Enough lessons from these reactionary bigots!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think this one might be the big winner in Tehran, btw.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Something else that might be of interest in this debate:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0...1480744,00.html

If you need any encouragement to check it out, it relates to this picture of Jesus:

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"The book has been published in Austria, Germany, France, Portugal, the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Korea. In some countries, it has sparked protests and a Czech lawmaker wanted the author fined. But in no other country has the book been banned."

Contrast this to the riots, destruction, and death threats going on throughout the Islamic world, and this serves as a pretty poor example for your argument.

The fact that this guy is facing jail time in Greece is absurd, I'll grant you that. But it doesn't quite compare.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

and this serves as a pretty poor example for your argument.

And what was my argument in the first place? "This is wrong." Was I making excuses for their behavior? No. I already admitted to the fact that they were grossly overreacting and I even used another example (what happened in Holland) to back my statement up. I brought this merely for the sake of discussion, I'm not saying, "Hey look! It's not just the Muslims!"

But when a moron concludes that this is the result of Islam, that's when things get retarded. It has everything to do with these people's culture and upbringing, and nothing to do with their personal beliefs. I consider myself a devout Muslim, but never in my life would I dare to threaten someone with violence especially over something so pitiful like this. I would defend my faith and my prophet, place him in the highest platform and leave it at that. 65 people in Bahrain were the only ones protesting. 65. And they, too, made the news, giving everyone the impression that all of Bahrain was reacting as badly. Guess what? Most of these people were street kids who were just happy to find a reason to riot and yell at shit. Members of parliament are burning flags to take the attention off of them, since they were being heavily critisized.

I think that should say something about those who blindly assume it's "Islam!" and not just the stupidity of the few. This goes for "terrorism" in general, as well. The website I provided earlier which apologized to Denmark and Norway actually represents the opinions of the majority.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.

And what was my argument in the first place? "This is wrong." Was I making excuses for their behavior? No. I already admitted to the fact that they were grossly overreacting and I even used another example (what happened in Holland) to back my statement up. I brought this merely for the sake of discussion, I'm not saying, "Hey look! It's not just the Muslims!"

Sorry, it just seemed like that was the implication. You contributed it to the debate, so I took it the wrong way.

So then let's discuss it-- what does this example in Greece say? How does it compare to what's going on in the Middle East???

Guess what? Most of these people were street kids who were just happy to find a reason to riot and yell at shit. Members of parliament are burning flags to take the attention off of them, since they were being heavily critisized.

I think that should say something about those who blindly assume it's "Islam!" and not just the stupidity of the few. This goes for "terrorism" in general, as well.

I think you're right, that it is a little bit of Islam, a little bit of tyranny, poverty, and all that stuff. I guess maybe the world would like to see perhaps a louder condemnation of that tiny, vocal minority.

The website I provided earlier which apologized to Denmark and Norway actually represents the opinions of the majority.

How do you know this? I think you're right, that no country or faith should be judged simply for what a vocal minority does, but I think the response by the press in Tehran is a fine example of the silent majority just not "getting it."

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

So then let's discuss it-- what does this example in Greece say? How does it compare to what's going on in the Middle East???

It's exactly the same issue. Jyllands Posten had discussed to print previous cartoons they'd brought of Jesus and the star of David etc., but has dropped the plans. This is one of the previous ones:

[Abcdxxxx]

"The caricatures amounted to a "conspiracy by Zionists who were angry because of the victory of Hamas," he said, referring to the Palestinian militant group that won a surprise landslide victory in last month's elections." From "Iran Leader Denounces Prophet Cartoons"
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060207/ap/d8fk8db80.html

This one is extra funny because the cartoons were printed in September, Egypt reprinted them in October without any riots, and the elections happened FOUR MONTHS LATER in December.

Anyway, there is evidence this entire thing was provoked by the Danish Imams. http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004505.htm

So, okay, if you argue that the cartoons offense is specifically religious, and the reaction is merely political, that's fine....but how can one say it's misleading to claim this is non-representative of Muslims, when for a fact, that IS the representation for the majority of Islam. I don't think it's a question, obviously the majority of Muslims are opposed to this, but does their representation reflect their feelings, and has moderate Islam stopped it? There are plenty of poverty stricken, oppressed people in the world who are peacefull. Why is it these things are only happening to this extent, in one specific culture? If it's not the "result of Islam" then okay, who is it a result of ?

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

So, okay, if you argue that the cartoons offense is specifically religious, and the reaction is merely political, that's fine....but how can one say it's misleading to claim this is non-representative of Muslims, when for a fact, that IS the representation for the majority of Islam. I don't think it's a question, obviously the majority of Muslims are opposed to this, but does their representation reflect their feelings, and has moderate Islam stopped it? There are plenty of poverty stricken, oppressed people in the world who are peacefull. Why is it these things are only happening to this extent, in one specific culture? If it's not the "result of Islam" then okay, who is it a result of ?

Yeah that's why haiti is the paradise it is, It's Islam that causes riots.

The majority of the millions of muslims aren't throwing bricks and molotv cocktails and I don't see how you can blame moderate muslims for not stopping them, riots aren't exactly something that have an on/off switch, do the people who are setting fires look they are responding to reason? Since we practice the religion it's our duty to stand infront of rioters and oppose them? Do people who are boycotting everything danish seem like they aren't completely brainwashed into hating anything that oppose it's views

There is no easy answer to why these people are acting like this. There are books upon books on the subject of middle eastern/ western relations. If you think this is only about the cartoons you have no idea what you're talking about.

Forgive me if I'm a bit edgy, but it just seems to me anytime anyone brings anything up about muslims you constantly proclaim that Islam is an inherently flawed religion

[ziggytrix]

I read something in yesterdays WSJ that pretty much traced most of this shit back to one radical in Denmark. He went so far with his "let's get Muslims rield up at the Danes" act as to include ADDITIONAL cartoons which were never ran in the paper, including one picture of a pig with a caption of "This is the REAL picture of Mohammed" in the propaganda he distrubuted in the Middle East.

Originally Posted by The Dallas Morning News

A Call for Civility: Both sides out of line over Danish cartoons


05:22 AM CST on Tuesday, February 7, 2006

ADanish newspaper delivered a totally insensitive insult with its call last fall for cartoonists to draw pictures of the prophet Muhammad. Such depictions violate Muslim law, and the newspaper had proposed the assignment to test whether cartoonists would censor themselves.

Now, months after publication, radical Islamists have used this ridiculous cartoon experiment as an excuse to manipulate violent political demonstrations and destruction across Europe and the Middle East.

The provocation – almost a "let's kick the anthill and see what happens" mentality – and the virulent, deadly protests that have followed show both sides at their worst.

We agree with the many who say the radicals' behavior is indefensible. In fact, in Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani suggested that militant Muslims are distorting Islam's image. In the U.S., the Council on American-Islamic Relations said, "Everyone has the right to peacefully protest defamatory attacks on their religious figures, but protesters should not reinforce existing stereotypes by resorting to violence or inflammatory rhetoric."

We're also outraged by the Danish newspaper's childish stunt, just as we are by toxic depictions of Jews and Christians in extremist Muslim publications and schools. All must end, because such behavior fosters a climate of hate and religious intolerance.

That's why this editorial board sees this nasty mess not so much as a free speech issue as about respect for religious sensibilities and the need to embrace the idea of discourse over carnage.

We recognize that Europe remains shaken by the brutal murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh for defaming Islam in 2004. And, like much of Europe, Denmark is confronting snarly issues as a result of growing Muslim populations.

But there's no humor or purpose in mindlessly provoking religious discord. Nor is there justification for turning an insult into an opportunity for fiery, hostile rampages.

We'll never accomplish anything until both sides quit kicking the anthill.

(emphasis mine)

Hey ABC, is that more moral equivocation? Cuz that's exactly how I feel about this whole damn thing.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

riots aren't exactly something that have an on/off switch

No, they take four months of planning, and clerics inciting the violence.

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

Since we practice the religion it's our duty to stand infront of rioters and oppose them?

What bothers you more? Islam being blamed, or crimes against humanity done in the name of Islam ? Do it for the sanctity of your own religion at the very least.

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

There is no easy answer to why these people are acting like this. There are books upon books on the subject of middle eastern/ western relations.

You're right, it's obviously not about cartoons...or land.... or any of that shit. So, honestly? I don't give a shit WHY they act like that. I don't want to understand the motivation, or extend tolerance towards militant radicals or their symphethisers. I read far more explanations for the violence then condemnations. I don't find these events a healthy entree to discussion, and better understanding. I JUST WANT CRIMINAL AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOR TO STOP!

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

Forgive me if I'm a bit edgy, but it just seems to me anytime anyone brings anything up about muslims you constantly proclaim that Islam is an inherently flawed religion

Forgive me if I come down harsh on Muslims, but my own people are Islamofascist Enemy #1.

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

No, they take four months of planning, and clerics inciting the violence.

That's exactly what makes it politically motivated, It had to be hyped and propogated by clerics. It's not written in the Koran that if someone insults Allah or Mohammad, that you need to riot and go fucking nuts. It's the fault of the people, not the religion.

What bothers you more? Islam being blamed, or crimes against humanity done in the name of Islam ? Do it for the sanctity of your own religion at the very least.

How? Is my soothing voice of reason going to calm the tempers of years of edgy relations. I am downright denouncing these action and so are moderate muslims. There is nothing else we can do.

You're right, it's obviously not about cartoons...or land.... or any of that shit. So, honestly? I don't give a shit WHY they act like that. I don't want to understand the motivation, or extend tolerance towards militant radicals or their symphethisers. I read far more explanations for the violence then condemnations. I don't find these events a healthy entree to discussion, and better understanding. I JUST WANT CRIMINAL AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOR TO STOP!

I only quoted this for completeness

Forgive me if I come down harsh on Muslims, but my own people are Islamofascist Enemy #1.

That certainly makes it right for you to always condemn Islam, every time you get a chance. No matter how many muslims dislike jews, they still have to consider it a valid religion. Seeing as we believe that the Jews and Christians are people of the Book. We also believe that Moses was a prophet of God. And we believe that Abraham built the Kabbah.

Regardless of what muslims believe about other religions, It doesn't give youa blank check to make claims that Islam the religion is wrong because Muslim people aren't in love with the jews.

[Abcdxxxx]

1) I haven't said the religion is wrong, I've said it's being practiced in a manner which is wrong. Which is essentially what you've said.

2) Why should we seperate the religion from it's followers? Especially when the moderates themselves refuse to seperate the more extremist followers in question, from the religion ? My only interest in Islam is as it's practiced. If these issues could be pinpointed to say, the Wahhabists, I'd refer to Wahhabists, but that's not the case.

3) I don't dispute that the Koran says nice things about Jews and Christians...but the lack of Jews and Christians in Islamic nations overshadows that. The Koran also says that Israel should belong to Jews.... but few Muslims ever evoke that argument.

[ScruU2wice]

You can't just filter out people you don't want in your religion. They are practicing all the other forms of the religion right, but they are just being ridiculously violent. It's no fault but the people who are rioting, and the twisted politics they are being used in.

[Abcdxxxx]

We don't fault you for the actions of another, we fault you for your REACTION, and RESPONSE.

Why should I care if they're good observant Muslims? You want ME to create a seperation between the religion and the politicized religion, when that seperation does not exist, even in your mind. You seem to identify with our criticism of these people just the same, and feel the need to defend your religion in the process. Why?

You want us to recognize the vast majority of citizens are upstanding and peacefull right? I do. They are. Now in return, recognize that when the vast majority of us critisize Islamic criminals who are operating under a doctrine of theocratic supremacy, it doesn't mean we think the entire Muslim population are hitting themselves over the head with rocks in one big Ashoura ritual.

[Abcdxxxx]

Finally. This is a start.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/689

[kahljorn]

"We don't fault you for the actions of another, we fault you for your REACTION, and RESPONSE. "

Maybe this should've been:

'We don't fault you for the actions of another, we fault someone else in your religion for reaction, and response.'

because it seems like in that statement you really were holding him at fault by saying, "Your" despite the fact that he had no part in the, "Reactions" and "Response" that you were talking about. How could it be his reaction and response unless he was doing it himself? Racist.

And who's we?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

And who's we?

Him and the ones whose excuse for living is justified. You know what I mean, those over-educated guys who know exactly what's best for the rest of the world. Don't question him. Follow him confidently. He'll lead you to the gates of paradise, man. Just you wait! Go ABC!

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru expressed his reaction, and his lack of desire to respond or be held accountable. It's not racist to acknowledge that. What IS racist are generalized boycotts, attacking a government who didn't sponsor the cartoons, and it's citizens all for the act of one person. Again, hypocrisy.

[kahljorn]

How does that fault lie in him or anybody not directly associated with the people who actually did the rioting? I'm sure there's somebody out there in the world who is of the same ethnicity/religion as you screwing someone over, acting the hypocrite and being a general jackass. Does that make you or everyone else in your family/religion a jackass/hypocrite/bad-man?

Why should HE be held reliable if HE didn't do anything? What the fuck is he going to do, send them all an angry e-mail expressing his opinion through the friendssharehugkissmuslimnetwork? Then will they apologize and castrate themselves? What is your point here?

The actions I speak of above are known as PREJUDICE and furthermore DISCRIMINATION. You are being a RACIST, a BIGOT. Your type of mentality leads to the type of mentality you are preaching against. How's that for hypocricy?

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah, my right to freedom of speech is on par with the violence i'm critisizing. Wow, you kids are bright. You act like moderate Muslims are staying objective, and avoiding discourse on the topic completely. Instead they're saying I can explain the anger, and agree with it on some level, I just don't agree with the means. A true moderate will defend the seperation of Mosque and State.

Look, the biggest critics of Israel are Jews. When Hasidics Rabbis were giving babies herpes through circumcision rituals, Jews didn't call for tolerance, or use the opportunity to have a discussion about the merits of Judaism...in fact, we didn't rally together over the case, at all. So again, your attempt at moral equivalency is misleading. A true moderate takes offense at the desecrations against all peoples, and faiths...ESPECIALLY THEIR OWN.


This is making the rounds in various forms, around the internet, uncredited:

* Muslim officials block the exit where schoolgirls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
* A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
* Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
* Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
* Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims ? No Muslim outrage

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule?

Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago … "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Scru expressed his reaction, and his lack of desire to respond or be held accountable. It's not racist to acknowledge that. What IS racist are generalized boycotts, attacking a government who didn't sponsor the cartoons, and it's citizens all for the act of one person. Again, hypocrisy.

You're mistaking desire for ability. I am not any more powerful than you to change the minds of people who think a cartoon is a valid enough crticism of their religion to destroy things. and think that burning everything danish is evil because one dumbshit thought he was a fucking satirical genius.

But you're right I don't think I should be held accountable. Do you think I should be?

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Yeah, my right to freedom of speech is on par with the violence i'm critisizing. Wow, you kids are bright. You act like moderate Muslims are staying objective, and avoiding discourse on the topic completely. Instead they're saying I can explain the anger, and agree with it on some level, I just don't agree with the means. A true moderate will defend the seperation of Mosque and State.

Ok it's a good think you know what a true moderat muslim should and shouldn't be.

I can't even understand what you want me to say. Rioting is wrong. check. You should denounce fanatic muslims. check. It says that Israel belongs to the jews in the Koran. I didn't even argue wit you on that eventhough you didn't back it up with anything, just to save face.

What am I suppose to say now? That muslims shouldn't find the comic offensive, because by giving any explanation to what is happening is giving justification? I should be going out of my way to seperate mosque and state in unstable middle eastern countrie? If I scream really reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally loudly I can get muslim people thousands of miles away to put down their torches and have a dinner party with israel? Islam is flawed because a bunch of it's followers are insane and that there is no degree of seperation from the teachings of islam and those who are teaching it?

Is the problems of the middle east the fault of every muslim in the world?

[Abcdxxxx]

I lost you Scru, I have no idea what your point is. You don't want to be held accountable, but you want to defend the Islamic religion. That means you identify with the religion, but not the modern crimes associated with it. The problem with that, is you aren't willing to allow your religion to be held accountable either. Fine, so then who is accountable, and how do we speak out against them without offending you, since you think it's beyond your own means?

Here's the problem........
Islamists are holding the entire Western World responsible for one man's cartoons.
Islamicists routinely attack civilian targets in retribution for State activities.
When anyone attributes these criminal acts to Muslims, when we
know these people label themselves as such....THAT bothers you? What are they? Porcupines? Media creations? Aliens?


Check out the attendance of a Washington DC rally held by Free Muslims Against Terrorism. Not even the supposedly moderate organizations attended.



Contrast that with supposedly "moderate" Jordan, in support of Islamic supremacy, and Facism:



and Bangeledesh:


and India:

[glowbelly]

i'm thinking that might have to do with the fact that there are just a few more muslims in those countries than there are here, but i dunno. i could be wrong.

[MLE]

all i see here for the past majority of posts is people saying that Scru needs to act a certain way since he's muslim. Did you expect him to come on here after muslims were outraged and say "Now wait a minute here! Muslims shouldn't be complaining about any of this! I know cause i am one!"
he, like most of the muslim people i know, respects their religion and 99.9% of the people involved in their religion. He wasn't involved. He didn't feel he had anything to say on the subject at first other than "why don't you step back and look more objectively", and you assume he's rooting for the terrrorists? i'd say that's a little more than bigoted.


y'know, if this was about christians, i don't think we'd be having the same discussion with one of our local christians at the stake.