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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 03:59 AM        Perspective on "despair" of Arab world
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/08/in...osition=bottom

April 8, 2003

Intellectual Speaks of the Arab World's Despair
By SUSAN SACHS

CAIRO, April 6 — Early in the morning, while most of Cairo is asleep, Ahmed Kamal Aboulmagd watches the war on television and despairs over the path taken by the United States. Even in the gloom of 4 a.m., this is not a normal emotion for Mr. Aboulmagd, a sprightly man of 72 who has lived through more than his share of revolutions, wars and international crises, yet has maintained a marvelously sunny outlook.

"We should never lose hope," he remarked the other day from his 18th-floor law office overlooking the Nile, a room crammed with books and brightened with paintings of sailboats on calm waters. "Frustration is not an option."

But in truth, Mr. Aboulmagd admitted, he is just whistling in the dark. Never have America's Arab friends, he said, felt so estranged from the United States.

"People in Egypt and many parts of the Arab world used to love America, and now they have a sense of being betrayed, misunderstood, taken lightly," he said. "And when it comes to the central problem of the Middle East — the Arab-Israeli conflict — we feel that even a minimum of American even-handedness is missing."

Mr. Aboulmagd is one of Egypt's best-known intellectuals, a senior aide to former President Anwar el Sadat, consultant to the United Nations and ever-curious polymath whose interests range across the fields of Islamic jurisprudence, comparative religions, literature, history and commercial law.

Like many educated Egyptians of his generation, he is a man whose views on democracy and political values were shaped by reading the United States Constitution, the Federalist papers and the writings of Thomas Jefferson and Woodrow Wilson.

For him the United States was a "dream," a paragon of liberal values to be emulated by Arabs and Muslims seeking to have a voice in the modern world.

One of his daughters lived in the United States. Mr. Aboulmagd studied there, earning a master's degree in comparative law at the University of Michigan in 1959. He served as president of the administrative tribunal of the World Bank in Washington. And he has spent more than 20 years of his life working on projects aimed at promoting dialogue between the Western, non-Muslim civilization and the Arab-Muslim world.

Yet these days, in his opinion, something has gone terribly wrong.

"Under the present situation, I cannot think of defending the United States," said Mr. Aboulmagd, a small man with thinning white hair who juggles a constant stream of phone calls and invitations to speak about modernizing the Arab world.

"I would not be listened to," he added. "To most people in this area, the United States is the source of evil on planet earth. And whether we like it or not, it is the Bush administration that is to blame."

When speaking of President Bush and his administration, Mr. Aboulmagd uses words like narrow-minded, pathological, obstinate and simplistic. The war on Iraq, he said bluntly, is the act of a "weak person who wants to show toughness" and, quite frankly, seems "deranged."

Such language from a man of Mr. Aboulmagd's stature is a warning sign of the deep distress that has seized the Arab elite, those who preach moderation in the face of rising Islamic radicalism and embrace liberalism over the tired slogans of Arab nationalism.

Similar opinions can also be heard these days from wealthy Arab businessmen, university professors, senior government officials and Western-leaning political analysts — the people whose support could help advance the Bush administration's professed mission: to bring democracy to the Arab world.

Mr. Aboulmagd has a hand in just about every institution or board that counts in Egypt, including al Azhar, the authoritative institution of Sunni Muslim learning. He is consulted on inter-cultural dialogue by the United Nations, the Arab League and the European Union. He has taught law in universities in Egypt, Sudan and Kuwait.

He is the epitome of the Arab establishment. Sprinkled throughout his conversation are anecdotes about President Sadat and recollections of discussions with luminaries like the United Nations general secretary, Kofi Annan. He receives phone calls from Arab presidents and kings. His office is filled with mementos from trips around the world as a lecturer and consultant. An oversize Koran in a green leather case rests on a coffee table along with a rendition of the scales of justice in brass and alabaster.

He has devoted decades of his life and his writings to the cause of modernizing Islamic life and promoting understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims.

Now those efforts, Mr. Aboulmagd said, have been set back by President Bush's "exaggerated" response to the terror attacks of Sept. 11, a response he believes only encouraged mutual enmity and suspicion by painting Muslims and Arabs as potential enemies to be reformed or destroyed.

"I find what is happening to be a serious setback in the endeavors of noble people who have realized the commonalities among different civilizations and nations," he said.

The problem, he said, is that the war on Iraq is widely seen in the Arab world as an attack on all Arabs, meant to serve the interests of Israel with no compensating outreach to aggrieved Arabs.

While the 1991 Persian Gulf war, under Mr. Bush's father, was waged with the understanding that the United States would engage itself in the search for peace, he said, this war was launched without a parallel American effort to compel Israel to forge a genuine peace with the Palestinians.

"The United States has played a destructive role by giving direct or indirect green lights to the Israeli government to do what it pleases," Mr. Aboulmagd said. "This is ruining Israel's future in the area. And whatever, even if all the Arabs sign up, this is a truce, this is a ceasefire, this is not peace. It is not peace. If you want peace you must have genuine desire for peace."

If the Iraq war comes to be seen as an American war against Islam, he added, President Bush may be partly to blame. "He believes he was chosen by the Almighty to fulfill a Christian mission," Mr. Aboulmagd said. "Or at least he was made to believe that by the people around him."

Still, at the end of three hours of discussion, he returned to an optimistic viewpoint — a position that clearly fits his nature.

"Many people are talking about planet earth being no more a safe place for anyone, but I am optimistic," he said. "I believe dialogue is needed now, so we should not give in to desperation, to loss of hope, to pessimism. Rather we should act actively and continue the path of dialogue and the path of understanding, simply because we cannot afford the other consequence."
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 05:26 PM       
I can't believe this has been ignored. Personally, I find it extremely insightful. I think the Arab world is finally waking up to the inconsistancies which will be found in a govenment based upon instability. Having a President every four years and a largely different congress every six, does not bode well for a uniform concensus in regards to foreign policy. As a result, we are almost fated to perpetually short sighted goals as the only results which will benefit those in office are they which will come about immediately.

There are many (correctable) flaws in this country, and as with the one above, it is largely due to the fact that America was envisioned as an isolationist empire. Not a world super-power. Were there a higher standard of morality and greater degree of education, in the populace as well the Presidency (quick quiz, how many US Presidents have formal education in International Law or Relations?), I believe the inconsistancies in our foreign policies would be significantly reduced.

Of course, I could be wrong, thats just my take on it.,
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 06:35 PM       
Aboulmagd's opinions are EXACTLY those of the Egyptian curators I've been working with for the past four months. Highly educated, cosmoploitan and until W turned his attentions to Iraq, adamantly and vocally pro-American.

As a group they feel mistified, demonized and betrayed. If this is how the Arabs who love America feel, imagine the rest.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 06:40 PM       
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Originally Posted by mburbank
If this is how the Arabs who love America feel, imagine the rest.
I'd rather not. But I get the feeling that over the next decade or so, we're not going to HAVE to imagine the rest. We're going to SEE clearly and precisely just HOW they feel. :/
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 06:54 PM       
I sincerely believe it's not to late to dig out of this mess. If W. looses the next election (and if everyone who wants this works for it, it's far from impossible), the next President repudiates at very least the manner in which W has presented America and makes a sincere good faith effort to rebuild Iraq without an eye toward control or profit and works on an Israeli/palestinian peace accord with seriousness instead of flippancy, contempt and lip service everything could be turned around AND saddam Hussein would be gone in the bargain.

I even hold out the possability that people besides the current Iraq Hawks will somehow hold the attention of our play dough current president and convince him that the State Department should steer the peace now that the Pentagon had the War. The next two years may well prove to be the most critical juncture in American History, and I don't say that lightly.
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Old Apr 8th, 2003, 09:10 PM       
The results of the next election will depend entirely on whether or not W can keep the momentum hes got from the war on terror to keep a blind eye on the economy and everything else.

If he REALLY wants to win the election, the best thing that could happen to him is another war. I'm not saying the US will start one or have another Iraq, it would be much easier to sell if someone did something extremely horrendous and stupid forcing The US to take action somewhere else.

It would be good for Bush in the same way that september 11th was.

This would suck, but if it doesnt happen, then theres a chance that there will be a new president and things can get patched up properly.

Even without some tragedy theres also the chance that the war on terror angle could be stretched all the way into re-election.

Of course there is always the good possibility that the democratic party runs a shitty candidate and loses regardless.

In fact new prediction:

1. the democratic party runs a shitty candidate and loses regardless of war or lack thereof
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Old Apr 9th, 2003, 12:51 AM       
Oh please. Let's put this into context....

Aboulmagd refers to the war as "deranged" actions by "a weak person who wants to show toughness". No mention is made condeming Saddam for victims of torture including mock executions, acid baths, sexual abuse, electric shock, ceiling suspension, eye gouging, piercing of hands with electric drills, non-judicial beheadings, gassing, mass executions. No mention of the 3-4 million Iraqis exiled under Saddam, or another 400,000 evicted from their homes. Where is the acountability on the part of the Arab League who refused to stand up to Saddam?

Aboulmagd is one of the "best known intellectuals" in Egypt, a nation without free speech. As a man with strong views on Democracy, and a constitutional lawyer, I'd love to see him stick to his opinions of Mubarak instead...perhaps start with the excution of homosexuals in your own backyard, and then work your way up to foriegn policy?

Oh, and what of Egypts tolerance towards terrorism and it's role in festering the situation? Mubarak has publicly admitted out loud what a lot of Arab and Muslim leaders believe - that Islamic terror, including suicide bombing, is a justified means of venting their sense of injustice towards the non-Muslim world. Seems that Aboulmagd just echos these sentiments discreetly, and so do a lot of others.

His perception that Bush is acting in part of a Christian crusade is especially enlightening when one considers that Egypt was once mainly Christian. These Christians (mainly Coptic Chrisitans) now make up a number as small as 6% of the population, and still face the threat of persecution.

His comments on 9/11 are also especially loaded in light that Bin Laden's right hand man assasinated Sadat, who Aboulmagd worked under. Sadat's murder was an inside job, so showing sympathies or weakness to Al Qaeda idealogy is a bit odd. It should also be noted that Sadat wasn't some Martin Luther King figure of the Middle East at all. Sadat was ruthless. The reason his attitude towards the west is now so celebrated was because he changed his tune over time, and agreed to sit down and negotiate. He was strong willed and yet he was able to comprimise and recognize the error of his ways. Not with "the west" but with Israel. To use the Sadat legacy to show credibility for his opinions is also a bit odd. It's like bragging about your peaceful attitude about race relations in America because you were associated with Malcolm X. It doesn't guarantee a mindset of peace, love and harmony at all. Sadat waged several wars against Israel partially based on race issues. Most Sadat associates were not doves at all.

Egyptian leaders have always taken a hypocritical stance against Israel, condemning them publicly while vacationing there the next week. Egypt recieves the second highest amount of aid money from the US, second to Israel, and they do the least of any country for it.

If Israel has a "green light" to do what it pleases, then why is it that every incursion into conquered territory comes with a public condemnation of their defensive actions. When Israel went into Jenin they were scolded...yet it's that very mission that the US has based portions of their current maneuvers on. The suggestion that the United States has entered this war to appease Zionist interests is an unfortunately bigoted frame of mind. Antisemetism is commonplace around Egypt... doesn't sound like this "intellectual" is doing much to squealch that with statements like these.

The article suggest that the Arab "elite" known for "preaching moderation" and "embracing liberalism" are giving up hope... that Bush is alienating the people who will support acceptance most... well I'd suggest that the "elite" have long turned the other cheek, and the "Islamic radicalism" that's become prevelant didn't happen just under their noses without them turning a blind eye...now they're looking to find a scapegoat...to say "oh if Bush wasn't so unreasonable, oh if America didn't go to war, but now it's a lost cause, even I can't rationalize these actions". Suuuure. How is this attitude any different then that of many Arab and Muslim rulers? Let's take Mubarak for instance... he continously calls for help fighting terrorism, warning the world of it's dangers, and then supports and harbors these same organizations in the next breath out of fear for his own safety. It's hypocrtical...but sure, it's that fuckhead Bush's fault.
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Old Apr 9th, 2003, 08:19 AM       
So ABC, any opionions from Arab commentators who actually LIVE in these countries who you think hold a worthy opinion...?
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Old Apr 9th, 2003, 12:32 PM       
I'm sure those people dancing in the streets of Iraq today might do. I doubt they're under the impression that oppressive regimes = stabalized region.
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Old Apr 9th, 2003, 01:35 PM       
Dancing in the streets is nice, but they've been conditioned for a generation to dance for the victor. If we doubted their support for Saddam why do we place credence in their curent apparent support of us?

An Abcdxx, with all due respect, the Egyptian intellectuals I've been with during the exhibit are in America, not Egypt. I've had these conversations one on one, and have heard quite a bit of negative feedback aboit their own government, some of it very frightening. It didn't alter their feelings about Bush or our current policy, it made it tht much more sad, because they ALL said that America represented hope to them.

In addition, if you are %100 percent right in what you've written, what is the argument for not conquering the middle east and splitting the spoils between the US and Israel?

Do you hold out hope for averting the end of the world? And if so, what course away from it do you see?
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Old Apr 9th, 2003, 02:37 PM       
My answer was just being flip honestly, but I doubt the Kurds are celebrating because they've been conditioned or staged. All I can say is that this particular Egyptian intellectual doesn't live under Saddam, and so an opinion is an opinion, and it's about as worthy as you want it to be. Didn't some of my comments helpt to put it into context though?

Egypt is filled with tons of dissent and you'll hear lots of it from those working in the United States...it's no accident that Egypts "free press" Al Hayat is published from outside of Egypt though. Even the pro-Israel contingent turns a blind eye towards Egypts problems. Saddam was a problem that should have been taking care of by "their own". You can intellectualize the blame game, or the illusion of integrity within an ethnically cleansed society all you want .... but it's still very foolish.

While I'm not sure the Arab League nations should all adopt democracy at once, I do think they are capable of reforming with new rulership that represents the population of the region, and believes in a coexistance. As for your fears of doom and gloom... contrary to American fears, and world opinion....all this flexing of power is the one thing that's going to keep us alive.... restraint would show a sense of maturity and humanity, but it would also show weakness.... and you don't want an Islamic world that holds a unique view of death to see weakness.
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Old Apr 9th, 2003, 06:22 PM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
I'm sure those people dancing in the streets of Iraq today might do.
I'll bet the 11 Afghan civilians killed today were dancing a year ago, as well. But I digress....

Doesn't it make sense that a scholar in Egypt wouldn't denounce an Egyptian regime that you yourself said is in all actuality oppressive and intolerant...? Isn't there a degree of relativity, in other words, a comparison between what an Eqyptian "democrat" can freely say, and what an American one can...?

This doesn't even seem to be the point. You can trash him and disagree with him all you like, that's not the point of the article, or the thread. I feel its purpose was show certain sentiments by the Arab community. This is a man who is a raging liberal compared to Saddam Hussein and others, yet even he is critical. That doesn't necessariliy mean that he's right, or that he's righteous, like you have tried to turn the claim into. I think it says that there is a good possibility that regardless of whatever fruitful, humanitarian sucess stories come out of the Iraqi invasion, a lot of Arab sentiment may become negative and hostile.

Now, you can say "so what?", they don't matter, most Arabs like America, want freedom, etc., I'm not even doubting that. All I'm saying is it only took a small network of Arabs to commit the crime of 9/11, and invading Iraq and establishing a permanent presence there might create hostility that surpasses even the kind at the root of 9/11.
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Old Apr 10th, 2003, 09:30 PM       
That's like saying the White militiea wouldn't be planning racially motivated attacks if it weren't for the provocation of those darn minorities.
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Old Apr 11th, 2003, 12:04 AM       
If minorities went to their towns, bombed them, and killed their leaders, then sure, your analogy works. Otherwise, it really doesn't.
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Old Apr 11th, 2003, 11:25 AM       
Wanna quote some more constitutional lawyers from oppressive nations to support that comeback?

p.s. what came first? bombs or racially motivated terrorism?
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Old Apr 11th, 2003, 12:14 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Wanna quote some more constitutional lawyers from oppressive nations to support that comeback?
Are these lawyers from oppressive nations experts on the American white militia system and racism in America??? If not, your point is still pretty moot.

Quote:
p.s. what came first? bombs or racially motivated terrorism?
Good Lord, Max is right, you have a massive chip on your shoulder. Obviously the latter. But your example was of a white militia group, most prevolent in America, and minorities in America. That was your analogy. It doesn't work with the Middle East.
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Old Apr 11th, 2003, 04:08 PM       
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Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
It doesn't work with the Middle East.
...and neither does black and white, cause and effect logic. Sorry kiddo.

boo hoo. the mockery boys don't like me. waaah. they never calle this guy an expert on terrorism or the middle east at all.
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Old Apr 11th, 2003, 04:23 PM       
I like you [/list]
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Apr 11th, 2003, 05:20 PM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
...and neither does black and white, cause and effect logic. Sorry kiddo.
HAHA, right, now you're just back peddling, because your analogy doesn't work.

Quote:
boo hoo. the mockery boys don't like me. waaah.
Doesn't matter if we like you, fact is most of us realize you're not an idiot, but it's hard holding a conversation with a condescending prick who doesn't like directly answering questions.

Quote:
they never calle this guy an expert on terrorism or the middle east at all.
You, or the guy in the article? Who said he had to be one?

You on the other hand, didn't you go on a diatribe about how "qualified" you are on the subject matter???
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Old Apr 11th, 2003, 07:03 PM       
That wasn't a "diatribe", I was just answering a question directly. You're pretty sensitive if you think I was being abusive and violent by explaining my background.

Of course I DO have a chip on my shoulder... and i DO make it real hard for you all to agree with me.
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