Question of omniscience

[Big McLargehuge]

One thing that has always bothered me about God (especiall the Christian version) is how can we have free will if there is an omniscient God that knows all past, present, and future? I mean, wouldn't it's knowledge of th future set the path of the future?

[Sethomas]

SOMEBODY OBVIOUSLY HASN'T READ MY THESIS, OR ELSE THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN OLD NEWS TO HIM.

[The_Rorschach]

Hate to break it to you Thomas, but your Thesis isn't exactly groundbreaking.

That question was old long before your great grand pappy was popping cherries.

[Sethomas]

I know that I wasn't the first person to come up with that. In my thesis I allude to the rebuttles to it made by Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas, all of them having dealt with the stoic philosophy that had been around since pre-Hellenistic Greece.

[The_Rorschach]

Is that the nerd equivilant to name dropping?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even smart enough to be a nerd, but it kind of struck me as funny how you phrased that, it comes out sounding either desperately defensive, or haughty. Either tone is kind of smirk worthy.

You might like Phaedrus, Seth. Brilliant man, if disturbed. Opened my eyes a bit. No pretension though. Rather proletarian by Ivory Tower standards, but insightful. Not so much concerned by What Lies Beyond as he was with what was lying before him.

[Big McLargehuge]

NO i didn't read your thesis, and I don't want to, do me a favor and sum up what you (and others) have said.

[DamnthatDavid]

Paths in existance. Breaking off, going millions of ways.
I always figured God Knows all possible Futures, all possiblities, all choices. And the choices we make narrows down the possible futures to 2 outcomes.

Otherwise, why create humanity? Why not just dump a truck load of souls in hell, and a few in heaven instantly? Why bother with all this Earth Shit.

Or, it could be like watching a Movie you have already seen.
If you seen it once, why watch it again?

[Sethomas]

Lazy cunt.

Boethius and Aquinas copped out by addressing the issue and reaffirming the existence of free will without rationalizing it with God's prescience. Augustine explained that humans have free will, but free will itself is a process that may be sufficiently understood by an infinite intelligence. That is, God knows the future because he knows what you will choose in your life, but he doesn't do the choosing himself.

I found Augustine's answer satisfactory only in a context that ignores the principles of determinism. That is, it's a good answer for the idiot's guide to metaphysics, but it doesn't withstand a modernist perspective. In my theory, the question is superfluous since conscious will is an illusory feeling, a passive emotion. This bounces the issue back to the concept of ethereal will, which is unique to my theory. In my theory, God does not prognosticate ethereal will because both EW and God himself are eternal and abiding, so chronology goes out the window.

[Big McLargehuge]

Are you suggesting that free will is an illusion? Cause if so that is an excellent way to side-step the argument but it doesn't really resolve the problem.

[Sethomas]

I avoid the term "free" will, and generally hold that it doesn't exist. Conscious will, its equivalent in psychology and my theory, exists merely as an illusion.

The most metaphysically fundamental explanation is that God sees all of time at once as eternity is parallel to every moment, so knowing humanity's every action isn't anything remarkable.

If you don't want to understand my theory, the only alternative befitting the "voice of reason" is to adopt determinism, in which the whole issue is moot because free will doesn't exist anyways.

[Perndog]

So how does the theory that conscious will is an illusion affect you? Do you act or think differently when you believe that you're not actually in control? This has always been the most intriguing detail of the subject for me.

[Sethomas]

My slogan for a couple of months was "The sensation of time is not the active deliberation of thoughts and actions but rather the passive discovery of those thoughts and actions one was predisposed to make." I thought it was catchy.

So, yeah, I often found myself thinking outside of my body, wondering as a distant observer what the hell the chemicals in Seth's head would make him do next. There have been pleasant and dire surprises. Things became simpler when I resumed belief in the soul, but I was then challeneged to rationalize conscious will in terms of Coeternalism. I had an explanation held in abstraction in my head that was good enough for me, but Spinster pointed out the drastic need for me to articulate this matter. So I wrote two sentences tonight in the FAQ on my computer and decided that I won't look at it again at least until tomorrow after class.

“The reductionist worldview is chilling and impersonal. It has to be accepted as it is, not because we like it, but because that is the way the world works." - Steven Weinberg.

This is why I'm so passionate about my theory. Either accept that the soul is Coeternal with God, or ethics and emotion go down the shitter.

[DamnthatDavid]

You know... all this fuss, all this stress, all this wasted time coming up with beliefs that are, most likely, totally wrong.

It just seems like a waste of time. Go through your life, and suceed in something worthwhile, and not bother with the finer details.
Why don't you try manually working your stomach? Or increasing the blood flow to parts of your body on command? Scientist understand how that works, and you will have alot more success in that then trying to understand how God works.

[AChimp]

Why is it always the belief of religious people that without God and/or a soul, ethics are meaningless?

That's a bunch of crap. I think of myself as sitting on the atheist/agnostic border. I really depends on which side of the bed I wake up on in the morning, and in the end, I really don't give a damn either way. That doesn't mean I can't tell the difference between good and bad according to my cultural norms.

Seth, you should post an abstract of your thesis... if you've written one already, your site is blocked at my work for some reason.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by AChimp

Why is it always the belief of religious people that without God and/or a soul, ethics are meaningless?

Because they're narrow-minded?

[Emu]

Because the concept of a human being working toward good cause without the Ultimate Good on his side is ludicrous at best.

[The One and Only...]

Because morality is necessarily absolute if good is to exist, and most have the view that morality must be transcendent if it is to be absolute (the only exception I can think of was Rand, and her form of morality was hardly sufficiently proven).

We must not forget that it has been proposed that free will is a requirement for good and evil to exist in the first place.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

We must not forget that it has been proposed that free will is a requirement for good and evil to exist in the first place.

Well, it's a requirement for people to be held responsible for good or evil actions.

[AChimp]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

Because morality is necessarily absolute if good is to exist, and most have the view that morality must be transcendent if it is to be absolute (the only exception I can think of was Rand, and her form of morality was hardly sufficiently proven).

Crap. The concept of good evolves over generations and is dictated by culture. If I was an Aztec, I'd think that sacrificing humans was a good thing.

[The One and Only...]

True, but that is merely the Aztec's perception of good. Good is not good because we think that it is good.

We must not forget that morality cannot contradict itself if it is to exist. Thus, if good is to truly exist, it must be absolute so as to avoid the contradictions of relativism.

[mburbank]

Shouldn't you be in school?

[Sethomas]

I posted an abstract in the thesis thread for you jerks.

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Shouldn't you be in school?

Teacher work day.

[AChimp]

Absolute good only exists in your imagination. The universe is true neutral.

[punkgrrrlie10]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

Teacher work day.

Achimp: tis possible to have universal good, we can never find it though. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Proving existence itself can't really be done with certainty so it's easier to say - it doesn't exist.

And just in general, Descartes was a fuck head...that is all.