osama bin laden is dead

[WhiteRat]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Pentegarn: are you saying that if Osama had gotten a trial you are worried that he would have gotten off? Haha, I don't think so, but if he did and your trial is fair then, well, that's fair.

I don't think so though.


White Rat: You're right, few people in America give a fuck about Osama getting a trial, let alone a fair one. That doesn't make it right. It makes the situation a worrying one; your government can execute people on the spot and nobody cares. The most likely situation is that this isn't a one of special occasion, it's the precedent for the same thing happening again and again in the future.

Accused "terrorists" are already incarcerated indefinitely and subject to torture without their guilt being proven, and while many people around the world are outraged, it's still going on because not enough people in the US care about the rights of people that their government tells them are evil.

I do believe Osama was a terrorist, and certainly a criminal, but executing him on the spot prevents the other side of the 9/11 story (and other stuff) from being known, and it allows your government to pick and choose who it dishes out rights too.

I thought Americans were meant to be wary of 'big government'? Why do so many people stand idly by while the government gives itself more and more ways to control them?

I guess what i'm trying to make clear is that Osama was a military target. 9/11 and his 1997 declaration of war aside, he was also responsible for the bombing of the USS Cole that killed 6 sailors in 2000. Sure he was without a nation's flag but he "commanded" an army of pseudo-solders that has been fighting US and global forces for years. This is why I don't see a problem with how he was killed, and judging by popular American opinion, they feel it's justified.

Bin Laden was public enemy number 1. Like I said before, I don't think it's right to marginalize his actions and effect on the US and to a lesser extent, the world. Maybe since you aren't American you aren't effected by his actions and simply can't understand the effect he's had on this country. Simply put, this was a "special case". Bin Laden wasn't some white Australian guy or some extremists that were rounded up in Afghanistan or Yemen or some other middle east hotspot. It was OBL. I really shouldn't have to explain more, like I said, it's fucking BIN LADEN.

Yeah a lot of people want Gitmo to go. What does that have to do with Bin Laden being killed?

Please explain what you mean by "other stuff" regarding the "other side" of 9/11. If this is a truther thing you need not reply.

[kahljorn]

if its an act of war it goes back to what zhukov said i think about how can you declare war on an individual :O plus how can you go to war inside another persons country. Plus how is going to war sending an assassin team? Etc.

[WhiteRat]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

if its an act of war it goes back to what zhukov said i think about how can you declare war on an individual :O plus how can you go to war inside another persons country. Plus how is going to war sending an assassin team? Etc.

I'm not going to defend every single action that the US government has done. I'm not going to get drawn into a massive debate about the legality of invading Iraq (i'm assuming that's what you mean?) or the War on Terror in general. That's a whole different beast that I just don't care to get into. I've said what I've wanted about Bin Laden's death and that's the bottom line because Stunning Steve Austin said so!

[kahljorn]

No, I wasn't talking about Iraq. I'm talking about how can we "go to war" inside of pakistan against someone that isn't pakistan. But maybe they gave us permission I dunno.

but ok yea that's kind of how i feel about it.

[Pentegarn]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Pentegarn: are you saying that if Osama had gotten a trial you are worried that he would have gotten off? Haha, I don't think so, but if he did and your trial is fair then, well, that's fair.

I don't think so though.

People said the same thing about OJ Simpson. The evidence was all there. DNA matches, fingerprints, several witness giving all sorts of accounts pointing to motive. It should have been an open and shut case. But because the defense decided to make the case about the police who arrested him, the parameters of justice were warped and distorted. With the right defender, and people who dislike America pushing their agenda in the arena of public opinion, he may well have gotten off on a technicality. And if it were a world trial, ran by the joke we all call the UN, well I shudder to think how badly that would have gone. Simply put my point here is that a trial does not always bring justice, despite your protests to the contrary.

You talk of wanting his side of 9/11, but he has given it, multiple times on multiple propaganda tapes. He hates America enough to kill thousands of people he has never met and is too cowardly to face. You have already heard this and I assume you are smart enough to know if he were on trial you would hear it again. What you really seem to want is to give him another chance to spread anti-America propaganda. Why is this?

You say if he got a fair trial and got off it would be fair, but how can this be? Even you cannot deny he was responsible for the death of thousands. If he walked for that on some sort of technicality in a 'fair trial' would you really feel justice were served? Would you go to the terrorist internet forums and tell them that their use of the word justice is wrong?

[WhiteRat]

This lady looks awfully familiar but I can't for the life of me remember where i've seen her!

[Colonel Flagg]

[Tadao]

[Pentegarn]

Colonel that was awesome, this is why you earned your rank, sir!

[Colonel Flagg]

I'm only funny about once every 6 months, so I'd better do it right, eh?

[Pentegarn]

Least you got that, better than funny once by accident and not for why you intended

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by WhiteRat

I guess what i'm trying to make clear is that Osama was a military target. 9/11 and his 1997 declaration of war aside, he was also responsible for the bombing of the USS Cole that killed 6 sailors in 2000. Sure he was without a nation's flag but he "commanded" an army of pseudo-solders that has been fighting US and global forces for years. This is why I don't see a problem with how he was killed, and judging by popular American opinion, they feel it's justified.

I see a problem with this because I don't think he was a military target (but that's not my point) and it's scary to see who can become a military target. Suspected terrorists are a military target, if you can stretch the law for them, then you can stretch the law for whomever you want.

Popular opinion. OK, I get that, and I'm not out in the streets marching for Osama's rights, and I understand that not many people in the US (or in other western countries) would, I suppose that I'm worried that a nation of people can say "fuck ethics, but just this once, ok kids?".

Bin Laden was public enemy number 1. Like I said before, I don't think it's right to marginalize his actions and effect on the US and to a lesser extent, the world. Maybe since you aren't American you aren't effected by his actions and simply can't understand the effect he's had on this country. Simply put, this was a "special case". Bin Laden wasn't some white Australian guy or some extremists that were rounded up in Afghanistan or Yemen or some other middle east hotspot. It was OBL. I really shouldn't have to explain more, like I said, it's fucking BIN LADEN.

No, I do 'get' that it was Osama Bin Laden, most wanted no1 and all that, and I hope you don't think that I am blase about 3000 odd people dying like some people; I'm not. I'm not a big fan of "special case" scenarios, because they turn into the norm for whomever is the topical enemy of the month for governments the world over.

Yeah a lot of people want Gitmo to go. What does that have to do with Bin Laden being killed?

It's an example of rights being disregarded for special circumstances. Special circumstances that will happen time and time again, for more and more people.

Please explain what you mean by "other stuff" regarding the "other side" of 9/11. If this is a truther thing you need not reply.

Truther thing? I was saying that if you captured him then you could learn just HOW he planned it. Everyone knows OSAMA DID IT, but I certainly don't know how he planned it. If someone already knows then I guess I missed that info.



Pentegarn: We aren't talking about OJ Simpson, and do you not understand the faulty logic in saying: 'person X murders someone, person x is given a fair trial, person x is found not guilty'....? Hint: It's not a fair trial. If a fair trial produces an outcome (like Osama getting off - yeah right) then that is fair. That's the essence of a fair trial, it produces a fair outcome. Why are we talking about Osama being found innocent, why are you making up these ridiculous hypothetical situations?

Another thing, I doubt Osama would be given a good chance to sway people to his branch of fundamentalist Islam by US military controlled TV. Even if he did spout a truly mesmerizing monologue, something tells me they would edit that bit out. You know, maybe. Anyway, what difference does it make if propaganda tape after propaganda tape is shown on FOX news? Hasn't stopped them before, and it hasn't made that much of a dent in the American spirit, has it? Are you worried about something?

Leave the discussion of your views up to more intelligent people, for your own good.

[Pentegarn]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Pentegarn: We aren't talking about OJ Simpson, and do you not understand the faulty logic in saying: 'person X murders someone, person x is given a fair trial, person x is found not guilty'....? Hint: It's not a fair trial. If a fair trial produces an outcome (like Osama getting off - yeah right) then that is fair. That's the essence of a fair trial, it produces a fair outcome. Why are we talking about Osama being found innocent, why are you making up these ridiculous hypothetical situations?

Because these things can and do happen, and OJ Simpson getting off despite overwhelming evidence of his guilt on a technicality is not fair or just. It was an example of these things happening, you are just pissed that it helps prove that there is merit to what I (and countless others) are saying

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Another thing, I doubt Osama would be given a good chance to sway people to his branch of fundamentalist Islam by US military controlled TV. Even if he did spout a truly mesmerizing monologue, something tells me they would edit that bit out. You know, maybe. Anyway, what difference does it make if propaganda tape after propaganda tape is shown on FOX news? Hasn't stopped them before, and it hasn't made that much of a dent in the American spirit, has it? Are you worried about something?

What the hell? US Military controlled TV? What the hell channel is this because I have several hundred channels in my cable package, and I have yet to see one of them controlled by the military. Keep that garbage in The Running Man where it belongs. Besides it isn't the US that he would sway, it is anti american sympathizers like you. People who think they have all the answers, but are barely into decade 3 of their life and have yet to acquire the wisdom that it takes to see how the world really interacts. In other words, people easily swayed by propaganda. You honestly think the US has the only media in the world? Because that is what you are implying here

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Leave the discussion of your views up to more intelligent people, for your own good.

Good advice, maybe you should consider taking it yourself

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Pentegarn

Because these things can and do happen, and OJ Simpson getting off despite overwhelming evidence of his guilt on a technicality is not fair or just. It was an example of these things happening, you are just pissed that it helps prove that there is merit to what I (and countless others) are saying

Right, so OJ didn't get a fair trial. Also, are you serious when you say that you are worried that Osama would have been found not guilty? Bahahahaha.

What the hell? US Military controlled TV? What the hell channel is this because I have several hundred channels in my cable package, and I have yet to see one of them controlled by the military. Keep that garbage in The Running Man where it belongs. Besides it isn't the US that he would sway, it is anti american sympathizers like you. People who think they have all the answers, but are barely into decade 3 of their life and have yet to acquire the wisdom that it takes to see how the world really interacts. In other words, people easily swayed by propaganda. You honestly think the US has the only media in the world? Because that is what you are implying here

It would have been a US military court, just like the kangaroo courts that some suspected terrorists held in Guantanamo have seen. Therefore the US military would have control over any footage shot there. Not too hard to understand. At a stretch of justice it could have been held in an international human rights tribunal in the Hague; again, all footage shot there heavily controlled by the ICC/UN.

No, I am not implying that the US military owns all the media in the world. WTF? Where did you get that from? You like making things up that make little sense, don't you? And I am likely to be easily swayed by Osama's anti American propoganda?

You have problems, Pentegarn. This is why I don't like talking to you.

[kahljorn]

WE SHOULD EXECUTE ALL CRIMINALS ON SITE IN THE OFF CHANCE THAT THE OJ CATASTROPHE WILL HAPPEN ALL OVER AGAIN AND NO CRIMINALS WILL BE PUNISHED EVER

ORANGE JUICE PROVIDES VITAMIN C WE CANT DO WITHOUT IT

[Pentegarn]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Right, so OJ didn't get a fair trial. Also, are you serious when you say that you are worried that Osama would have been found not guilty? Bahahahaha.


It would have been a US military court, just like the kangaroo courts that some suspected terrorists held in Guantanamo have seen. Therefore the US military would have control over any footage shot there. Not too hard to understand. At a stretch of justice it could have been held in an international human rights tribunal in the Hague; again, all footage shot there heavily controlled by the ICC/UN.

No, I am not implying that the US military owns all the media in the world. WTF? Where did you get that from? You like making things up that make little sense, don't you? And I am likely to be easily swayed by Osama's anti American propoganda?

You have problems, Pentegarn. This is why I don't like talking to you.

I have problems? I think I will consider the source and dismiss that comment. You are the one fighting for the 'rights' of a monster. You pretend to be all progressive and caring but you don't give a damn about the rights of the victims or their families. Despite what you say to the contrary your actions in this thread show what you really are. You are the most fundamentally flawed thinker (and I use the term loosely) and hate filled person I have ever seen. Anyone who cries over the rights of an admitted murderer but says jack shit about the rights of his victims has a broken mind. Anyone who thinks communism can really work despite decades of historical evidence to the contrary is someone who likely is going to be wrong about pretty much everything else they ever say or think. So when you say I have problems I will take it as I am on the right path. A path where I actually care about other humans as opposed to the rights of a monster.

But I do take back that you would be swayed by anti american propaganda, (or 'propoganda' as you just called it, which you may be thinking is some African country bordering Uganda, I am not sure with you honestly) because you are already the most anti american person I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. Must be the communist beliefs. We won the cold war son, get over it.

But let's look at it one other way, I pointed out Winston Churchill thinks like me in this. So if I have problems then so does he because I took the exact same stance on Bin Laden as he did on Hitler.

[Zhukov]

So what if I hate America? I think it is the biggest cesspit of debauchery and dishonesty. I have never met an American I didn't hate.

To be perfectly honest, I think that the 9/11 attacks were a good thing, and it was a big wake up call to fat American ignoramuses; the world hates you.

3000 people dead in a terrorist attack? They brought it on themselves.

We would all be better off if your money and food was taken forcibly from you and given to China, who would distribute it under perfect communist lines. If Stalin was still around then we would beat you in a war because we are stronger than you and our planes and tanks are better.

Don't talk to me Pentegarn, you utter, utter fool. You and Churchill can go suck OJ's arsehole.

[Tadao]

[kahljorn]

Damn Zhukov i didn't know you hated me and everyone else on this message board

[Colonel Flagg]

I still hope you win your war with Australia.

[The Leader]

I worry about Pentegarn sometimes.

[Pentegarn]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

So what if I hate America? I think it is the biggest cesspit of debauchery and dishonesty. I have never met an American I didn't hate.

To be perfectly honest, I think that the 9/11 attacks were a good thing, and it was a big wake up call to fat American ignoramuses; the world hates you.

3000 people dead in a terrorist attack? They brought it on themselves.

We would all be better off if your money and food was taken forcibly from you and given to China, who would distribute it under perfect communist lines. If Stalin was still around then we would beat you in a war because we are stronger than you and our planes and tanks are better.

Don't talk to me Pentegarn, you utter, utter fool. You and Churchill can go suck OJ's arsehole.

Your sarcasm lacks both subtlety and wit

This is why you are a child mentally, and you will always be so. I have no respect for you or anything you believe in or hold dear.

[Dimnos]

What is more off putting Z, America or the fact Australia is basically little America?

[King Hadas]

Zhukov, do you really have time to be arguing with Pentegarn? I believe you promised me something that so far you have failed to deliver. In a perfect communist world you'd be exiled with the kulaks and the hoarders for not pulling your weight, but in this flawed capitalist world... I guess one can only hope for the best. Just don't forget, Mao Zedong thought lights the way ahead!

[Zhukov]

Hadas, you are completely correct. Please check your PMs.

Originally Posted by Pentegarn

Your sarcasm lacks both subtlety and wit

This is why you are a child mentally, and you will always be so. I have no respect for you or anything you believe in or hold dear.

Yes, I was certainly trying to be subtle there, and you have no idea what I believe in or hold dear, so that hardly cuts deep


Dimnos, I write strongly worded letters every week to my local newspaper lamenting that fact.