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  #101  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
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Old Jan 21st, 2006, 04:58 PM       
I meant to say the Romans innovated antisemitism against Jews. The concept of dual nationalities, and allegiance to Talmudic Laws, while living under Roman laws was too much for them to handle.

In terms of the middle east in more modern history, it was Christians who laid down the ground work, which reached a boiling point with the Damascus Affair, and so on. Anyway, we know Jews weren't the only ones persecuted, not by far.

Kahl said: "PPS Jews were mistreated by christians too. In fact, where do you think anti-semitism in europe came from? Very much a religious war."

Again, Jewish persecution is not the result of a religious war as that sentence would suggest. I mentioned the Romans earlier, because the persecution at the hands of Christians in Europe was an extension of the attitudes towards Jews which continues from the Cruxifictian days. Meanwhile, there was never a religious war in Europe concerning Jews, so it's a silly way to try and paint the current war as as a Holy War. There are more appropriate things you could juxtapose. Like say...the crusades. Derrrr.
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Old Jan 21st, 2006, 04:59 PM       
conflict about the Holy Land ? Not back during Mohammeds day. He wasn't that interested in Jerusalem.
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  #103  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 21st, 2006, 05:44 PM       
the time antisemitism really started to spread is the same time the religious war, or "Holy war", with muslims and various other religions was started. In fact, I think one of the popes made an official speech about it or something. That's all I was saying. Quit reading wrong, I only drew it up to compare jewish slaughter in the koran with jewish slaughter with the holy war thing.
Mohummad talked about killing jews alot in the koran, that's what we were talking about. So yes, there were conflicts with the jews.
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  #104  
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Old Jan 21st, 2006, 05:53 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
the time antisemitism really started to spread is the same time the religious war, or "Holy war", with muslims and various other religions was started.

Where'd you get that idea?
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  #105  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 21st, 2006, 08:57 PM       
From Pope Innocent III.
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  #106  
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Old Jan 21st, 2006, 09:10 PM       
Get your timeline correct.

Jews became a diaspora in 587 BCE. A lot led up to that.
The Great Revolt was in 70 CE, with a million Jewish deaths.
Jews mark the destruction of the second Temple as a the pinacle event in Biblical aged anti-semitism.
The first crusade was later, in 1096 CE, and the first christian blood libel against Jews was again later, in 1144 CE.
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  #107  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 21st, 2006, 09:50 PM       
Again, reading comprehension. I said the crusades were when anti-semitism became particularly rampant in EUROPE.
Like there wasn't anti-semitism before that. Remember egypt?

Now I've opened the door to what lead to the holocaust. Seems like not too long ago we were still dealing with the same problems islam is currently dealing with. Women didn't even have real rights in america until this century. Have you forgotten that? Seriously though, quit being so smug. Like your shit don't stink
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  #108  
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 02:26 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
Again, reading comprehension. I said the crusades were when anti-semitism became particularly rampant in EUROPE.
Like there wasn't anti-semitism before that. Remember egypt?
The Great Revolt in 70 C effected Jews in EUROPE.

Like I said, Jews became a Diaspora 517 years before that, at the hands of Anti-Semitism. The first crusade wasn't untill a thousand years later. Anti-semitism was rampant for 1000 years before. The first crusade was an important moment in Islamic history, but not for Jews. In fact, a great deal of Jews were persecuted simply because they were lumped in with Muslims, as being the same thing.

So if we're talking reading comprehension, it's a shame I had to repeat that.

I think you were trying to make some moral equivalency and use United States history to apologize for the current oppression of women in the Middle East? Why bother.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 08:56 AM       
The Crusades helped stop the jihad conquest of Europe. They were a delayed response to centuries of Muslim aggression. They were fighting to recapture Christian lands and defend Christians. And after the Crusades the Muslims resumed their efforts to conquer Europe by Jihad, as they still are today.
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  #110  
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 11:13 AM       
(61) D- Harvey, it's obvious that you haven't read the material. See me after class.
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  #111  
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 01:59 PM       
I was saying your morals, politics and philosophies essentially equate to, "me me me" and you are entirely unable to understand the fact that even our country hasn't been the perfect civilization it is now until this century. Smug ass americans.
They just require some cultural changes, just like we did. Doesn't mean we need to go kill every single muslim out there; that's just hypocricy. Essentially I'm saying you're acting like a child and all the ideas you hold are selfish smug bullshit complexes builtup so you can feel superior-- when you're so obviously not.

P.S. I already conceeded to the fact that antisemitism existed before the crusades-- remember I mentioned egypt-- but the crusades didn't make it any better, did they? Huh? Want to say it did? Were they eatting lolipops every day? Because i dont even think lolipops existed then. So do you want to lie? Considering alot of the anti-semitic sentiments actually originated in/near germany, i found the connection to be interesting. I said that's when it became RAMPANT (essentially leading to CURRENT DAY ANTISEMITISM) not that it JUST THEN BEGUN. Out of the entire world, antisemitism was not prevelant until 1200 ad. Hurrah. Quit picking bullshit things to argue about.

PPS If you really want to get into what caused antisemitism in europe it'd be an obvious, resounding claim that the "Gospel" caused it. So regardless of whatever your claim is, mine will still come out on top. Kay thanks.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 03:31 PM       
"Out of the entire world, antisemitism was not prevelant until 1200 ad. "

That's factually incorrect, but if you're desperate to be right, you can pretend that 1 million deaths over multiple continenants in 70CE doesn't earn the word "prevelant".

As for America's sins? My past sins do not excuse your future fuck ups. Shari'a law stonings are not repparations for the US dragging their feet to allow the right of women to vote. We know your argument can't get past basic moral equivalency, and "so what, look at how bad the Bible and the US" are. It's not a competition. Self examination is great, but it doesn't absolve these nations from their actions.
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  #113  
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 04:52 PM       
First off, I was being so incredibly sarcastic with the 1200 ad antisemitism remark I'm surprised you responded to it.

Secondly, I'm not excusing it, I'm just making an argument why we shouldn't nuke them or go kill all of them like some people were suggesting. Rather, I'm trying to show they aren't unlike we were not too long ago, and there could possibly be a more peaceful solution. If you weren't so busy trying to flash your cock you'd pick up on the fact that none of my original argument was even directed at you.

I was also trying to show the fact that american hatred for muslims has been fucking cultivated for a long time, and isn't just a result of events like 9/11 that somehow cloud your eyes.
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  #114  
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 09:58 PM       
You're so busy worrying about my cock that you can't tell I'm responding to what I think is factual incorrect or and outright ridiculous argument. Try a factual response, instead of hiding behind sarcasm, or fantastical "everybody is bad" acid logic. You keep telling us that there's more substance to your bullshit then just...bullshit.


"american hatred for muslims has been fucking cultivated for a long time, and isn't just a result of events like 9/11 "

The American published of the Koran reported sales quintuppled in the weeks after 9/11. The Koran was on the best sellers list for the first time ever. American awareness, along with hatred, is a direct response to the events of 9/11. That you're even talking about "hatred for Muslims" is a tribute to 9/11. There was hatred towards Muslims before, but 9/11 gave people an actual reason for which to base opinions. The hate crimes reported were in response to 9/11.... to credit all that anti-Islam sentiment to the tradition of The Crusades is wishfull thinking on your part.
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  #115  
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 10:55 PM       
I said it ISNT JUST FROM 9/11. I didn't say it's NOT AT ALL FROM IT. Obviously some of the sentiment is from 9/11, and some of it is from before that. Why are you arguing like I said 9/11 had no effect? Are you even aware of what your point is? You're stupid.
I was saying there was a problem before 9/11 so you bring up how important 9/11 was? You're playing into exactly the type of bias I was talking about. So disillusioned. You think I brought up that point because i was unaware of the effect it had on america? Yea. You think 9/11 and then you think muslim, and yet you imply Osama has no connection with the muslim nations-- not even in your own mind.
I brought up the crusades to show previous problems with the muslims(and also to show how similar our cultures were not too long ago). A connection SHARED. The fact that america is heir to the christian legacy is obvious, the fact that muslims attack "non-believers" makes this a religious problem. Do the muslims have a problem with "Christians"? Do "Christians" have a problem with them? Do you want to argue any of those "Facts"? If not, then quit trying to tear apart well-established historical problems.

The thing I find funny is you actually thought I believed antisemitism didn't begin until the crusades(when a few posts before i clearly mentioned i knew they were abused by the Egyptians), obviously your mind is so cloudy it can't see into anything. The crusades are relative to america; while the attitude egypt or even muslims had towards jews has a minimal effect on us. Do you know why? I dare you to think about it-- consider doing so before your next post. If you can figure it out I'll give you a cookie.

The reason all of this is important is because it basically shows that american's are all, "Me me me" and are willing to force their philosophy/religion/ideas on another nation just as quickly as they would to us. Basically, america is as bad as the muslim nations and I see no reason they shouldn't be stamped out for their bullshit values just like the muslims should. I find that to be a worthy thing to point out.


"or fantastical "everybody is bad" acid logic."

Quit hiding behind, "All muslims are bad and I'm afraid", then.

"instead of hiding behind sarcasm"

Hiding? I put a "Hurrah" and a rollingeyes emoticon right after it. It's not my problem you fail to see obvious indicators. This just shows how good you are at reading comprehension and finding flaws in arguments at all-- for all you know I could be hiding a diamond in your eye.

"You keep telling us that there's more substance to your bullshit then just...bullshit. "

If you had any substantial argument to give on the subject you wouldn't be wasting your time arguing with me, so quit pretending like you have some secret golden nugget crammed up your nose you're just waiting to sneeze all over when I've made an appropriately powerful argument.

"but 9/11 gave people an actual reason for which to base opinions"

Great, that's not what I was saying at all. I'm glad you're capable of interpreting my arguments. Also, thanks for showing my argument in it's entirety; this muslim hatred isn't even based on anything valid, but the actions of a TERRORIST who you claim has little connection with the muslim governments. If there is no connection, then how could improved diplomatic positions and a cultural influence in the area have absolutely no effect on osama?

"to credit all that anti-Islam sentiment to the tradition of The Crusades is wishfull thinking on your part."

I was merely linking the two together by showing past influences on eachother. You seem to think this has anything to do with our current feelings on eachother. That's why you're stupid. I didn't show it for that, I showed it for the past; the events that lead to 9/11(not even really just that, just giving you an apt explaination). Why there was ill-will between us in the first place, how it wasn't some unfounded attack like people make it out to be. I find you so hilarious, you can't even follow a train of thought. People have somehow managed to go through a timewarp where nothing before ten years ago mattered.

P.S. Haven't there even been more recent affairs between america and certain muslim nations where we were being a little more aggressive? Maybe taking land from/attacking someone or something? Not iraq, but something else. I just can't recall.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 11:53 PM       
"yet you imply Osama has no connection with the muslim nations-- not even in your own mind. "

I said Osama holds little diplomatic weight with Islamic nations -peace with him doesn't equal peace with the Arab supremacist movement.

I didn't even read the rest of that garbage. I got to the point where you quoted my insults towards you as evidence I'm scared of Muslims. You're a debate club flunkie . Come back with facts to back up your opinions...so far you can't even get a basic timeline right.
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  #117  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 12:39 AM       
According to the only muslim on the board, my interpretation of the Koran appears to be superior to yours. I'm more than willing to take that alone as a victory, however, if you'd like to point out how my timeline is flawed I'd be happy to point out how it's not.
I'd seriously like you to do this. Please show me how. I know you'll quote some stupid shit, but still. I want to see.
The fact is, anti-semitism in Europe comes out of the bible. It is a direct result of the bible. Whether you want to argue that it occured as soon as they crucified jesus, or that it occured during the crusades when it really began to get heated up(like when they were all kicked out of spain in the 1400's and when they started burning them at the stake), is entirely irrelevant to my argument. My argument is that america is a christian nation that was built on the Church/ideas of the church from which the previous events transpired. America is also responsible for discrimination against plenty of other races, including kicking native americans off their land and beating women. From what I've seen in other threads you talk about the mistreatment of women alot, as if America is so superior in that respect. They aren't, you're just a hypocrite.
All of this further connects with the fact that conflicts between america and the muslim nations have been going on for a very long time, and we aren't entirely innocent in the matter. What we got we deserved, because we were technically at war. Quit whining that they are criminals, you are just following propaganda.
If you want to kill them because they are another nation who fucked with you and you want their land and the world to be a safer place or whatever, fine; but quit trying to justify it by saying they are EVIL(Which just shows your religious fervor; or the following of) and that their laws are so backwards and they need to die so we keep other people from dying. "WE ARE MORALLY SUPERIOR." And yet, before this century we were practically in the same boat. Plus, there's plenty of problems in america still without you lashing out at them for no reason.
Considering KK's argument was that muslims suck because they hate jews, I consider it all quite apt.


"I said Osama holds little diplomatic weight with Islamic nations -peace with him doesn't equal peace with the Arab supremacist movement. "

Who cares about that? I was more interested in diplomatic relations with the other muslim nations-- which is why I said rebuilding iraq is important in that capacity. What do you think would happen if our diplomatic relations with muslim nations increased? Think about it... especially if there's any palpable connection between their government and their terrorists. If there's not, then quit acting like there is and shut up. If there is, then quit acting like nothing would happen. Hell, even excusing all of those facts; improved diplomatic relations with muslim nations would still have a huge effect... even if it was just to start ill-feelings towards the terrorists. I can't believe I even have to explain that.

"I got to the point where you quoted my insults towards you as evidence I'm scared of Muslims."

You mean when I used your insult to insult you in a really lame way? Pussy. I didn't even think it was a good insult, and you took it seriously.

P.S. Next time I'm acting like an overly liberal asshole don't jump in like I'm being serious; then try your best to follow context of character and realize when I'm acting like an overly conservative asshole to try to tip you off to the fact. Jackass.
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  #118  
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 02:12 AM       
Dude, I didn't bother with all that pscho babble. I already provided you with a timelime and rephrased it a second time, because you're a child. Your only refutation is to say you were sarcastic. So you know, there's more then one Muslim on this board, but the one you're talking about confirmed things I've said too. Meanwhile, by your standard of authority, I am Mr. Middle Eastern, after all. Nanny-nanny rahrah. Is it second period yet?
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 12:32 PM       
"I said that's when it became RAMPANT (essentially leading to CURRENT DAY ANTISEMITISM) not that it JUST THEN BEGUN. Out of the entire world, antisemitism was not prevelant until 1200 ad. Hurrah. :Rolleyes Quit picking bullshit things to argue about."

I'm hiding behind sarcasm nehehehehe. I love how you continued to argue about bullshit, though

You see, the reason why all of this is relevant is because it led to relevant events; like it's influence on america and it's influence on current day Europe. None of that other stuff really matters because it effected america very little. Now if I had been comparing a country other than america, it may have. The fact that you can't see that simple little nugen makes you look incredibly stupid.
Your timeline would've been a little more relevant if it was in accordance with that idea... and don't pretend you didn't know I was comparing america, because I know you did. If you didn't you are more vapid than even I realized.

As far as I know the first jewish death by a christian (by what you say) falls into my timeline. I said "Pope innocent the III" and the "Crusades" which started in/around "1144" which you quoted as being one of the first jewish deaths or whatever. So um.. thanks for reminding me I can't follow timelines.

P.S. I use adjectives for a reason, maybe you should learn what their usage is in the english language.

PPS What i meant with him agreeing with my interpretation is my interpretation of the tennets of the religion, not the little historical fact or political outrages you're throwing around. Anybody can agree with those(WOMEN BEING BEATEN? OUTRAGE!), real knowledge of religion is a little more conceptual than that.
That'd be like if I thought the entire christian religion boiled down to the crusades or something. I accept it as an important part of it's history, however, I don't use it to judge people. Unlike you, dear sir. Judger of judges, prosecutor of least important matters, duck of the name Quaker.
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