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  #51  
AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 03:22 PM       
Um... Blanco, buddy... "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are only terms used in the abortion ballpark. They don't extend to other issues.
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  #52  
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 03:24 PM       


YO SAY. Summer love will stimulate my heart tonight
Mysterious mermaid barefoot all alone
Wishing revealing it's the fruit I want to eat
Precious love is always eating up my heart

Uncheatable her shapely line
A convict of her lithe crime
Save me and wrap around one more time
Make a change and turn around under a wave
Back on ground holding scolding the darker side

The summer is burning a hole in my heart
Stripping me down to hot temptation
It's OK to give in be beaten by lust, summer wind,
Burning air a scandal affair

Fairies, summer folk will stimulate my fantasies
Mysterious mermaid barefoot all alone
Wishing revealing it's the fruit I want to eat
Precious love is always eating up my heart

Fagged out that's you and me, gave you the better side of me
This town is gloomy nothing to be found
Don't wanna stop or cool down, go forever not hang around
Don't wanna hear a boring joke in my open mind
The sky is burning a firework delight
Painting colour through the night
Holding me tightly I grab the light, summer wind,
Burning fire, getting me high

Fairies, summer love will burn up my fantasies
Hurricane in my heart whirling desire
I wanna say what's on my mind give you all I have to give
You and me freely taking all night

The city is burning a hole in my soul
It's making me drunk cold wine kiss
I want to feel the touch of the sea, summer spray,
Refreshing air, taking me where

Fairies, summer folk will stimulate my heart tonight
Belly button mermaid barefoot all alone
Daisuke is telling me it's the only place to be
There's no problem take a chance and you'll be there

YO SAY. I say who do you wanna do it with
You can say goodbye to a night on your own
If you want precious love I can give it anytime
Revealing stealing never getting dry
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  #53  
UnDeath UnDeath is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 04:24 PM       
My point is nearly identical to Proto's. The age limit should be longer than 3 months, imho, since Ive heared of cases where women didnt know that they were pregnant up untill 5+ months. They even had a bloody... discharge... every month which was equivilant to a light period.
And on to the case of other contraceptives, they can fail. I know that you all have heared of cases where someone gets pregnant using the Pill and a condom (if I have, you most likely have, I rarely pay attention to current events). And if that happens, those involved would think that they are in the clear, and not take the Morning After Pill. Let alone, from what I hear, the side effects of the pills are quite unpleasant, so very few people would take them "just in case".
As for adoption, pregnancy can alter ones life almost as much as actually having a kid, albeit only for a few months. Then theres the case of the kid becoming the equivalent of an orphan, due to nobody wanting to adopt, but rather having their own damn kids.
Then theres the cases of people dumping their kids in the dumpster.
And making those responsible take care of the kid, uh... no. Babies end your life as you know it. Period. How many people what their lives to change entirely because of an accident? Hmm..?
Let abortion be up to the individual, not everyone has to do it. Morals are just a matter of opinion. Many people think its also morally wrong for a white girl to be dating a black man, for example.

well, Ive written way to fucking much, and Ill be supprised if anyone reads this long winded rant.
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  #54  
Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:02 PM       
Exactly. To all those people who are strongly against abortion, here is my advice to you: DON'T FUCKING HAVE ONE.

Problem solved. It's just that simple. Now, on to the next issue.
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  #55  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:03 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
Um... Blanco, buddy... "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are only terms used in the abortion ballpark. They don't extend to other issues.
I know. Thats my point. I just want to dump the misleading terms.
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  #56  
UnDeath UnDeath is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoclown
Exactly. To all those people who are strongly against abortion, here is my advice to you: DON'T FUCKING HAVE ONE.

Problem solved. It's just that simple. Now, on to the next issue.
SMARTAST CLOWN EVAR. Couldnt have said it better myself.
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  #57  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:12 PM       
So, if you don't want to bomb Iraq, DON'T JOIN THE ARMY.
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  #58  
Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:13 PM       
Riiiiiight. Cause that's a parallel that makes sense.
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  #59  
HickMan HickMan is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:30 PM       
I don't understand how abortion is a great debate for the majority anyway. Most of us are males from the ages of 14 to 30. How does this pertain to most of us anyway? Yeah Proto, you're the person that makes the most sense on these boards. If you dont want abortion, dont fuck around. This isn't much of a debate if you ask me. Abortion? What a lame-ass topic.
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  #60  
Burned In Effigy Burned In Effigy is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:34 PM       
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Originally Posted by Protoclown
Riiiiiight. Cause that's a parallel that makes sense.
Explain how it doesn't.
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  #61  
UnDeath UnDeath is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:38 PM       
do you want responsibility of my kid if I accidentaly knock my girlfriend up? Im serious.
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  #62  
ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:41 PM       
yes yes if you don't like abortion dont get one! i third that statement. may it forever be your choice!

Quote:
So, if you don't want to bomb Iraq, DON'T JOIN THE ARMY.
sheesh, that doesnt fit one bit!

my taxes don't pay for abortions but my taxes DO pay for fucking BOMBS!! my taxes pay to subsidize oil, lockheed martin, and the thousands of subsidiaries that make money on militarily stealing oil rights from other countries! that's a pathetic comparison.
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  #63  
Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:44 PM       
So far, in my admittedly limited experience here, it seems ProtoClown's job here is to discourage discussion. All I'm hearing is "Stop Talking! Stop Talking!"

He seems to be akin to our Gator (which is a tremendous compliment, BTW) but just a little too worried about newbies.

WE DON'T BITE! :D
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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  #64  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 06:50 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
Um... Blanco, buddy... "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are only terms used in the abortion ballpark. They don't extend to other issues.
I know. Thats my point. I just want to dump the misleading terms.
Heh, yeah, it's interesting how "pro-life" often has little to do with the sole preservation of life. For example, besides (from personal experience) Catholics, how many bible thumpers calling for the end of abortion can likewise justify the State taking it upon itself to be judge/jury/and executioner of another life...?
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  #65  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 07:11 PM       
Kevin, I pointed that out.

The reason for my Iraq statement was because those people dont' affect me, so what do I care? I am part of the first generation to be mowed down by Roe v Wade. Obviously, I have a little stake in its status.

Quote:
my taxes don't pay for abortions
Yes, they do. They subsidize the clinics, the doctors, Planned Parenthood, and tons of other people who profit off abortion. And since when did you care about the money?

And what does me being in my 20s and possesing a penis have to do with whether or not I can opine on abortion? Thats just retarded. I'm not black, does that mean I can't vote on a civil rights bill? Or that I can't have some insight on the matter?
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  #66  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 07:19 PM       
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Originally Posted by El Blanco
Kevin, I pointed that out.
Sorry, sir!
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  #67  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 07:21 PM       
Sorry, didn't mean to come off like a dick there.
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  #68  
Burned In Effigy Burned In Effigy is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 07:26 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
Kevin, I pointed that out.

The reason for my Iraq statement was because those people dont' affect me, so what do I care? I am part of the first generation to be mowed down by Roe v Wade. Obviously, I have a little stake in its status.

Quote:
my taxes don't pay for abortions
Yes, they do. They subsidize the clinics, the doctors, Planned Parenthood, and tons of other people who profit off abortion. And since when did you care about the money?

And what does me being in my 20s and possesing a penis have to do with whether or not I can opine on abortion? Thats just retarded. I'm not black, does that mean I can't vote on a civil rights bill? Or that I can't have some insight on the matter?
Point, Match, Game.
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  #69  
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 07:39 PM       
I screwed up so this is going to be out of order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helm
aos]The existence of the abortion is here ... duh, right? What I mean is that now that the idea of an "out" is out there, people with an unwanted pregnancy (for whatever reason) will seek them whether they're illegal or not. This is NOT a statement for against the government paying for abortions. I'll set that aside. What I'm saying is that if an abortion is illegal, then people will find some nasty, back alley, unsterile, unqualified place to get them anyway. I'd rather it be legal, sterile, and out in the open. It's not something I'd prefer for myself should I be in the situation but I'd at least like to leave the decision open to anyone who has to face this dilemma.
This was actually one of the points utilized during the Roe v Wade case. The Roe camp had stated that if the Courts were not going to legalize abortions, woman would in essence be forced to go to back alleyways and have them performed in unsterile conditions. Now if anyone understands the nature of an abortion, they realize that it is an invasive procedure. Thus infection in those types of conditions is highly probable. And if such a large quanity of people were having back alley abortions, than a large quanity of people would be required to see a docter over vaginal and uteral infections. With such an existance of an epidimec, it would have been of great importance. Thus it is plausible to believe that the same deterances that affected the number of back alley abortions before 1976, would affect them now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helm
I appreciate you for going for any other angle than the "WHAT? YOU WILL BURN IN HELL HEATHEN!!111" Raven, but still, what you just posted is a bit silly. Of course it's personal belief. Why cant a belief be based on quantifiable reasoning, however, I do not see. You have no point.
I'm gonna have to make this one quicker than it was before. Sorry about that. Sentience is essentially an undeterminable variable. It is based upon the belief that a being has to be self-aware, without fully understanding exactly what makes a being self-aware. Thus it can not be based upon reason. It is based upon faith. Much like the utilization of the soul for determination of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
So someone with 47 chromosomes or other defect isn't essentially human and therefore can be aborted no matter what?

By using genetics as a basis, you can only define physically what is human and what is not. And, the end result is dependant on the conditions that the cell has to grow in.

Again, look at my cells from here and there example. They've got human DNA chromosomes in them, so do they count as human too? We can keep organs alive in machines, so because they have chromosomes and DNA, should they be granted rights? "In essence" they are human, too.

I think you might have misunderstood me; I meant better education about the risks involved in unprotected sex, not better education overall, although that couldn't hurt.

Regardless, though, I didn't meet a single person in high school with an average above 80% that got pregnant themselves or got someone pregnant. Better educated people tend to evaluate the consequences more.
Alright lets try this again. Under a chromosome method they would not be considered human, that is why utilizing DNA would be better. But that is, as you stated impractical.

But the end result will always come out to be human. No matter the manner of conditions you place it under. For the DNA is inherently human. Thus the being is inherently human.

Is the cell "alive" or is it just a part of a living organism? Is the organ "alive" or merely functioning?

I meant the same thing you did. But simple teaching them the use of contraceptives, and the consequences of sex isn't enough of a deterent. Or at the very least a complete deterent. For without being forced to view the risks it has outside of the realm of 4th or 5th person, teenagers will continue to foolishly believe it won't happen to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoclown
That said, limits certainly do need to be maintained as far as a cut-off date where abortion is no longer allowed in the pregnancy, when the fetus is developed past a certain point. Agreeing on when exactly life begins is a difficult matter however, since both sides seem to differ in their definition and criteria somewhat.

I would rather see abortions performed in a safe, clean, clinical environment than in a back alley with a clothes hanger. Keep it legal, there's no other way. This is America, we should have the freedom to make our own choices.
I would touch on your other point, but Immortal Goat and myself have already touched on it. And I have admitted that certain exclusions would be needed. Agreeing on when life begins though is a simple matter of determining a method for which to answer that question. Do we use religion? No any law based around religion is in essence state sponsering a religion. This leaves logic and science. How about we utilize those.

But to make abortion illegal doesn't remove that choice. It merely creates a deterent. As does making murder illegal. I can still choose to murder someone, but because of the law against it I have a reason to choose not too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnDeath
My point is nearly identical to Proto's. The age limit should be longer than 3 months, imho, since Ive heared of cases where women didnt know that they were pregnant up untill 5+ months. They even had a bloody... discharge... every month which was equivilant to a light period.
And on to the case of other contraceptives, they can fail. I know that you all have heared of cases where someone gets pregnant using the Pill and a condom (if I have, you most likely have, I rarely pay attention to current events). And if that happens, those involved would think that they are in the clear, and not take the Morning After Pill. Let alone, from what I hear, the side effects of the pills are quite unpleasant, so very few people would take them "just in case".
As for adoption, pregnancy can alter ones life almost as much as actually having a kid, albeit only for a few months. Then theres the case of the kid becoming the equivalent of an orphan, due to nobody wanting to adopt, but rather having their own damn kids.
Then theres the cases of people dumping their kids in the dumpster.
And making those responsible take care of the kid, uh... no. Babies end your life as you know it. Period. How many people what their lives to change entirely because of an accident? Hmm..?
Let abortion be up to the individual, not everyone has to do it. Morals are just a matter of opinion. Many people think its also morally wrong for a white girl to be dating a black man, for example.
So we should allow for the victimization of a human being solely for the gain of someone to irresponsible to take proper measures? Or being willing to have a child?

There are far more than two types of contraceptives in existance. I have a friend who uses double condom and spermacide.

Unwanted children are a tragedy. And if I were running the adoption agency I wouldn't allow them to put the child up. But thankfully a large number of babies are adopted. They are picked up quickly, and willingly.

Anyone dumping their child in a dumpster is committing a crime and should be treated as the criminal they are. And yes it is tragic that the irresponsible people had their lives alter. Sorry if this sounds condescending didn't really intend it to sound that way.

I'm also not basing this on morals. I'm basing it off science, logic, and the rights of all human beings.
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  #70  
ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 08:05 PM       
alright, my bad.. we do subsidise planned parenthood

the arguement if you dont support bombing iraq don't join the service still doesnt make sense to me. our taxes are spent by our government.. we only have a tiny say about what they do with them.

i guess i do support my taxes going to kill fetuses but that doesnt mean i should support my taxes going to kill iraqis, afghanis etc.
fetuses dont retaliate fetuses arent a country, a people, or a religion.

i wish we could choose what we want our taxes to pay for individually.. but damn the beurocracy that would create would be monstrous. :miffed
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  #71  
theapportioner theapportioner is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 08:21 PM       
Again, MORNING AFTER PILLS. Maybe this will shut you all up.

I've said this before, but we should first be more concerned with the people who are living NOW, rather than potential people who have no perception, much less self-understanding, that they exist at all. Only once we've solved these problems, should we then worry about the embryos.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 08:30 PM       
*Ahem*

Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Okay, I think a summary is needed:

So far, the main arguments that has anything behind it for abortion is that some people were raped, some cannot financially afford it, kids will still have sex anyway, and some will die if it isn't done.

Rape Issue: Proper education on morning after pills in health classes should reduce the issue. As the last straw, adoption is the answer for an unwanted child.

Financial Problems: Same as rape, except adoption will be much more frequent than the use of pills.

Still Have Sex: Some will, but that falls only on them. There are many alternatives to intercourse that do not induce pregnancy: oral sex, hand jobs, leg jobs, toys, etc. Even if one does get pregnant, it is all too possible to give the baby up for adoption.

Harm to the Mother: The exception to the rule. If it is believed that the mother has a probable chance of dying, she may decide whether or not she wants an abortion.

The arguments on whether or not fetuses are human are not are irrelevant to the posters point. The point is that if adoption practices were banned or limited, fewer minor offences would occur. That is something I agree with.
I think we have lost sight of the original point, and as such, you have forced me to repost my previous summary.
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  #73  
Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 08:41 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapportioner
Again, MORNING AFTER PILLS. Maybe this will shut you all up.

I've said this before, but we should first be more concerned with the people who are living NOW, rather than potential people who have no perception, much less self-understanding, that they exist at all. Only once we've solved these problems, should we then worry about the embryos.
So I'm guessing your against technology right? And are all for mass population reduction. Correct?
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  #74  
UnDeath UnDeath is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 08:55 PM       
It all boils down to wether or not the fetus is "alive" or not. I believe that it isnt. Even if it was, isnt it more "humane" to put something out of its misery, rather than let it have a prolong existance in misery? bah, whatever. This is a lot like arguing about drug laws. Illegal or not, people would still do them, so why punish em?
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  #75  
Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 09:00 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnDeath
It all boils down to wether or not the fetus is "alive" or not. I believe that it isnt. Even if it was, isnt it more "humane" to put something out of its misery, rather than let it have a prolong existance in misery? bah, whatever. This is a lot like arguing about drug laws. Illegal or not, people would still do them, so why punish em?
The same applies for homicide.
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