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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 08:13 AM        Why does it bother some that George Bush is Christian?
source: http://www.opinionjournal.com/column.../?id=110003379

Cross Fire
President Bush is a Christian. Why does that bother people?

BY ROBERT L. BARTLEY
Monday, April 21, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

Easter Monday is an apt time to note that President George W. Bush has been taking darts as a born-again Christian. This tells us something about today's president, and something more about today's religion.

The president comes by his faith, of course, because he stopped drinking and found God at age 40. As a Methodist, he's not exactly a speaking-in-tongues Pentecostal, but he clearly does believe that good and evil walk the world. He also says things such as, "Behind all of life and all of history, there's a dedication and a purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God." This comes from the Presidential Prayer Breakfast, where other presidents have said similar things. But both friend and foe have the sense that Mr. Bush really means it.

The surprising thing is how much of the carping about the president's religion, especially in the context of war against Saddam Hussein, comes from the ranks of those who represent religion. Thus prominent theologian Martin Marty pens a piece in Newsweek entitled "The Sin of Pride," complaining about the President's "evident conviction that he's doing God's will."

The Christian Century, similarly, devoted most of its March 8 issue to a barrage of war criticism. "Imperialism, American Style," was the title of the salvo by eminent sociologist Robert Bellah. "Americans may not have thought of the World Trade Center or the Pentagon as the symbolic headquarters of a world empire," he explained, "but the men with the box cutters certainly did, and so do numberless millions who cheered their terrifying exercise."

The Christian Century editors complained that Mr. Bush's actions, such as a hands-off attitude toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, give "tacit support" to the wrong religious perspective. They are "in line with end-times scenarios imagined by some conservative Christians and fictionalized in the 'Left Behind' series that has sold over 50 million volumes since 1995. Up to 40 percent of Americans believe that we are living in the last days, says historian Paul S. Boyer, and that history is racing toward an apocalyptic clash between the forces of good and evil. Millions of Americans believe that the Bible foretells regime change in Iraq, that God established Israel's boundaries millennia ago, and the United Nations is a forerunning of a satanic world order."

Holy Cow, Mr. Bush is caught in the cross fire of a religious civil war. These are the voices of liberal Protestantism, which once again finds itself out of step with the pews. The pope has the same problem, of course, in declaring the war "a crime against humanity." In March the Pew Research Center found that 62% of both Catholics and mainline Protestants backed the war, compared with 44% of non-believers and 77% of evangelicals.
In contrast to The Christian Century, commentary in Christianity Today, launched by Billy Graham, ran toward a sermon by Philip Jensen, dean of Saint Andrew's Anglican Cathedral in Sydney, Australia. To wit, "Apocalypse Again and Again: The Bible doesn't tell us when to go to war but how to live in a war-ridden world." And Marvin Olasky's World Magazine ran a headline "Onward Christian Soldiers," over a movie review noting that troops headed to Iraq previewed the Civil War epic "Gods and Generals."

Ardent religions are growing, while liberal ones are declining. The leading study, "Religious Congregations and Membership: 2000" by the Glenmary Research Center, found that the Mormon church grew 19.3% in the 1990s. Also gaining were evangelical churches; the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ up 18.6%, and the Assemblies of God, up 18.5%. The Roman Catholic Church, no doubt helped by burgeoning Hispanics, grew 16.2%. Meanwhile, the Presbyterian Church USA shrank 11.6%. Trailing the list was the United Church of Christ, which has rewritten its hymnal to eliminate masculine pronouns and other politically incorrect language. Over the decade it lost 14.8% of its membership.

On net, religious impulses are probably growing. September 11 persuaded others besides George Bush that evil is an active force in the world. The science of the Big Bang and DNA looks much more like the work of a creator than the cold world of Newtonian Laws and Darwinian evolution. And at least indirectly the horrors of the 20th century showed that the latter provides no moral compass.

The Scopes Monkey trial of 1925, the great defeat of the fundamentalists, has in particular come in for reassessment. Noting for example that the ACLU advertised for a plaintiff, a 2002 PBS documentary let the people of Dayton, Tenn. say that they were not the dolts depicted by the news dispatches of H. L. Mencken and the 1960 movie "Inherit the Wind." And in his new Mencken biography "The Skeptic," Terry Teachout points to the unlovely side of the philosophy animating his account: A disdain of democracy, for example, in favor of credo of Social Darwinism, applying survival of the fittest to human communities, and its corollary of eugenics, shortly later discredited by the Third Reich.

As for the Iraq war, what do the pope and liberal theologians make of the cheering crowds in Baghdad and Saddam's torture chambers? The president's success has confounded his critics. His decision, whatever role Divine Guidance played, clearly was what psychologists call inner-directed. His war cabinet meetings did not include people such as Karl Rove, Karen Hughes or Ari Fleischer. Somehow it's better, I suspect, for a president to talk to God than to talk to pollsters.

Mr. Bartley is editor emeritus of The Wall Street Journal. His column appears Mondays in the Journal and on OpinionJournal.com.
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Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 11:12 AM        Bush
I think this says it all

Quote:
"evident conviction that he's doing God's will."
I don't care what religion you are, but don't try to justify evil deeds by saying it is God's will. The war on Iraq does not need to be a holy war.
He sounds just like the terrorists when he says those things.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 11:26 AM       
I really don't see the point in reaffirming whether Dubbya is Christian or not. Calling the war a "religious crusade", in my humble opinion, is irrelevant as it seems both sides seem to be moving the point on the reason for the war at a whim. It kind of amounts to a "flavor of the week" thing to me ... whatever suits the purpose of their argument. The real reason will eventually reveal itself along with some of the same people crawling out of the woodwork to say "I told you so" and those who were wrong licking their wounds and waiting for their next opportunity. Oh well ... we shall see what we shall see. :/
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 11:26 AM       
exactly. i don't care what anyone says, if you don't think that muslim extremists aren't listening to his words and thinking to themselves "this is a war against islam" than you are insane.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 11:27 AM       
Exactly. People aren't bothered by the fact that he's a Christian, it's that he talks like he has God on speed dial and invokes the old Under God phrase to defend actions that a civilized man should begrudge, even though he goes through with it.

edit: this in response to Vibecrewangel's post.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 11:35 AM       
Can anyone find any passage in the Bible that actually endorses war? I'm not being argumentative, I really want to know. All the time I was in the army, I'd never met a chaplain that could show me anything both in sermon or in private counsel. Given my knowledge of Jesus, I wouldn't think he'd be a a big time proponent either as it basically amounts to killing God's creation, regardless of their religious affiliation.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 12:59 PM       
Haven't there been a lot of Christian presidents over the years?

Anyway, I think everyone's right. While there are certainly some people out there who just plain don't like the fact that he's christian, I think most people are pissed off with his smug arrogance that he feels he does God's will. And he's been making very deliberate inflammatory comments (such as throwing the word "crusade" around) that are designed to piss off a good portion of Muslims. Not only is that just not right, it's just not smart.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 03:13 PM       
Being religious has never stopped any idiot from contributing to war. From the “mid-evil” crusading assholes, to modern day fanatics like Hitler, Saddam, OR Bush (‘s)!

There seems to be little difference in anyone’s agenda what goes for involving GOD in any war The only difference between all these dictators is what language they are speaking!
Any asshole that ever wanted power, either threatened people with his power of armies and weapons and/ or using religion to back themselves up (and to their benefit God has yet not been known to say “NO” to anyone!).

In cases of war and religion mixed, we have always been told to fight: “against the “evils” that threaten our nation” or be told that: “God wanted me to do this thing, in his name…” (Oh Please!! )

Now, even the money is under revision as to whether or not we should state: “One nation under ONE god” !! WTF is that?! And with that, abusing and taking God’s name in vain as well!! What a bad joke! (http://cobwebpublishing.com/soapbox/undergod.html)

Yes, our president is a Christian man indeed!! He has killed approximately between 1878-2325 civilians during his last little “Crusade” to Iraq. (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) [Oh dear me…how stupid can I be? I forgot there is such a nice term for this: I think they called it: “Casualties of war.” ]

I have a REAL hard time forgiving someone for not “turning the other cheek” to an enemy from whom he only had something to gain from. But, with Bush, somehow we have ALL been forced to do just that!
Dear friends THAT is NOT good nor decent Christian behavior such as the bible has preached throughout decades! Nor, is it anything Jesus would have subscribed to!

It doesn't really bother me that he calls himself a Christian, but these days, there is is BIG difference between being a Christian and being a GOOD Christian! I don't think that little difference matters to Bush.

A friend of mine had this on her T-shirt: “What kind of bomb would Jesus drop?”
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 05:55 PM       
"Can anyone find any passage in the Bible that actually endorses war?"

Yeah, just about everywhere in the Old Testament. Starting in Geneis when the Jews returned from bondage in Egypt to Canaan, God instructed them to wage not only war, but a genocidal campaign, against all of the inhabitants. Now, to Christians, this is somewhat understandable as those inhabitants were Nehphalim, and therefore abhorrations to the natural order of things. I doubt you would understand though -Not being pompous, simply understanding the Christian perspective tends to accept what God does even when it defies explaination. Not something a modern, critical mind often finds acceptable.

Let me see if I can try and explain anyway though.

One has to understand God does not love the world, John 3:16 is not what most people believe it is. The word translated 'World' is the greek word 'kosmos.' It signifies something like an order, a system. What the verse is saying is that God loved the world that He created, the original system He put in place before the the introduction of Sin. What exists now, and has as long as human history, is like a twisted, darkened version of His work and He has no trouble destroying it. All at once, as with the Flood, or a little at a time, as with Sodom and Gomorrah.

So yeah, is Bush a Christian? Well, only God can judge that.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 06:06 PM       
I think a more appropriate question for Kelly to have asked (and quite possibly what he meant to ask) would have been "Is there any passage in the Bible where Jesus endorses war?"

Old Testament is all about death and destruction.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 06:20 PM       
..does it matter what religion he is...? he's still a stupid moron and an idiot...i don't think his religious convictions are involved in that...much...
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 06:21 PM       
It doesn't bother me that he's a Christian. It bothers me that he's a lunatic.
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 06:22 PM       
see? someone said he was a lunatic...explains it all...didn't you people notice that, or were you trying to hide it behind his religion?
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Old Apr 21st, 2003, 06:22 PM       
I would beg to differ there Proto. I used to think so too, but not anymore. Not for a few years now anyway, who knows, I could come full circle.

Jesus taught in parables, using stories to convey meanings, sometimes very deep meanings -but understanding was reserved for those who could pick up on innuendo. The OT is much the same, only those parables are historical accounts, and once you get a jist of the NT, you can almost see much of it to be foreshadowing. Some of it having already come to pass, other things yet distant.

The difference between the OT and NT is the difference between Judaism and Christianity. Judaism is about Justice, Christianity is about Mercy. They don't contradict one another, they complete each other. Like, here, you have a Bible I'm sure Proto, follow my reasoning for a moment.

Ezekial 3:1-3. Ezekial eats a book, the Book of the Damned, and he finds it sweet as honey to his lips right? The Book, contrast to the Book of Life which holds the names of all those who will be granted everlasting life, holds those who are sentenced to eternal damnation.
John, likewise, later eats the same book. Revelation 10:9. And at first he also finds it sweet, but then it turns bitter in his belly.

Does that make any sense? So yeah, I agree in as much as Christ wasn't a proponant of war on earth, but not in your take on the OT. It's all just information, raw data, that needs to be processed in order to have sense made of it. Reading the Bible without being a Christian is like reading hexidecimal display. Sure, its easy to understand superficially, but it lacks true depth.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 09:33 AM       
Vince; Having posted this article, have you know desire at all to defend it? Did you interest die the moment you pushed the 'submit' button?

I would have thought a man who studied to be a Priest for two years might have something to offer the conversation.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 09:44 AM       
My interest in this article is about the same size of the length of your dick, so yes, my interest in this article died off as soon as I hit send.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 09:44 AM       
I don't think so, Max. Those priestly types usually like sitting around for the whole debate and come in at the end and say, "HA!"

In regards to the old testament, a few of my friends and I got into a pretty lengthy e-mail war over Christianity (and why we didn't want our inboxes spammed with all the God crap). One of the people on the theist side stated quite matter-of-factly that "we don't follow everything in the Old Testament anymore."

I thought that was quite interesting, especially coming from a person who claimed to be as devout a Christian as they come, and thought I'd mention it here.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 10:01 AM       
If you want to discuss dick sizes I think you're at the wrong board and certainly in the wrong forum. I'm sure a quick google search will allow you to find all sorts of venues for like minded friends with whom to talk about male genetalia.

Thanks, though, for confirming my suspicion that the articles you post represent momentary spastic synaptic flashes and not any sort of coherent thouhgt process or worldview.

I think while it's possible you attended some sort of religous school and my even have sat in classes where others studied Catholascism, your mind was elsewhere. Possibly you were thinking of penises. I understand thats what drew a lot of our current preists to the church.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 10:10 AM       
I couldn't read your last post max because I was distracted by someone talking about how fucking lame someone must be to brag about working at a Museum.

And if you would quit jingling the coins you are busy coveting, Jewboy, I could hear myself think so I could write out a decent response.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 10:17 AM       
since when was the rule "you must defend every threat you create" made...? or was that just something that is supposed to be known...or maybe i missed something...
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 10:37 AM       
Don't hold your breath while waiting to hear yourself think.

Oh, oh, I'm sorry; Uh, lets see now, everybody thinks your job is dumb, Italian guy.

See? I'm making an effort to communicate with you in a mode you understand.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 10:42 AM       
Have we yet established what this idiot wop's job is?
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 10:44 AM       
Something to do with admission at a private school, but he won't say what exactly because we might not be wildly impressed by responsabilities like getting coffee and opening mail. Oh, oh, I'm sorry, sometimes they let him give prospective students tours.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 11:00 AM       
OOHHHHH... "wop". Real classy.

I don't drink coffee. And I am not a secretary. I do REAL work. At a REAL business. We have to make REAL money. Unlike a govt-supported museum.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 11:07 AM        LOL
Zeb -
Wop is no more "classy" then say oh.... Jew Boy.

Most museums are financially supported by donations not federal money. You know, donations those things you said people should give if they want to help people get off drugs.
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