept, and if you bite it it'll just bite back.

It is neither a country nor a concept. It is a technique of war, one that neutralizes superior military technology whilst creating legends and inspiring others. Bombing terrorist camps will get rid of immediate threats, but we are seeing a symbiotic relationship develop with the civilian population. This makes it exceedingly difficult to deal with militarily, unless you get rid of the civilian population too. The conundrum of Israel and Palestine. In effect, these militants have exploited our greatest "weakness", a desire to not kill innocent people. Ultimately, our choice will be as follows -- 1) kill every Arab (a "solution", however awful), 2) do it the Israeli way -- our way currently (less morally repugnant I suppose, but won't end Islamist terrorism), 3) do nothing, 4) somehow get other Arabs to reject this method, as we do now. There are probably other options too.

2) the continuation of this option will encourage other societies that are currently irritating to the American govt. to adopt this symbiosis, too. Saddam has done it. Who else? Iran, North Korea? The list could very well go on. Continued military intervention will only lead to our hands getting more and more tied down. To use an example in biology, the development of antibiotic resistant germs due to the overusage of penicillin, etc.

4) seems to be the most difficult, but ultimately the best -- it will lead to a solution that does not involve wiping out billions of people. I don't have a good answer, but I can tell you that military intervention ain't helping things.

[Protoclown]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Good liberals put words in people's mouths. You two are real good liberals. Where in anything did I say that I, VinceZeb, want to destroy everything that has ever existed about Islam? Oh wait, I didn't!

"Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win." - VinceZeb

"Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win." - VinceZeb

"Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win." - VinceZeb

Oh, I'm sorry Vince, did you not mean that we SHOULD wipe out every trace of Islam in the existence of mankind? You were just saying that if we DON'T we won't win the war?

But now that you're saying that you NEVER said we should wipe out all the Muslims, it can be inferred that you do not want us to win this war, since that, as you have previously stated (not five posts ago for your no-short-term-memory addled brain) the ONLY way to win is to wipe out all traces of Islam in existence.

Jesus, man! What the fuck ARE you? Anti-American or something??

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

1) Last time I checked, I didn't see Jews strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up in public places, like what just happened.

Hey Vince! Remember this?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/je..._defense8.html

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

2) Now proto, since you are an idiot I have to dumb it down for you. Now, how to explain this to a netgeek with a superority complex..... hmm.... ok. Well, I never said that I wanted to kill all the muslims, first off. Where in there did I say it?

"Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win." - VinceZeb

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

I said that is the only way we would truly complete the war on terror that we are fighting now. Killing off ALL muslims would make us just as evil as they are. Now, where have you seen me avocating SS style tactics with all muslims? Wait, that's right, NOWHERE!

Oh, silly me! Somehow I thought "every trace of Islam in the existence of mankind" sort of included all Muslims!

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

And how would I identify them? Hmmm, lets see. Now, Proto, since you secretly worship at the alter of the P.C. god "tolerance", I will explain how.

If you think it's a big secret that I believe in tolerance, you're even dumber than I thought.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Background checks on Muslims from terrorist states that we as the U.S. have identifed. When someone gets extreme in their anti-American retoric and starts to talk about the new Muslim theorcracy and killing Americans, they are surveyed and watched. Terrorist threats that we recieved are treated as 100% accurate and must be dealt with.

"Dealt with"? Dealt with how exactly, Big (and I do mean "Big") Brother? As for "anti-American rhetoric", I have spoken out against the Bush administration AND this war! There are a lot of people out there who have called me "anti-American" because of that. Does that mean I should be surveyed and watched?

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

I truly believe you don't get the ramifications of your ideas. What are you going to do, Proto? Sit there and let the guy next to you talk about going into glorious Jihad and talk about the crusaders and the zionist destroying the world and that Allah has commanded him to kill, then sit there yourself and do nothing until your throat is slit? Do you not really understand what is going on in the world?

Now, I'm first to admit that I'm no expert on the Middle East or Islam by any stretch, but let me ask you this. Where were all these Muslims that were hell-bent on killing us 50 years ago? 100 years ago? Were they vowing to kill the Great American Satan then? I don't know, maybe they were, but I don't seem to recall a whole lot of terrorist attacks happening in our country until we started really butting into the affairs of the Middle East after the creation of Israel.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

THEY HATE YOU, Proto! Muslim fundimentalists would put a bullet in you just as fast as me if they get the chance. They are the ultimate in "multiculturalism": They do not care about race, height, weight, eye color, hair length, your favorite band, your type of computer, anything of that. If you ain't muslim, you ain't livin.

YOU HATE THEM, VinceZeb! If we go by your "the only way to win the war is to wipe out all traces of Islam on the earth which gee golly sure sounds an awful lot like killing all the Muslims to me" plan, then if you IS muslim, you ain't livin.

[Jeanette X]

Whenever I have read statements by terrorists, they have always listed very specific political reasons for their actions. It was never anything as simple as "Destroy the infidels!"

[ItalianStereotype]

no, its always something like "destroy the imperialist pigdogs"

[Protoclown]

Yeah!! Or "unless we wipe out every trace of Christianity in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win."

[mburbank]

BUMP! Becuase I'm dying to know what's going on with Vince.

Is it:
A.) Bipolar Mood swings.
B.) Blackouts.
C.) A poor understanding of the meaning of words.
D.) Insanity.
E.) Someone has hacked his account and he didn't notice.
F.) He was typing so fast whole sentences came out that weren't what he meant and he shouldn't be held accountable for him, like the second time he almost died.

One of these must be account for the complete incompatability of these two statements:

"Where in anything did I say that I, VinceZeb, want to destroy everything that has ever existed about Islam? Oh wait, I didn't!"

and

"Unless we wipe out every trace of Islam in the existance of mankind, this is a war we will never win."

I'm voting for C or F.

[Anonymous]

B

[AChimp]

I'd have to go with B as well.

Eliminating the conditions that breed terrorism is the only way to go. But didn't Jean Chretien say that after 9/11? Oh yeah, he did.

Too bad no one listened.