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theapportioner theapportioner is offline
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 03:19 AM        Draft
Do any of you guys support the concept of a military draft?

I do, on the following grounds:

1. A volunteer-only army is a form of institutionalized discrimination on the basis of income (in the United States). That's not to say that the benefits aren't helpful to those who need it - I'm sure they're worth it, if you stay alive and don't get maimed.

2. Having a draft would make the threshold for going to war considerably higher. No way we'd be involved in our current adventures in Iraq if we had one. The rich will always get out of it, but it's the middle class that's going to have to go, and many of them won't like it.

3. If we do have a draft (in which case, in our current political climate, the war would probably have be strongly justified), it's our fucking duty to serve.
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Helm Helm is offline
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 06:18 AM       
I see what you're saying. I'd rather the US didn't go to war on other grounds than people being afraid of a mandatory draft, but hey, if that works.
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 06:29 AM       
I support a mandatory draft, but in such a form as some European systems that the vast majority of recruits are actually assigned to domestic problems, civil engineering and such. There would have to be a lottery involved for who gets assigned to domestic or foreign affairs, as it'd be sad to see the rich building bridges while the poor get shot. I personally believe that citizenship is something that should be earned, despite my general opposition to war.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 01:45 PM       
How does that work, exactly? It makes no sense to draft everybody to help with the war then tell them to sort mail or build a bridge.
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 01:57 PM       
In some countries, you go serve a determined length of time (1, 2 years, whatever) once you hit 18. Depending on your skill and their needs, you get assigned somewhere.

But, its not nessicerily military front line kind of stuff. A lot of it would be domestic security, disaster relief etc etc National Guard type of stuff.
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 02:18 PM       
greece is one of these countries. When you hit 18, depending on whether or not you go to school after ( if you do, you're drafted after) you have one year mandatory service. What your 'skills' are is irreleveant, you're randomly assigned to ground, air or naval forces, and you spend 3 months in training in weapons blah blah and the rest sitting on your ass in some military base somewhere, doing to odd civil service or paperwork for the goverment.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 02:32 PM       
But, common sense would have it that if there's an actual war alot of the people doing "Civil work" would be siphoned off to do "Front line" work. Just like how the reserves are sent to war once there's a war. I don't know, just in light of the fact that we need soldiers for war, it would make no sense to tell people that a draft would draft them for civil duty when chances are they will be sent to the frontline.
I'm reading slaughter house five by kurt vonnegeht(i know i spelled that one wrong) right now. THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 03:08 PM       
It also makes a lot more sense to go to war with people who want to fight, rather than those who are forced to.
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 03:56 PM       
All valid objections, certainly. No doubt Rumsfeld et al. would rather have a bunch of willing, "professional" soldiers.

But do you think that an all-volunteer army makes, for most people, an abstraction out of war? Iraq becomes this "other" thing, distant from our lives, when it should be everybody's concern.

I'm just wondering what impact the elimination of the draft has had on civic responsibility in the States.
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 03:58 PM       
Ah, but the ones who are forced to fight are also the ones who want to get out of it alive the most.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jul 4th, 2005, 07:47 PM       
Am I the only one who thinks that app's idea of a volunteer army being inherently discriminatory hilarious?
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 01:01 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapportioner
But do you think that an all-volunteer army makes, for most people, an abstraction out of war? Iraq becomes this "other" thing, distant from our lives, when it should be everybody's concern.
Pardon me for being crass, but you don't necessarily want the people to be overly involved. We have a civilian military, led by civilians, people to serve and protect the constitution and those civilians. Presidents, much like soldiers, often have to do unpleasnat and difficult things, such as sending someone's child to foreign soil to die. Regardless of the cause, that's a pretty tough thing to do, and it's perhaps a burden/responsibility that shouldn't be left to the masses.

I also think we should give the public the benefit of the doubt in terms of their actual awareness about this war. Poll numbers have been pretty down on it lately, primarily b/c it's beginning to look like an endless situation with no clear exit strategy or resolution. People tend to love going to war for noble causes, but they're not too fond of nation building and all that unpleasant after stuff. Goes again back to my point about the impulses of the public. But I think the general public has a pretty good finger on Iraq.

Quote:
I'm just wondering what impact the elimination of the draft has had on civic responsibility in the States.
Well, I think that depends on what you consider "civic responsibility" to be. Despite low enlistment rates, Americans are considered to be pretty big on volunteerism (particularly the younger generations). Groups like AmeriCorps, PeaceCorps, and Teach for America ae still pretty strong. The non-profit industry is almost suffocating from too much involvement and not enough cash.

If you're getting at some kind of compulsory service, not necessarily military in nature, well I'd be down with that.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 01:02 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Am I the only one who thinks that app's idea of a volunteer army being inherently discriminatory hilarious?
Yes.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 01:34 AM       
You people lack a sense of humor.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 02:30 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
I also think we should give the public the benefit of the doubt in terms of their actual awareness about this war. Poll numbers have been pretty down on it lately, primarily b/c it's beginning to look like an endless situation with no clear exit strategy or resolution. People tend to love going to war for noble causes, but they're not too fond of nation building and all that unpleasant after stuff. Goes again back to my point about the impulses of the public. But I think the general public has a pretty good finger on Iraq.
I get the impression that most people think "yeah, this war kinda sucks" but are more concerned about the next Hollywood blockbuster or the sale on lawnmowers at Wal-Mart. Or other "serious" matters like white person kidnappings. Polls can be misleading in that they don't usually reflect how much people care about, or are engaged in a certain topic. It's also a media thing, so I don't mean to oversimplify the issue.

Quote:
If you're getting at some kind of compulsory service, not necessarily military in nature, well I'd be down with that.
Sounds like a good idea, although I'm not sure how one'd go about implementing it on a mass scale. Knowing our government, we'd probably end up "volunteering" for companies like Monsanto or Merck.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 04:57 AM       
Anyone else find OAO's naïvité forged by self-imposed Libertarian indoctrination just, well, sad?
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 05:07 AM       
Very well said. Yes.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 09:52 AM       
I favor a draft, but only if it's for both sexes, and only to see the transparent machinations the Bush twins engage in to get out of it.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 10:31 AM       
Max, I bet somebody could pitch that as a reality show.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 12:25 PM       
What's discriminatory about the military is not the fact that it is volunteer-based, but rather that it markets itself toward lower-income individuals.

Now, I'm not saying that the military isn't corrupt and doesn't need change. What I am saying is that the fact that it's based on voluntary soldiers is not, in and of itself, the problem.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 02:04 PM       
If there were some assurance that they'd take you and transport you far, far away from an internet connection, I'd be for it.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 02:48 PM       
Wouldn't a draft be for both sexes anyway?
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 03:12 PM       
No, only men register when they turn 18.

And, Max, as much as OAO can be a pretentious jackass, he raises a valid question. Especially when you factor in that in the era of the totally volunteer military we have, minorities are proportionatly equal throught the branches, including the officer corps and administrative duties.

I know I don't have to tell you about the accusations going on during the Viet Nam Conflict in regards to black soldiers.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 04:45 PM       
OAO will need to raise about a billion valid points and no blowhard self adressed psuedo intellectual valentines before anything he says becomes slightly less tainted then month old roadkill monkey.

Has anyone looked at how volunteer service plays out against CLASS as opposed to race? Because I think a really shitty job market and really expensive higher education costs drive poor people into the service. I'm not referencing a study here, I'm putting out a hypothesis.

Choice or not, there's ethics here. Suppose we instituted some new protocol where you could get college tuition and a steady job just for submitting to the types of medical experiments currently allowed only on animals. The benefits to society are unquestionable, it'd be purely by choice, but I think ethically it would be kind of nauseating. That's how I feel about a 'volunteer' army during wartime, or most expecially during 'war' time.
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Old Jul 5th, 2005, 04:45 PM        Just curious
Just wondering how many of you have actually served in the military. I know there are a few.

I think the discrimination thing is a load of donkey shit. But what do I know. I am 100% certain that some branches of the service absolutely target certain demographics, but to make a statement so broad to imply that there is some form of discrimination going on is absurd.

When I joined the military I made less in my first two years then I did before I joined. I'm not unique. Additionally, while officers typically make up roughly 1/4 of each branch, all are college educated. In my branch, for example, of those college graduates, only roughly half received a tuition scholarship.

Further, my own personal experience which has involved relatively extensive interaction with all four branches has led me to believe that for the most part the kind of folks you find tend to be middle class types.

I believe there are far fewer military members who joined to avoid dire poverty than some of you seem to imply.
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