Go Back   I-Mockery Forum > I-Mockery Discussion Forums > Philosophy, Politics, and News
FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
Queen of the Beasts
Jeanette X's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: in my burrow
Jeanette X is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 05:55 PM        The Scholar in Me Weeps
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0414/p08s02-wome.html


World > Middle East
from the April 14, 2003 edition


EMPTY DISPLAY: A man in the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad peers into a smashed case that once held a 4,500-year-old marble plaque.
ANDY NELSON/STAFF



Looters plunder in minutes Iraq's millennia-old legacy

By Mary Wiltenburg and Philip Smucker

BOSTON AND BAGHDAD – He could see the mob coming, and feared not for his life, but for the treasures of Iraq's ancient past - some of them 7,000 years old - that had been left in his care.
"I took my white underpants off and put them on a stick and ran up the street to the US Marines," says archaeologist Mohsin Kadun. "I asked them - no, begged them - to help me preserve our treasures, but they would not drive down the street."

This past weekend, the frenzy of looting that has engulfed Baghdad since US troops took control of the city last Wednesday spread to the one place archaeologists worldwide hoped might be spared: the Iraqi National Museum. As hundreds of looters ran down the halls, stealing or smashing almost 70 percent of the repository's valuable statues, carvings, and artifacts, Mr. Kadun, a 30-year museum employee, stood helpless at the gates, screaming.

Iraq has been called one giant historic site, and for 80 years its national Museum has been the repository of irreplaceable records and collections of ancient art and artifacts from the country's Babylonian, Assyrian, and Mesopotamian past. The ransacking has caused incalculable loss to Iraq's, and the world's, cultural heritage, experts say. "If Iraq has anything besides oil, any meaning for humanity, it is in this history," says Paul Zimansky, professor of Near Eastern archaeology at Boston University.

Before the war began, Kadun was in charge of moving artifacts into two giant vaults to prevent them from crashing off their pedestals as US bombs shook Baghdad. Other archaeologists also took protective measures. A group of scholars, conservators, and collectors, including MacGuire Gibson of the University of Chicago, the leading US researcher in Mesopotamian archaeology, drew up a list for the Pentagon of more than 4,000 crucial Iraqi museums, monuments, and archaeological digs, urging commanders to spare them. "The museum was at the top of that list," Dr. Gibson says.

When the bombs stopped falling, the museum stood intact, its marvelous stores untouched. But US forces apparently made no plans for defending it against plunder.

Kadun, and one lone guard watched as the thieves pried open the vaults, grabbing gold necklaces and precious stones. When those were gone, they fell upon the magnificent, inscribed carvings. With carts, cars, and blankets, they hauled off the treasures of seven millennia, taking with them the cultural memory of this already traumatized nation. Among the losses: two Babylonian lions, made of baked clay, a 4,000-year-old collection of tablets laying out exercises for schoolchildren, a 5,000-year-old statue of a bearded man holding a vase.

Dr. Gibson learned of the looting on Friday, when the mob had only sacked the museum's first floor, and not yet its vaults. "That's as if somebody had gotten into the Metropolitan [Museum in New York] and taken everything out of half of it," he said, his voice shaking.

Sunday, with the threat of more vandalism, US forces still had not arrived to secure the museum. "It reflects badly on us as Americans," says Dr. Zimansky. "We've behaved like absolute barbarians. OK, you can blame a mob, but they looted because law and order was broken down, and we broke it down. Then we stood by and watched."

The losses are particularly galling, experts say, because unlike in Afghanistan, where looting and destruction of artifacts had been under way for decades before US forces arrived, Iraq had a long history of exquisite record-keeping and official protection, although in the past 13 years the country saw the defiling of provincial museums and historic sites, first in the chaos after the 1991 Gulf War and then during the economic devastation of the embargo.

James Armstrong, assistant curator of Harvard University's Semitic Museum, says he hopes that once order is restored in Iraq at least some of the stolen treasures can be recovered. In postwar Afghanistan, authorities set up checkpoints and caught some of the smugglers trying to take Buddhist artifacts into Pakistan. Iraqi artifacts will be more valuable to international collectors, but scholars say some stolen items are so well-known that they'll be impossible to sell and could in time be returned.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
punkgrrrlie10 punkgrrrlie10 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
punkgrrrlie10 is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 06:02 PM       
well since war was coming you think they would've started to ship stuff out just in case. It's not like people can't ship exhibits and it's not like they didn't see war coming.

This really sucks though.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
AChimp AChimp is offline
Resident Chimp
AChimp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Jungles of Borneo
AChimp is probably a real personAChimp is probably a real person
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 06:21 PM       
I don't think that Iraq was going to start shipping it's national treasures into hiding places, especially since they thought they were going to win to begin with.

It would have been like admitting defeat!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 06:49 PM       
I can't even comment on this yet. As a Museum person this hits home in a way I can't even express, especially where I've spent the last four months working with an exhibit from the Cairo Museum, the only collection on earth comprable to the one we're discussing here.

I heard an interview earlier today from a currator who been working with the US government, letting them know where all the major archeological sites were, and where the collections were housed.

Protecting this Museum was supposed to be a major priority.

There's no way an article can express the importance of this collection, not just in the arab world but to all mankind. This is (was) the record of man's first civilization. Many artifacts will be reocvered on the black market, I suppose, but much of the stored materials will be seperated from their documentation (Where they were found, what strata, what was near them, etc.) .
Reply With Quote
  #5  
theapportioner theapportioner is offline
Mocker
theapportioner's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
theapportioner is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 06:58 PM       
You would bet that there would be a much larger holler if people raided the Smithsonian and National Archives, and stole the Wright Bros. airplane and the Declaration of Independence, among other things.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
punkgrrrlie10 punkgrrrlie10 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
punkgrrrlie10 is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 08:47 PM       
Quote:
I don't think that Iraq was going to start shipping it's national treasures into hiding places, especially since they thought they were going to win to begin with.
Why not? Wasn't it done during WWII?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
AChimp AChimp is offline
Resident Chimp
AChimp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Jungles of Borneo
AChimp is probably a real personAChimp is probably a real person
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 08:52 PM       
Yeah... but the Nazis were big fans of art and weren't likely to destroy anything or sell it to the highest bidder.

You're forgetting that with the war in Iraq the U.S. is dealing with a whole different kind of people and ideology. Allah, afterall, assures them of victory. Coalition forces were supposed to have been destroyed before they got anywhere near the museums.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
Queen of the Beasts
Jeanette X's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: in my burrow
Jeanette X is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 09:08 PM       
Quote:
Yeah... but the Nazis were big fans of art and weren't likely to destroy anything or sell it to the highest bidder.
What about the "degenerate art" exhibitions the Nazis put up?
Quote:
You're forgetting that with the war in Iraq the U.S. is dealing with a whole different kind of people and ideology. Allah, afterall, assures them of victory. Coalition forces were supposed to have been destroyed before they got anywhere near the museums.
Saddam's regime wasn't a fundamentalist one. They were secular Arab nationalists!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
AChimp AChimp is offline
Resident Chimp
AChimp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Jungles of Borneo
AChimp is probably a real personAChimp is probably a real person
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 09:37 PM       
I was refering to the private collections/hordes that were gathered by the top officials, but yeah, there was still lots that got destroyed.

Most of it was relatively recent work, though. I don't think any Renaissance paintings were destroyed, though a lot certainly disappeared and was scattered (I personally think it's all at the bottom of a lake in the Alps)

Quote:
They were secular Arab nationalists!
You should have been listening to what the Iraqi Minister of Information had to say!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
GAsux GAsux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
GAsux is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 09:40 PM        Silly kids....
Iraq didn't put it's national treasures into hiding because all the good hiding places are filled with WMD! Duh.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
Queen of the Beasts
Jeanette X's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: in my burrow
Jeanette X is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 09:43 PM       
Quote:
You should have been listening to what the Iraqi Minister of Information had to say!
That was propeganda designed to get the support of the Iraqi people. The regime didnt actually believe any of its own rhetoric!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
Mocker
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Abcdxxxx is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 10:12 PM       
Aport - that comment was just dumb. Anyone reading that story is outraged, and if you're suggesting we didn't protect the museum because ancient artifacts aren't as popular as pop culture iconography ...then yeah that was just dumb.

Chimp - The Nazis destroyed TONS of artifacts and art that didn't fit their mindset, what are you talking about? Even after reading your clarification i'm still wondering..what are you talking about?

Jeanette - Saddam ran a secular government, it doesn't mean that his people were secular Arab nationalists. Saddam isn't an atheist btw.

Chances are anything that didn't compliment the Islamic fundamentalists had already been destroyed or sold a long time ago. I doubt we're talking about a collection in the league of the Egyptians. I have a feeling a lot of it will be returned, or wasn't all that special to begin with. Iraq today shows little respect for history or it's past... everything was detroyed and rebuilt... so let's not romanticize their respect for things like museums. Take a look at early photographs of how Iraq once looked and you'll cry. Still, they should have protected the museum out of respect alone.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
theapportioner theapportioner is offline
Mocker
theapportioner's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
theapportioner is probably a spambot
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 10:41 PM       
I thought my point was obvious enough. I don't know what you're reading bucko.

It's no stretch to say that the majority of people in the United States just don't give much of a damn about the looting of this museum (or the crises in the hospitals, the ethnic and religious clashes... I digress). Rather, it's seen as "too bad", and people shrug their shoulders. A disingenuous empathy of tragedy.

With any big art heist (take the Gardner museum heist for example) you learn precisely what was stolen -- perhaps it's simply too early, and there is certainly a glut of news these days, but I doubt the American mainstream media will provide us with a catalog of the pilfered and destroyed items in this museum, even though the loss is orders of magnitude greater. I don't foresee Fox News doing a 2 hour special on "A Cultural Heritage Lost" anytime.

Clearly too, the military leadership and government administration don't see it as a big deal, in their own words and actions.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
AChimp AChimp is offline
Resident Chimp
AChimp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Jungles of Borneo
AChimp is probably a real personAChimp is probably a real person
Old Apr 13th, 2003, 10:44 PM       
Abcdxxxx, you are ruining my jive.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
Mocker
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Abcdxxxx is probably a spambot
Old Apr 14th, 2003, 12:04 AM       
Aport - "It's no stretch to say that the majority of people in the United States just don't give much of a damn about the looting of this museum (or the crises in the hospitals, the ethnic and religious clashes... I digress). Rather, it's seen as "too bad", and people shrug their shoulders. A disingenuous empathy of tragedy. "


Are you blind to Americas own apathy towards these same issues when domestic? Are you that out of touch to think "the majority of people in the United States" care about the fiscal status of the Smithsonian...or any status? I'm not even sure they care about Archie Bunkers chair let alone the "crises in hostpitals" or "ethnic and religious clashes". Sometimes poor reporting is just that.... sometimes it's not a national disregard for the worlds historical goods. It's like you put on your special dissent outfit on and you reallllllly wanna wear it to the parade.

Another thing.... museum quality items are stolen every fucking day. I have been in several homes filled with items stolen from various archealogical sites, or museum back doors. Now If I was head of a museum of seriously great importance, and there was looting going on, I would personally risk my life to gaurd these items myself... and I think a lot of others reading this would too. Sadly, our military didn't think of it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Apr 14th, 2003, 08:56 AM       
Abbcdzzx: You'r a huge one to bicth and moan about people not respecting your knowledge base. Now it's my turn.

Your statement about the relative merits of the Bahgdad Museum collection, it's comparison to the Cairo museum, the idea that it had already been plundered or sold, the idea that it can be restored are all highly missinformed and ignorant.

I'm a Museum professional and have spent the last hlf year wworking with currators from the Cairo Museum on the largest touring collection of artifcats from Egypt ever, "The Quest for Immortality". The subject of the Bahgdad collection came up quite frequently.

Moreover, whatever else one finds wrong with Sadham Hussein (and there's plent) not making this collection open and available to scholars just isn't true. The Museum has been an active center of scholarship and was up until few days before the bombing began, open to both Eastern and Western scholars. Your statement that the collection probably not that important is completely without merit and could easily have been checked.

The importance of this collection is inestemable and even the Egyptian currators I worked with acknowedlged it's historical significance as more important than their own. Among other things it included artifacts from the worlds first city and examples of the worlds first writting.

While the larger artifacts may well be recovered, the museum storehouses were also looted, seperating shards, fragments and other tiny artifcats from the notes on where they were dicovered, what strata they were in, what they were found along wth, etc. The Museum was protected until we overthrew the regime. They could have and should have taken precautions to remove and protct it. Their own people looted it. But we did nothing to prevent it. I think theirs plenty of blame to spread around for the loss of the single most important arhceological collection in existance.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Protoclown Protoclown is offline
The Goddamned Batman
Protoclown's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Richmond, VA
Protoclown is probably a spambot
Old Apr 14th, 2003, 01:21 PM       
It's horribly fucking depressing. The value of these items that were either stolen or destroyed is immeasurable and the vast majority of them are probably gone forever.
__________________
"It's like I'm livin' in a stinkin' poop rainbow." - Cordelia Burbank
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
Mocker
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Abcdxxxx is probably a spambot
Old Apr 14th, 2003, 05:44 PM       
Uh, no I'm not downplaying the collections importance no matter what it was. it's likely your Egyptian coworkers had the type of exposure to these babylonian artifacts denied most Western curators... but it's common sense.... look at Iraq and look at Iraq's cultural climate, and it's doubtful that the credibility of this collection was preserved. For example, It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed.... and it's doubtful that the same man who tore down ancient palaces would see the merit in historical archeaology.

On a side note - Fox News (I'm watching a lot of it today for some reason) is reporting this story in length with the Director of the NY Met commenting. Apparently the Pentagon were aware of these museums and their importance and warned of this.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Apr 14th, 2003, 07:13 PM       
Not only were they warned, protecting the collection was supposed to be a major priority. And Western scholars have had access to this collection until days before the war began.

Just becuase you find it common snese means nothing in terms of the reality. The collection is well known, well documented, well studied, the museum was an active center of study until very recently and none of it's contents had it's 'credability' questioned.

"It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed"

Whie I lament the demise of Iraqi Jewry, that statement is like saying the Smithsonians collection of Native American artifacts are somehow in doubt.

I stress again, this museum was an active site for scholarship and research. Whatever his reasons may hve been, Hussein left it alone.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
Mocker
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Abcdxxxx is probably a spambot
Old Apr 14th, 2003, 09:47 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
"It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed"

Whie I lament the demise of Iraqi Jewry, that statement is like saying the Smithsonians collection of Native American artifacts are somehow in doubt.

I stress again, this museum was an active site for scholarship and research. Whatever his reasons may hve been, Hussein left it alone.
Well that's good to know. Still.. when you eradicate an entire population you rarely tend to preserve it's history. Unlike the Native Americans who continue to survive in America, run cultural centers, and curate their own museums worth of items... there are only a few dozen Iraqi Jews left, and one Temple without a Congregation. While you might think Saddam runs his museums with the integrity of a Smithsonian, I would question it...and I would wonder how likely it is that items related to Kurds and other minorities got the same treatment. If the Arab world pays no respect for Jewish life, then why on earth should one expect any better for the historical items that prove or disprove many hotly debated issues? How to explain why Saddam would protect and showcase a Jewish museum piece while destroying actual historical sites of incredible importance to documenting our civilization? Obviously you know more about the collection then I do,.... but then what can you tell me of the collection as it pertained to the historical relevance on minorities in the land... Christians, Kurds, Jews, Drus, etc. etc ?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
VinceZeb is probably a spambot
Old Apr 15th, 2003, 10:52 AM       
Let's be realistic: Freedom is scary. These people who were under a boot heel of oppression went from the chains of oppression to freedom. When you are oppressed and forced to be meager for so long, the first instinct would be to steal back what is "yours", so to speak. So they go after govt buildings, museums, etc. I give the people the benefit of the doubt of seeing these treasures as part of Saddam trying to show his great cultural history, considering the asshole thought he was an Old Testament type ruler. So I don't blame them for going apeshit.

Now, is it bad that those things were destroyed? Yep. Do I personally care? Not really. Do I believe the Iraqis will wise up and not decide to destroy their history? Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
Mocker
The_Rorschach's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WestPac
The_Rorschach is probably a spambot
Old Apr 15th, 2003, 03:03 PM       
Not to burst your little bubble of cynicism CLA, but uh. . .

http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/news...11/detail.html

U.S. Tries To Help Get Stolen Iraqi Artifacts Back

POSTED: 8:33 a.m. EDT April 15, 2003
CENTRAL COMMAND HEADQUARTERS, Qatar -- U.S. Central Command says allied forces didn't expect Iraqi treasures to be looted by the Iraqi people.

But spokesman Vincent Brooks said the coalition is now focusing on getting those treasures back. At the daily war briefing, Brooks said the power vacuum that was created when Saddam Hussein's regime fell led to the looting of artifacts from Iraqi museums and other sites.

He said the vacuum is being filled. Brooks said officials are hoping people who have information about any stolen goods will provide it. And they hope the items haven't left Iraq or turned up on the black market.

Brooks said the looted Iraqi artifacts aren't just important to the Iraqi people -- but to the whole world. He said the coalition is considering a reward system to help get the items back.

Earlier, Secretary of State Colin Powell pledged to help preserve Iraq's history.

He, too, said that the United States will play a leading role in helping the Iraqis recover artifacts stolen by looters from Iraqi museums in recent days. Powell also said the effort will involve restoring antiquities that have been damaged.

Powell said he's seeking the cooperation of the European Union and the United Nations, along with the international police agency Interpol. A State Department spokesman said the looting of artifacts is a big loss for historical research.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
Mocker
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Abcdxxxx is probably a spambot
Old Apr 15th, 2003, 03:07 PM       
This will all be old news by the time most of you read this, but the US is also offering a reward for the return of such artifacts... just the same way they're offering rewards for the capture of war criminals, and tips on finding chemicals.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
AChimp AChimp is offline
Resident Chimp
AChimp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Jungles of Borneo
AChimp is probably a real personAChimp is probably a real person
Old Apr 15th, 2003, 03:23 PM       
I thought that the U.S. didn't need the UN for anything, so why are they asking for its assistance in this matter?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
theapportioner theapportioner is offline
Mocker
theapportioner's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
theapportioner is probably a spambot
Old Apr 15th, 2003, 04:29 PM       
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=2684

This is infuriating and absolutely negligent.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

   


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:45 AM.


© 2008 I-Mockery.com
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.