Do you believe in a "Hell"?

[Immortal Goat]

Before I start, let me get this out of the way...

I AM NOT MAKING FUN OF RELIGION IN THIS THREAD!!! I am simply stating my opinions, which were formulated by the facts as they have been presented to me.

I personally do not believe in a hell. The concept of hell was brought into Christianity during the middle ages to keep the poor people poor by forcing them to buy "indulgences". For those of you who do not know what these were, they were "Heaven tickets". You paid a specific amount of money (or crops, as the case may be) in exchange for a guarenteed spot in Heaven. (at least until they needed more money and/or crops.)

Notice how the Jewish society does NOT believe in hell. This is because they were not under the same government as the Christians during the Dark Ages. Hell was invented as a means of control. The reason it is ever mentioned in the Bible is because the Bible was written in the Middle Ages.

Now, of course, these are all my opinions. If there are people on this site that disagree with me, I welcome any to try and convince me otherwise. Who knows, I may agree with you.

[kahljorn]

Some christian guys once dropped a pamplet at my work that said hell does not exist, I forget all the quotes and shit on it, though.

[Helm]

The bible was a constant work in progress for 300 years or so but to say it was written in the middle ages is taking it too far.

Hell can suck my nuts for all I care.

[O71394658]

1. You don't understand the system of indulgences.

2. The Bible was not written during the Middle Ages. Don't know where the hell you came up with that one.

[Immortal Goat]

Maybe not "written", but it was definitely "revised" during that time period. And yes, I do know about indulgences, as I just finished reading about them in school.

[O71394658]

No. They were copied, not revised. Comparisons have been made between post war/Middle Age bibles and pre-Middle Age bibles. Of course minor mistakes exist (like different words placed in), but all of the central ideas and frameworks are exactly the same.

No. I don't think you get the idea of indulgences. I suggest you look at another source.

[Immortal Goat]

Ok, then, numbers guy, tell me. What was the core idea behind indulgences? For that matter, what about Tithes, or even the fucking COLLECTION PLATE?!?! You think I am ignorant of the Christian faith? I have been going to a Catholic school all my life! I used to buy it, now I don't. and it is because of what I have learned. I said I would welcome it if people tried to change my mind, but you gotta give me a little more proof than "I said so".

[Emu]

I don't believe in hell because I don't think it would make a god damn bit of sense.

If God is Omniscient(He knows EVERYTHING, before it happens, after it happens, and while it's happening, EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING)

and

God is Infallable(God CAN NOT BE PROVEN WRONG. EVER. BY ANYTHING. EVER. NEVER EVER EVER. ALWAYS RIGHT.)

and

God is Omnipotent(He can do ANY FUCKING THING HE WANTS. EVER. UNRESTRICTED BY TIME OR ANYTHING ELSE.)

and

We have free will(We as human beings are allowed to make choices concerning daily life and everything; we can choose whether or not to buy a sucker, and whether or not to engage in homosexual intercourse)

then

How does God justify sending people to Hell? Let's consider this logically:

Let's say I steal fifty dollars from the local grocery store and keep it. This is a sin, as noted in the Ten Commandments. Let's say I do it again, enough times that I most definately have enough black on my soul to rival the tar on a chronic chain smoker's lungs.

I chose to steal that money.

However. If God is Omniscient, meaning he knows EVERYTHING before it happens, then, well, he KNEW that I was going to steal that money. "But, Emu," you say, "YOU made that choice, not God." Well, I did. But, God already KNEW I was going to make that choice millennia in advance. He KNEW. And God is INFALLABLE. He can't be proven wrong. So no matter what, if God KNOWS it to be true, IT MUST BE TRUE. Right? Otherwise, God would be wrong, and God would crumble. So do I really have a choice in the matter? How can I change my actions if God KNOWS THAT IT WILL HAPPEN 100% completely absolutely true?

Well, simply, I can't. And The Ultimate Love, the Care Beyond Caring, God, now has to send me to an eternity of torment based on something I had no control over it because Infallable God KNEW it had to happen.

Here's another question: If God is restricted by nothing, omnipotent, and he REALLY cares about me, why doesn't he use his sky pixie magic powers to stop me from going to Hell? He loves me, right? And he has powers, right? Well, then, couldn't he reach into the sands of time and move a grain or two to keep me from committing these acts and becoming A Good Christian(tm)? Of course he could! Unless he's restricted by his own Omniscience(Knowlege of All) and his own Infallability, in which case he is not Omnipotent because he's restricted by something, which is, ironically, himself.

Funny how massive terms create massive contradictions, isn't it?

[O71394658]

Originally Posted by Immortal Goat

Ok, then, numbers guy, tell me. What was the core idea behind indulgences? For that matter, what about Tithes, or even the fucking COLLECTION PLATE?!?! You think I am ignorant of the Christian faith? I have been going to a Catholic school all my life! I used to buy it, now I don't. and it is because of what I have learned. I said I would welcome it if people tried to change my mind, but you gotta give me a little more proof than "I said so".

Ever heard of Purgatory? Indulgences weren't used to gain access to heaven. They were only used to shorten one's time span in Purgatory. The concept that money would get you into Heaven is completely blasphemous, and contrary to the doctrine of Christian faith.

Tithes were used as revenue sources. Usually around 10% of one's income was given to the Church. The Churches in that time were political and economic centers. Much more activity than needed today. Many times, the Catholic Church has been engaged in wars (not the Crusades). Needless to say, running the Church in those days required a lot of money. Tithes were the main revenue source of the Church, just as taxes are the main revenue source of the U.S. government.

Good Catholic school ya got there.

[Immortal Goat]

Very well put, Emu. Now where the hell did I put the tylenol?

[FS]

I think technically, indulgencies were more like forgiveness checks. i.e, you committed adultery, went to the church, paid some money and got a plaque or paper that stated that you were forgiven for your sin.

I believe they had them for all kinds of sins, no doubt the more common the sin, the higher the price.

[Sethomas]

As the integer stated, you can't buy the forgiveness of sins with an indulgence and you never could. The only method of remission of sins has always been the sacrament of reconciliation. An indulgence is any act done to shorten one's stay in purgatory. The doctrine for this has been around since the turn of the 11th century.

Hell was invented as a means of control. The reason it is ever mentioned in the Bible is because the Bible was written in the Middle Ages.

That statement is truly more asinine than anything Vince has ever said. The Bible was not written, in any portion, during the Middle Ages. The New Testament was written in the first century of the common era, though apocryphal literature abounded for centuries more. On your dipshit idea that it was revised in the middle ages, you should learn about a guy named Jerome. In the 390s he translated the Old and New Testaments into vernacular Latin, calling it the Vulgate. This is the version of the bible that was used from that time until the second vatican council. That's not a point of faith, that's raw history.

[ranxer]

hell is working for most any of the major corporations in a third world nation at three - ten cents an hour..

any other hell is fiction to scare people into following the status quo that writes the history and propoganda to keep the real hell hidden behind the glossy parade of lifeless packaging.

just my opinion

of course there are well meaning people that believe in the biblical hell, which is fine by me if they aren't walmart shoppers or ignorant of the way most of our profit is made.

[mburbank]

Hell is far too petty a concept to be Divine in nature. Of course, it really doesn't matter wjhat I believe. It's more like what God believes. And what if God is petty by nature?

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Hell is far too petty a concept to be Divine in nature. Of course, it really doesn't matter wjhat I believe. It's more like what God believes. And what if God is petty by nature?

He did screw Job to settle a bet with the devil. I think.

[El Blanco]

Hell is the absence of God and His grace.

Basically, when you sin, you are putting yourself above God. You are saying, "I really don't need God." So, by sending you the plave He is completly absent from, He is just giving you want you wanted.

[FS]

"the status quo"

[Bennett]

if god was so concerned with what I wanted, I would've received Jetfire for christmas sometime between the ages of 4 to 9.

[mburbank]

the Hell is the absence line of reasoning is the kind of sissified talk that came with modern architcture churches and priest playing guitar at youth groups.

Here's what I want to know, is the absence of God's grace literal hellfire, is it being in a lake of fire for all eternity.

And for the record, it's the ternity part I find oetty, not the punishment or removal from grace part of it. I mean, eternity is a hell of harsh punishment for crap you pulled during your four score and twenty. It just seems mean.

[Spectre X]

really, how can we know that the bible wasn't slightly altered by the corrupt priests and popes and cardinals and bishops of the dark ages? I mean, they were in latin, which Martin Luther acted out against, having it printed in German etc. etc. etc. but the thing is, the priests could have altered what they wanted or said what they wanted the masses to believe what the bible said.

and numbers guy, indulgences could be bought to find forgiveness for all your sins. killed someone? meh, here's an indulgance for it if you give me money. you want to go to heaven? Alltight, then kill that person for me, you'll be forgiven.

seriously, the priests in the dark ages royally screwed to poulace over by telling them that the bible said what they wanted to say so that they could controll the people.

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Here's what I want to know, is the absence of God's grace literal hellfire, is it being in a lake of fire for all eternity.

Maybe the suffering part comes from the fact that you know, irrefutably, that God exists, and that you know he'll never be a part of your life, period.

[El Blanco]

Its emptiness, it is darkness. You are in this lone, solitary existence with no hope, love, or comfort. Its solitary confinement for all eternity.

Max, does that really sound soft to you?

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by El Blanco

Its emptiness, it is darkness. You are in this lone, solitary existence with no hope, love, or comfort. Its solitary confinement for all eternity.

Max, does that really sound soft to you?

It sounds like my freshman year of college.

[Immortal Goat]

Originally Posted by O71394658

Ever heard of Purgatory? Indulgences weren't used to gain access to heaven. They were only used to shorten one's time span in Purgatory. The concept that money would get you into Heaven is completely blasphemous, and contrary to the doctrine of Christian faith.

Yeah, I've heard of Purgatory, and guess what. IT'S A CROCK OF SHIT!! The Catholic Church has even admitted it. They invented it to ONCE AGAIN sell indulgences. I may have mis-spoken when I called them Heaven Tickets, but they sure were not anything other than the Medieval version of the "Get Rich Quick" scheme.

[kellychaos]

Why does Hell sound so much like the Hades in Greek mythology?