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  #101  
derrida derrida is offline
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 03:58 AM       
That editorial was pretty stupid.

Why go through all that trouble to defend the use of a politically expedient buzzword that was deployed only to assuage criticism that the "war on terror" actually has a focus on something other than a general methodology, particularly when that word serves only to obfuscate the true nature of political Islam? Why use a word that holds a specific historicity in ancient Rome and later as an influential idea in 20th century Europe when the apparent links between these two movements are the result of wholly different historical situations? (for example, strict interpretation of the Koran and subsequent implementation of such in government can be traced to the emergence of the wahabbist movement which, like the protestant reformation of europe, dispensed with the more mystical aspects of religious practice and emphasized more practical, concrete applications of scripture.)

Talking about Islamic fascism is even less productive than talking about "Nazi fascism"; at least in the latter case the suffix possibly aids in small part an understanding of Nazism as such by placing it within an intellectual and political era influenced in part by fascists.

The whole thing also plays into a tendency among many people to equate any current threat with that of 1940's Europe, a problem which made war inevitable.
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 05:53 AM       
Derrida, typically you want to sanitize the conversation and reframe it under some loopy terms you can grasp, rather then learn the history itself....here's a really basic brush up through some excerpts of a 3 part series...

Islamism, Fascism and terrorism
by Marc Erikson
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DK05Ak01.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DK08Ak03.html

Quote:
"Such convergence of views, methods and goals goes back to the 1920s when both Islamism and fascism, ideologically pre-shaped in the late 19th century, emerged as organized political movements with the ultimate aim of seizing state power and imposing their ideological and social policy precepts (in which aims fascism, of course, succeeded in the early '20s and '30s in Italy and Germany, respectively; Islamism only in 1979 in Iran; then in Sudan and Afghanistan). Both movements claim to be the true representatives of some arcane, idealized religious or ethnically pure communities of days long past - in the case of Islamism, the period of the four "righteous caliphs" (632-662), notably the rule of Umar bin al-Khattab (634-44) which allegedly exemplifies "din wa dawla", the unity of religion and state; in the case of the Nazis, the even more obscure Aryan "Volksgemeinschaft", with no historical reference point at all. But both are in reality - as historian Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, puts it - 20th century outgrowths, radical movements, utopian and totalitarian in their outlook. The Iranian scholars Ladan and Roya Boroumand have made the same point.

The Nazi ("national socialist") movement was formed in reaction to the World War I destruction of the "Second Reich", the "unequal and treasonous" Versailles Treaty and the mass social dislocation that followed, its racialist, corporatist ideology laid out in Hitler's Mein Kampf (My Struggle). The Muslim Brotherhood (Al Ikhwan Al Muslimun), parent organization of numerous Islamist terrorist outfits, was formed in 1928 in reaction to the 1924 abolition of the caliphate by Turkish reformer Kemal Ataturk, drawing the consequences of the World War I demise of the Ottoman Empire. Ikhwan founder Hassan al-Banna, an Egyptian school teacher, wrote at the time that it was endless contemplation of "the sickness that has reduced the ummah (Muslim community) to its present state" which prompted him and five like-minded followers - all of them in their early twenties - to set up the organization to rectify it. "....."Al-Banna's brotherhood, initially limiting itself to spiritual and moral reform, grew at astonishing speed in the 1930s and '40s after embracing wider political goals and by the end of World War II had around 500,000 members in Egypt alone and branches throughout the Middle East. Event background, ideology, and method of organizing all account for its improbable success. As the war drew to a close, the time was ripe for an end to British and French colonial rule and the Ikhwan was ready with the persuasive, religiously-buttressed answer: Free the Islamic homeland from foreign, infidel (kafir) control; establish a unified Islamic state. And al-Banna had built a formidable organization to accomplish just that: it featured sophisticated governance structures, sections in charge of different segments of society (peasants, workers, professionals), units entrusted with key functions (propaganda, press relations, translation, liaison with the Islamic world), and specialized committees for finances and legal affairs - all built on existing social networks, in particular those around mosques and Islamic welfare associations. Weaving of traditional ties into a distinctly modern political structure was at the root of al-Banna's success..

But the "Supreme Guide" of the brethren knew that faith, good works and numbers alone do not a political victory make. Thus, modeled on Mussolini's blackshirts (al-Banna much admired "Il Duce" and soul brother "Fuehrer" Adolf Hitler), he set up a paramilitary wing (slogan: "action, obedience, silence", quite superior to the blackshirts' "believe, obey, fight") and a "secret apparatus" (al-jihaz al-sirri) and intelligence arm of al-Ikhwan to handle the dirtier side - terrorist attacks, assassinations, and so on - of the struggle for power."

Quote:

"One of those executed by hanging was chief ideologue Sayyid Qutb. Al-Zawahiri is Qutb's intellectual heir; he has further developed his message, and is putting it into practise.

But without Qutb, present-day Islamism as a noxious amalgam of fascist totalitarianism and extremes of Islamic fundamentalism would not exist. His principal "accomplishment" was to articulate the social and political practices of the Muslim Brotherhood from the 1930s through the 1950s - including collaboration with fascist regimes and organizations, involvement in anti-colonial, anti-Western and anti-Israeli actions, and the struggle for state power in Egypt - in demagogically persuasive fashion, buttressed by tendentious references to Islamic law and scriptures to deceive the faithful. Qutb, a one-time literary critic, was not a religious fundamentalist, but a Goebbels-style propagandist for a new totalitarianism to stand side-by-side with fascism and communism."
Quote:
"Substitute religious for racial purity, the idealized ummah of the rule of the four righteous caliphs of the mid-7th century for the mythical Aryan "Volksgemeinschaft", and most ideological and organizational precepts of Nazism laid out by chief theoretician Alfred Rosenberg in his work The Myth of the 20th Century and by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, and later put into practice, are in all essential respects identical to the precepts of the Muslim Brotherhood after its initial phase as a group promoting spiritual and moral reform. This ranges from radical rejection of "decadent" Western political and economic liberalism (instead embracing the "leadership principle" and corporatist organization of the economy) to endorsement of the use of terror and assassinations to seize and hold state power, and all the way to concoction of fantastical anti-Semitic conspiracy theories linking international plutocratic finance to Freemasonry, Zionism and all-encompassing Jewish world control.

Not surprisingly then, as Italian and German fascism sought greater stakes in the Middle East in the 1930s and '40s to counter British and French controlling power, close collaboration between fascist agents and Islamist leaders ensued. During the 1936-39 Arab Revolt, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of German military intelligence, sent agents and money to support the Palestine uprising against the British, as did Muslim Brotherhood founder and "supreme guide" Hassan al-Banna. A key individual in the fascist-Islamist nexus and go-between for the Nazis and al-Banna became the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini - incidentally the later mentor (from 1946 onward) of a young firebrand by the name of Yasser Arafat

Having fled from Palestine to Iraq, el-Husseini assisted there in the short-lived April 1941 Nazi-inspired and financed anti-British coup. By June 1941, British forces had reasserted control in Baghdad and the mufti was on the run again, this time via Tehran and Rome to Berlin, to a hero's welcome. He remained in Germany as an honored guest and valuable intelligence and propaganda asset through most of the war, met with Hitler on several occasions, and personally recruited leading members of the Bosnian-Muslim "Hanjar" (saber) division of the Waffen SS.

Another valued World War II Nazi collaborator was Youssef Nada, current board chairman of al-Taqwa (Nada Management), the Lugano, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Bahamas-based financial services outfit accused by the US Treasury Department of money laundering for and financing of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda. As a young man, he had joined the armed branch of the "secret apparatus" (al-jihaz al-sirri) of the Muslim Brotherhood and then was recruited by German military intelligence. When Grand Mufti el-Husseini had to flee Germany in 1945 as the Nazi defeat loomed, Nada reportedly was instrumental in arranging the escape via Switzerland back to Egypt and eventually Palestine, where el-Husseini resurfaced in 1946.
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 06:03 AM       
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27b/082.html
Quote:
"Islamism, or fascism with an Islamic face, was born with and of the Muslim Brotherhood. It proved (and improved) its fascist core convictions and practices through collaboration with the Nazis in the run-up to and during World War II. It proved it during the same period through its collaboration with the overtly fascist Young Egypt (Misr al-Fatah) movement, founded in October 1933 by lawyer Ahmed Hussein and modeled directly on the Hitler party, complete with paramilitary Green Shirts aping the Nazi Brown Shirts, Nazi salute and literal translations of Nazi slogans. Among its members, Young Egypt counted two promising youngsters and later presidents, Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar El-Sadat.".....
"Whether al-Banna, who had already been in contact with German agents since the 1936-39 Palestine uprising against the British, or someone else introduced Sadat and his free officer comrades to German military intelligence is not known. But in the summer of 1942, when Rommel's Afrikakorps stood just over 100 kilometers from Alexandria and were poised to march into Cairo, Sadat, Nasser and their buddies were in close touch with the German attacking force and—with Brotherhood help—preparing an anti-British uprising in Egypt's capital. A treaty with Germany including provisions for German recognition of an independent, but pro-Axis Egypt had been drafted by Sadat, guaranteeing that no British soldier would leave Cairo alive. When Rommel's push east failed at El Alamein in the fall of 1942, Sadat and several of his co-conspirators were arrested by the British and sat out much of the remainder of the war in jail.

Islamist-fascist collaboration did not cease with war's end. King Farouk brought large numbers of German military and intelligence personnel as well as ranking (ex-) Nazis into Egypt as advisors. It was a bad move. Several of the Germans, recognizing Farouk's political weakness, soon began conspiring with Nasser and his free officers (who, in turn, were working closely with the Brotherhood) to overthrow the king. On July 23, 1952, the deed was done and Newsweek marveled that, The most intriguing aspect [of] the revolt ... was the role played in the coup by the large group of German advisors serving with the Egyptian army ... The young officers who did the actual planning consulted the German advisors as to 'tactics' ... This accounted for the smoothness of the operation.

And yet another player fond of playing all sides against the middle had entered the game prior to Farouk's ouster: In 1951, the CIA's Kermit Roosevelt (grandson of president Teddy, who in 1953 would organize the overthrow of elected Iranian leader Mohammed Mossadegh and install Reza Pahlavi as Shah) opened secret negotiations with Nasser. Agreement was soon reached that the US, post-coup, would assist in building up Egypt's intelligence and security forces—in the obvious manner, by reinforcing Nasser's existing Germans with additional, more capable, ones. For that, CIA head Allen Dulles turned to Reinhard Gehlen, one-time head of eastern front German military intelligence and by the early 1950s in charge of developing a new German foreign intelligence service. Gehlen hired the best man he knew for the job—former SS colonel Otto Skorzeny, who at the end of the war had organized the infamous ODESSA network to facilitate the escape of high-ranking Nazis to Latin America (mainly Peron's Argentina) and Egypt. With Skorzeny now on the job of assisting Nasser, Egypt became a safe haven for Nazi war criminals galore. The CIA officer in charge of the Egypt assistance program was Miles Copeland, soon a Nasser intimate.".......

"Sayyid Qutb was born in 1906 in a small village in Upper Egypt, was educated at a secular college, and subsequently worked as an inspector of schools for the ministry of education. In the 1930s and 1940s, nothing pointed to his later role. He wrote literary criticism, hung out in coffee houses, and published a novel which flopped. His conversion to radical Islam came during two-and-a-half years of graduate studies in education in the United States (1948-51). He came to hate everything American, described churches as entertainment centers and sexual playgrounds, was shocked by the freedom allowed to women, and immediately upon his return to Egypt joined the Muslim Brotherhood and assumed the position of editor-in-chief of the organization's newspaper.

While in jail, Qutb wrote a 30-volume (!) commentary on the Koran; but his most influential book, published in 1965 after his 1964 release from prison for health reasons, was Ma'alim fi'l-tariq (Signposts on the Road, also translated as Milestones). In it, he revised Hassan al-Banna's concept of establishing an Islamic state in Egypt after the nation was thoroughly Islamized, advocating instead—fascist or Bolshevik-style—that a revolutionary vanguard should first seize state power and then impose Islamization from above. Trouble is, this recipe went against the unambiguous Muslim prohibition against overthrowing a Muslim ruler."
And then part 4 he links it all to Al Qaeda...
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27b/083.html
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  #104  
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 09:18 AM       
"Derrida, typically you want to sanitize the conversation and reframe it under some loopy terms you can grasp, rather then learn the history itself"

Know what, Acbsdhsj?

No matter what the discussion is about, no matter what arguments you bring, this sentence shows you are just a total solopsistic dick, and an angry intellectual bully.
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  #105  
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 10:59 AM       
Since we're branding our enemy, I think we should just call them Evil Sand Nazis from Planet X.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 12:59 PM       
I don't know, that's not ad, but I think they should have something more SPOOKY, like COBRA or S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 01:30 PM       
Well, that would infer an organizational structure. I'm all for fighting COBRA, but unfortunately they won't hold meetings, elect a leader and wear the uniforms we sent them. Uncooperative little buggers.

Ok, more spooky... Evil Nazi Sand Zombies from HELL. A little wordy, but better than Islamofascist. I think I really am getting behind this branding effort. For one thing, hearing the clumsy concoctions hastily slapped together through random happenstance gets a little old sometimes. The Plotters? The Shoe Bomber? Come on. Islamofascist sounds like it fell out of the same bin that produced Metrosexual. I want to call them something so bad it would still sound nasty if Daffy Duck were saying it.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 03:06 PM       
Yup, it's groundhogs day around here. Same tired old shit. Maybe if you got educated yourself on the topic I'd be inspired to put a little more effort into a clever response.
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 03:14 PM       
Speaking of the ame tired old shit, Hi, Abcdxxx.

Seriously, you are a gigantic dick. You're like Phd's I know who flip out if you don't call them Doctor.

It isn't 'effort' you don't want to put in, you do that all the time. "A++" for effort for you. It's that you are totally binary.

Setting A: I know more about the middle east then you and unless you read all the books I have (and if you did you'd have to agree with me totally, because this isn't about interpretation it's about truth, which I own) I'm right DE FACTO, so START READING MY SYllABUS.

Setting B: I don't have to substantiate my dickness. Nobody cares. I sure don't care. You know what I mean. It's totally clear. I don't care. Did I mention I don't care, last post?


Resolved: You are an insufferable dick. Take the pro or the con.
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 04:25 PM       
Okay. Don't debate the topic. If you could refute any of this, you obviously would.
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 09:31 PM       
If I start a whole knew thread about what a Dick you are, will that make you happy?
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Old Sep 8th, 2006, 11:41 PM       
Wouldn't it just be easier to stick to the thread you made right here, and oh I don't know, stay on topic?
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Old Sep 9th, 2006, 12:02 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Yup, it's groundhogs day around here. Same tired old shit. Maybe if you got educated yourself on the topic I'd be inspired to put a little more effort into a clever response.
Well, either that or you're just a dittohead that can't respond to anyone who disagrees with you in a non-hostile way.

One or the other.
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Old Sep 9th, 2006, 12:03 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Okay. Don't debate the topic. If you could refute any of this, you obviously would.
Heh. Look who's talking. Anytime anyone disagrees with you, you begin insulting them, to avoid having to admit you don't have an answer.
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Old Sep 9th, 2006, 02:45 PM       
Insult me all you want but there's been 11 posts since I posted the excerpts from that essay, and not one has addressed the content.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 9th, 2006, 08:10 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Good Reverend Roger
Heh. Look who's talking. Anytime anyone disagrees with you, you begin insulting them, to avoid having to admit you don't have an answer.
You relinquished all of your rights to pass judgement in this thread a long time ago, after you googled the author of an editorial in order to complain about him. At least derrida picked apart the content, which you are obvioulsy ill equipped to do.
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Old Sep 10th, 2006, 12:07 AM       
Another lengthy, well researched article ...

A mosque for ex-Nazis became center of radical Islam
Tuesday, July 12, 2005
By Ian Johnson, The Wall Street Journal
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05193/536684.stm
Quote:
The mosque's history, however, tells a more-tumultuous story. Buried in government and private archives are hundreds of documents that trace the battle to control the Islamic Center of Munich. Never before made public, the material shows how radical Islam established one of its first and most important beachheads in the West when a group of ex-Nazi soldiers decided to build a mosque.

The soldiers' presence in Munich was part of a nearly forgotten subplot to World War II: the decision by tens of thousands of Muslims in the Soviet Red Army to switch sides and fight for Hitler. After the war, thousands sought refuge in West Germany, building one of the largest Muslim communities in 1950s Europe. When the Cold War heated up, they were a coveted prize for their language skills and contacts back in the Soviet Union. For more than a decade, U.S., West German, Soviet and British intelligence agencies vied for control of them in the new battle of democracy versus communism.
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Old Sep 10th, 2006, 03:14 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Good Reverend Roger
Heh. Look who's talking. Anytime anyone disagrees with you, you begin insulting them, to avoid having to admit you don't have an answer.
You relinquished all of your rights to pass judgement in this thread a long time ago, after you googled the author of an editorial in order to complain about him. At least derrida picked apart the content, which you are obvioulsy ill equipped to do.
I didn't have to google Victor Hanson.

Why do you lie like that?
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Old Sep 10th, 2006, 09:04 AM       
Because he Kevin and Acdxxxx, although very different people, share a copywrite on TRUTH.

And you know, it's not what you read, it's that you have to read what they read when they tell you to. And then, should you disagree, you'll need to read a lot of other stuff they tell you to.
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Old Sep 10th, 2006, 10:18 AM       
Max, you're embarrassing yourself.

Did you see me attack derrida? I think he/she made some good points, which I intend to respond to when I get a chance.

Reverend what'shisname knows nothing about the author, so he went and found what he could in order to dismiss the subject at hand.

I know now that Reverend simply can't put a competent counter-argument together, which is why he's forced to grasp at straws. You on the other hand, having known you, are very capable of actually debating an issue without pouting, complaining, and attacking people personally.

I have responded directly to your concerns with the Fascism/Nazi comparison, and you ignored it. You became more interested in shadowing every word posted by abc, rather than confronting our ideas and proving us to be wrong. So since my words words were appaently just being ignored, I posted an Op/Ed that articulated my point a little bit better. Abc subsequently posted others that make good arguments.

I don't care who's smarter, who has read more books, or who's really Jewish. I care about the topic, and that's what I'd like to discuss.
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Old Sep 11th, 2006, 09:39 AM       
"Because he Kevin and Acdxxxx, although very different people, share a copywrite on TRUTH. "
-Me, commenting on posting stylistics.

"Max, you're embarrassing yourself."
-Kevin, Mistaking his personal reaction (internal) for an action on my part (external)

"I know now that Reverend simply can't put a competent counter-argument together, which is why he's forced to grasp at straws."
-Kevin, defining someone out of the debate, as in 'Reverend so-and-so simply can't speak English.

These to me, seem like copywrites on truth.

"You on the other hand, having known you, are very capable of actually debating an issue."
-Kevin, setting up a back handed compliment, a form a certainly appreciatte, but a structure that is certainly a complaint, and if not pouty is passive agressive. I am indeed capable of debate, as you noted. I have lately become disinclined because I believe your tone has come to lack even the possability of error. Abcdxxxxx's tone has been ever thus (THUS, I said.) unto (UNTO) the point of clownishness. It was wrong of me to lump the two of you together, as I find him Hilarrious while you arte making me sad.

Respectfully, I realize this is off topic, but were I to make a seperate thread for it, you might duck into a phone booth or supply closet and re-emerge, your powers of moderation a-rippling.
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Old Sep 11th, 2006, 09:51 AM       
And still you refuse to discuss the issue.
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Old Sep 11th, 2006, 11:04 AM       
Fine, snootypants.

I moved it. You can respond to it or lock it or make it into a party hat.

"Max, I'd like for you to elaborate on this comment. Do you think he's incorrect b/c Muhammed simply doesn't hold much stature in the "ME"? Did Muhammed preach or practice peaceful Islam?

Which is it?"

Kevin, quite frankly I missed that post in the absolute blizzard of other crap in this thread. To respond, BECAUSE I RESPECT YOU,

I said Muslims had no single leader, no voice they all answered, even remotely comparable to Hitler. Abcdxx responded "What about Muhammed" and I said that was one of te stupidest things he'd ever said.

I didn't take it any further because I thout it was self evident. However unlike him, I am perfectly willing to accept your question as proof my meaning was NOT self evident, and so BECAUSE I REPECT YOU I will respond.

Quite frankly, I don't know anywhere near enough about the Koran to begin to discuss wether or not it preaches 'peaceful Islam' and make any sort of comparison to Nazism in particular or fascism in general, or even violence as a political, social or religous tool.

Here's what I do know. The Koran is and has been historically open to a wide number of interpretations, as have the speciffic words of their Prophet. The same can hardly be said for Hitler during his lifetime. His officers and soldiers were not allowed to 'interpret' his orders, there weren't multiple schools of thought on what he meant. I see little to no comparison between a totalitarian dictator during his lifetime and a religous leader dead for hundreds of years. If you want a comparison, you could look to living leaders capable of enforcing their will as they themselves interpret it. Al sadr, Hussein, whomever, and that was exactly my initial point. We are fighting multiple factions even within the three main ethnic divisions, complicated by countries, tribes, economies, histories, etc, etc, etc.

Of course Muhamed holds stature, but he does not personally enforce and interpret his will. I find comparison between a monolithic nation ruled by a speciffic dictator and a huge, fractured region influenced however strongly (and of course it's very strongly) by the written words ascribed to a man long dead. I find a comparison between Hitlers leadership of the Nazis and Mohameds influence on Muslis, even if you only want to talk about radicalized Muslims, well, stupid. Not to put to fine a point on it.

I hope I have now adressed your query in such a way that you personally feel I have not embarassed myself further, but only because I RESPECT YOU and not because I feel your ownership of the truth is such that you are empowered to make such determinations.
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Old Sep 11th, 2006, 01:19 PM       
Nobody compared Muhammed to Hitler. It's the Islamic fascist belief of Muhammed that makes him a unifying figurehead for their movement. Wether their viewpoint is accurate is an entirely different topic entirely.
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Old Sep 11th, 2006, 03:53 PM       
" They don't have a leader that commands loyalty on even a remote par with Hitler."
-Me, making a point about why the Nazi analogy doesn't work.

"Unlike the Nazis, the Islamic fascists "answer" to the call of many leaders... dead ones...Muhammed ring a bell?"
-You making a point about... well, I'm not really sure.

I don't believe a dead person can be a leader. The instructions of the dead are alway open to interpretation, there is no method by which you can say which living persons interpretation is more valid and far from unifying, the words of dead lead almost inexorably to factionilization and power struggles. The "Islamic Facists" are not a group, do not recognize themselves as a group, cannot even put aside their fraticidal killing to focus fully on any common goals they may have. Ergo, the whole WWII anaolgy is useless as a tool for understanding, which is unsurprsing since it's intent is solely to influence the upcoming American elections.

I'm hardly in a position to criticize you for going off topic, but that analogy is what this thread is about.
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