Israel enters Lebanon

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Don't try to soft sell me the consequences of harboring murderous maniacs with the blood of thousands of civilians IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, to me. The truth is they don't care about Lebanon, nearly as much as they care about killing all Jews. Hell, all these groups and nations HATE EACH OTHER, but Pan-Arabism, and Pan-Islamism found that war against Jews can unite them all. Yeah, it's fucked that their human shields are paying the price, but it's even more fucked that nobody makes half as much of a fuss over the fact that Hamas and Hezzballah purposely use human shields to begin with. Less then 400 deaths in a week for a military strike of this size shows unprecedented accuracy. Israel has phoned ahead or sent warnings prior bomb airports and other populated zones.

But that's not the way the Lebanese populace tells it. They say that Hezbollah gets to keep their arms because Israel could wipe out the Lebanese army very quickly, but they cannot wipe out guerilla fighters. I guess we're going to see rather shortly if that is true or not. Current reports are conflicting as to how much damage has actually been done to Hezbollah, and Israel certainly isn't done attacking.

This thing about the warnings though... I only heard about that yesterday. To me, that is very heartening, except for the chronology of it is a little unclear. They gave civillians warnings to get out of town BEFORE they blew up all the bridges and gas stations?

I don't really think that's the case, else why did we have to send the marines in to get our citizens out? But maybe it is... the mainstream news media is not the most reliable way to find out exactly what happened and exactly when. By the time the facts get straight, the story is "old news".

Again, are you suggesting that Arabs hate Jews and spread institutionalized antisemitism asa justified response to Jewish provocations.

I'm only suggesting that if somebody blew up my parents' house, while they were in it, I'd want revenge and/or justice, and so would any normal human being.

What we know for certain is what hasn't worked...unilateral consentions, don't work. Negotiations with these groups, don't work. Prisoners trades, do not work. That stuff only reads as a victory to these people, and they will just keep on doing it, because well - it worked the first time. Any other suggestions? What has worked? Flexing their muscle. I'm sorry, it may not appeal to you, but it's a historical truth.

That's an opinion, and you calling it a fact does not make it so. If "flexing their muscle" as you put it is what works, then why is Israel still the focus of so much violence? Israel has been "flexing it's muscle" almost non-stop since the days where it referred to it's muscle as the Haganah. Sure it solves problems in the short-term, but in the long term does it not add more fuel to the fire? What can put out this fire? Precision military strikes and walls with machine guns? You seem to be saying the only thing that can do this is for Jews to stop being Jewish. The idea that negotiations and peace agreements cannot work is a ridiculously self-defeating attitude that just happens to be shared by enough people (Jewish and Arab, alike) to make it a self-fulfilling statement.

It is my opinion that violence is inherently self-perpetuating. Again, I'll state as clearly as I can, it's still years too soon to know the full ramifications of these events, but even if a cease-fire is negotiated, it is a legitimate concern that Israeli attack on Lebanon will generate more anti-Israeli sentiment in the region than it will serve to defeat. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you think that is no big deal.


Anyway, have a nice weekend! I'm going camping and won't be able to argue with ya for a few days.

[mburbank]

You aren't arguing with him. You are denying the truth. Plain and simple. It is beyond my understanding that he responds to you. You'd almost think there was a micron of doubt in him somehwere.

[Preechr]

He's "camping." He can't "hear" you.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

But that's not the way the Lebanese populace tells it.

You're going to hear varied opinions with the Lebanese, as there's no united populace. Check any Lebanese blogs, and it's skitzo city.

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

They say that Hezbollah gets to keep their arms because Israel could wipe out the Lebanese army very quickly, but they cannot wipe out guerilla fighters.

Eh? Israel is not at war with the Lebanese army. Now should that Army, which is half Shia, decide to fight alongside Hezzballah as they've threatened, then that's their choice. Israel is a temporary problem, so if their desire is really to fight for soveriegnty, then they picked the wrong side. If Lebanon can stand up against Israel, which they are threatening to do, then they sure as hell Hezzbalah.

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

This thing about the warnings though... I only heard about that yesterday. To me, that is very heartening, except for the chronology of it is a little unclear. They gave civillians warnings to get out of town BEFORE they blew up all the bridges and gas stations?

That's right. Israel's been doing that since the Irgun days bombing the King David Hotel. They dropped leaflets the first two days which said something like, if you're near Hezballah...run. Israel hit the airport several times, and the strikes on the first day were merely to the runway, not the terminals.

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

I don't really think that's the case, else why did we have to send the marines in to get our citizens out? But maybe it is...

It's easy to verify. Look into if you doubt it.
The US was the last to evacuate it's citizens. I'll also mention that the majority of those citizens were actually dual citizens, rather then Americans trapped abroad.

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

I'm only suggesting that if somebody blew up my parents' house, while they were in it, I'd want revenge and/or justice, and so would any normal human being.

Okay then use that reasoning to come to terms with why Israel is responding the way they are. Hizballah was not created as a reaction to any Israeli actions.

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

That's an opinion, and you calling it a fact does not make it so. If "flexing their muscle" as you put it is what works, then why is Israel still the focus of so much violence?

Then tell me when these "peace measures" have worked. If you look at the timeline the violence against Israel has always increased AFTER something like pulling out of Southern Lebanon, or Gaza. That is a fact, not an opinion. Israel has had it's hands tied for decades, ever since their last incursion into Lebanon, which was a mess for all involved.

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Israel has been "flexing it's muscle" almost non-stop since the days where it referred to it's muscle as the Haganah.

That type of rhetoric is best saved for the ANSWER rallies. It's not accurate. If you really believe Israel intetions are devious or at least questionable, and you really believe they haven't stopped flexing their muscle since the 30's....then well.... why has the Arab population increased? Why have the Palestinians obtained land for the first time in history? Why are there more terror groups, and more attacks on Israelis then EVER before? What's stopping Israel from that genocide and apparthaid they keep getting accused of?

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Sure it solves problems in the short-term, but in the long term does it not add more fuel to the fire? What can put out this fire? Precision military strikes and walls with machine guns?

Ask Egypt and Jordan.

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

You seem to be saying the only thing that can do this is for Jews to stop being Jewish. The idea that negotiations and peace agreements cannot work is a ridiculously self-defeating attitude that just happens to be shared by enough people (Jewish and Arab, alike) to make it a self-fulfilling statement.

Again, you're responding to me as if the issue is about land, or borders. It's not. It's about Jewish existance in the area. You can not negotiate with these fuckwads in hoods hanging from wires. A peace agreement with the Muslim Brotherhood and PLO spawned groups has NEVER meant anything. Ever. That's a sad truth...and if you're not aware of what Israel has done in the way of peace negotiations, then again, look into it.

People who hate Jews, or Christians or Sunni or Shia do so for irrational reasons. You're wondering why there isn't a rational solution? Well, that's why. If they wipe out the Jews, next it's going to be the Christians....who are dwindling int he region as it is...and once that's done, the big Sunni - Shia war would be next. It's easier for them to focus on the Jews though. The Holy War talk has been going on since before Israel's creation.

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

It's outright freakish how Israel and India got attacked, and yet Scru, you phrase it to sound like they're the aggressors causing trouble in line with korea flaunting long range missiles.

If you think I'm supporting either lebannon or israel your kidding yourself. there both on the same level in my book of I don't care. Israel has the right to defend its borders, but bombing and 1/8th of the population out of their homes, doesn't seem to be helping any in my short sighted logic. Niether are the rocket attacks by hezbollah that kill 2 arab kids, or the ambush of an Israeli armored unit, and the concurent rescue unit. or the bombing of an airport and/or anything that is moving. Pretty much the point I'm making is that I'm with Achimp on this one.

The reason I said India is pinning everything on pakistan, is because it haulted the uneasy peace talks that were going on, which is pretty much either one of those shitty governments had going for them.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

If you think I'm supporting either lebannon or israel your kidding yourself. there both on the same level in my book of I don't care. Israel has the right to defend its borders, but bombing and 1/8th of the population out of their homes, doesn't seem to be helping any in my short sighted logic. Niether are the rocket attacks by hezbollah that kill 2 arab kids, or the ambush of an Israeli armored unit, and the concurent rescue unit. or the bombing of an airport and/or anything that is moving. Pretty much the point I'm making is that I'm with Achimp on this one.

The reason I said India is pinning everything on pakistan, is because it haulted the uneasy peace talks that were going on, which is pretty much either one of those shitty governments had going for them.

India ought to be another thread alltogether. Everytime the disputed Cashmere region talks start coming somewhere some retard woman douses a train in gas and murders 200 people.

I think these terrorist actions make moderate islam look like inbred violent morons, which they are not. All they do is hurt their cause and further an untrue stereotype. Of course I could say the same about some Pentacostals and traditional christianity.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Courage the Cowardly Dog

India ought to be another thread alltogether. Everytime the disputed Cashmere region talks start coming somewhere some retard woman douses a train in gas and murders 200 people.

http://i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=22834

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

there both on the same level in my book of I don't care. .

You'd never know it from your comments. I hate that an Israeli bomb kills children, but I hate it even more that the international community (with an emphasis on the Muslim community) turns the other cheek to these terrorists using Hospitals and their Nurseries as their comand centers. They want you to be outraged when a child dies, and you should be - but the blame goes on the people who didn't follow the rules of war (they want a war right?) and avoid putting military outlets within civilian populations. I know, you said you don't care to make these distinctions, but your post didn't reflect your free to be you and me feelings towards the whole conflict.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by mburbank

You aren't arguing with him. You are denying the truth.

Israel proper is under attack. Central Israel have been living in bomb shelters for a week. It's not ambigious as to why.

This article is from 1999...

In a scathing speech to a rally of more than 1,000 supporters, Hizbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said peace deals between Arabs and Israel would not bring stability to the Middle East or legitimacy to the Jewish state.

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel," he told the crowd. "Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.

"Peace will not wipe out the memory of the massacres it has committed ... And on this last day of the century, I promise Israel that it will see more suicide attacks, for we will write our history with blood," Nasrallah declared.
http://www.unb.ca/web/bruns/9900/iss...ws/israel.html

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm watching the Syrian ambassador to the U.S. on the Mclaughlin Hour right now.

Apparently all violence in the Middle East would stop if Israel left all "occupied lands".

Syria. Occupied land.

Huh. Who knew? So simple.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

I'm watching the Syrian ambassador to the U.S. on the Mclaughlin Hour right now.

Apparently all violence in the Middle East would stop if Israel left all "occupied lands".

Syria. Occupied land.

Huh. Who knew? So simple.

Well When they first started saying this Israel thought they were reffering to the land from the 6 day war, Israel has since gave up all that and then some. Now it's clear they want ALL the land and all jews to leave the area.

Yep that would end the war, terrorism, and suicide bombings all right. Of course you could say the same thing about america warring with the indians and telling them to go back across the alaskan landbridge cause that's basicly what they are saying.

[Abcdxxxx]

The issue with 1967 borders was a smoke screen. There was never any peace between 1949-1967. Arafat created his PLF (PLO) prior to 1967. PA websites, and Palestinian textbooks have included all of Israel proper in their maps of Palestine for a reason. There are lots of quotes from Arafat admitting that the green line was a tactical stepping stone to their real goals which were obscured from the PLO's original charter in time for Oslo. The insistance on the Right of Return also makes their goals pretty obvious. When Israel celebrates Independence Day, Palestinians take a moment of silence for what they call Al Nakba, "The Catastrophe" in what has been compared to open mocking of the Holocaust. The day commemorates the creation of Israel in 1948. Only peacenikes look past all these facts. It's harder to keep that charade going noow that Israel has made an effort to return to it's 1967 borders, and the attacks are centered on within Israel's original 1948 soveriegn borders which were never under dispute. They want the destruction of Israel, and while it was always implied, now they're fully admitting it.

[Geggy]

Page 51-52, written in 2000

http://newamericancentury.org/Rebuil...asDefenses.pdf



And you wonder how us 9/11 "conspiracy kooks" predicted this would happen.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

I wouldn't count on a damn thing coming out of the G8, or the UN for that matter, God bless their hearts.

I think there is an argument to be had over the measures Israel is taking, however a lot of the people I hear raising that issue are the same knee-jerk, ignorant idiots who wait in the high grass for the right moment to attack Israel. Like last night, a talk radio host was talking about how Israel creates this kind of Arab reaction, and of course, they've been doing it "since a bunch of European Jews decided they were entitled to Arab land."

I think we need to try to get France involved in this, and some kind of diplomatic emergency envoy needs to take place. Israel needs to be in the room, Lebanon needs to be in the room, and perhaps even Syria.

Lebanon MUST disarm Hezbollah, and control their soutrhern borders. If they can't do this b/c of Syria, or iran, then Israel has every right to secure the Lebanese border and cut off transfer to Syria/Iran.

I would like to see Israel stand down a bit, but I don't think that can happen unless these other things can be guaranteed.

Lebanon's army, being cripplied by years of civil war with extremists doesn't have the muscle to fight back. Isn't obvious they aren't retaliating against Israel for a reason? they want Hezballah out too.

As for France they've never been much help. Hell I've seen pics of Jaque Chirac showing Saddam around a nuclear facility. France has to much to gain from a hezballah style government. That type of goup is their biggest trade partners.

Iran is a huge problem too. It's kinda funny that the missiles Israel blew up en route to Lebanon were manufactured in china, and after the US halted the sale of missiles from china to iran in the 90s, iran was gonna give them to hezballah :P Iran is all "kill them all" after all hezballah is a party in Iran too in fact syria and iran are it's main centers politicly.

We need another Jimmy Carter to convince these people Israel has a right to live.

[Geggy]

(07-21) 04:00 PDT Jerusalem -- Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.

In the six years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NG2QK396D1.DTL

The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...6,00050004.htm

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m...uring_soldiers

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

In a deliberated way, Tsahal sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aïta Al Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, making two prisoners.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

[KevinTheOmnivore]

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Geggy

unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.....When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly.

OMG! You mean one of the largest militaries in the world had a contingency plan if attacked!? What happened prior to a year ago to make them come up with this plan? Oh right, 3 soldiers were kidnapped.

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

Weird how a Bahraini paper can't distinguish between Hezaballah and Lebanese police. There's a difference, Geggy. They're not prisoners, either, they're hostages. Has the Red Cross been allowed to visit them? Is Hezzballah a recognized army? Do they follow the rules of war?

Anyway the provocation was the constant missile fire into Israel. The kidnappings are huge because they occured right after the Hamas abductions. You won't respond though. Retard.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Courage the Cowardly Dog

Lebanon's army, being cripplied by years of civil war with extremists doesn't have the muscle to fight back. Isn't obvious they aren't retaliating against Israel for a reason? they want Hezballah out too.

That was the common thinking before Lebanon threatened to defend their soveriegnty against an Israeli ground incursion. If they really wanted Hezaballah out they would be partnering with Israel. I believe most Lebanese want a free country though. Meaning free of Syria too.

Originally Posted by Courage the Cowardly Dog

We need another Jimmy Carter to convince these people Israel has a right to live.

Yikes maybe that was a joke? Although...Israel and Iran had all sorts of secret ties during the Carter years. What's really interesting is nobody has cut Israel's tap line yet. So whatever diplomacy is involved to get Israel their oil is still intact.

[derrida]

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

Either Isreali public opinion opposes risking military casualties, or, more likely, the Israeli military has fallen victim to the same "shock-and-awe" academic Air Force careerism that has plagued the US campaign in Iraq...

[Preechr]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

What's really interesting is nobody has cut Israel's tap line yet. So whatever diplomacy is involved to get Israel their oil is still intact.

I heard a rumor a few years ago that Israel was working with the Kurds, who I guess don't share the rest of the region's animosity toward Jews, to run a pipeline from there. I have no idea whether there's been enough time to finish such a project, but I've never seen anything about it in the media version of the war.

[Geggy]

Wasn't Hariri assassinated one year ago which led to syria military being pressured into withdrawing from lebanon? If so, good war tactics by the israelis, me thinks. Showed that Israel was thinking ahead of time. By the way I'm not too sure if hezbollah is what the west paint them to be. How do you know they were created in order to protect their homeland from the israeli soldiers? Why do you think it's wrong of them to capture the israeli soldiers who happened to be inside the border of lebanon at the time? They turned the captured soldiers into the lebanon police and demand the lebanon civilians, men, women, children, alike whom are being held on as hostages by israel to be released in exchanged for the soldiers, how is that a justification for israel dropping U$ manfactured bombs onto beirut? It seems clear to me that they're not just interested in rescuing their own men, but have something bigger planned. Oh right, I just remembered now that it's a waste of time arguing with someone who think it's antisemetic to speak out israel's foriegn policy, duh.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by derrida

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

You really have no clue as to how well armed and trained Hezbollah is, do you?

I love this argument, btw. It's the classic "let's not flat out say they shouldn't do anything, but throw them a bone" argument like calling the war on terror a "police matter."

Sending in commandos won't stop Hezbollah from transporting the soldiers into Syria and/or Iran.

And gee, what history lesson might teach us that simply sending "commandos" into Lebanon to rescue prisoners doesn't necessarily work?

[El Blanco]

Originally Posted by Preechr

I heard a rumor a few years ago that Israel was working with the Kurds, who I guess don't share the rest of the region's animosity toward Jews, to run a pipeline from there. I have no idea whether there's been enough time to finish such a project, but I've never seen anything about it in the media version of the war.

I've heard that the US brokered a deal between the House of Saud and Israel. We figured that our two biggest allies in the region shouldn't be ready to annihilate each other with the billions of dollars in gear we sent them.

The SA government publicly condemns the terrorist attacks and doesn't fund them (officially anyway) and the IDF doesn't turn Riyad into a smoking crater. And all the commerce that goes along with allied nations.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Geggy

Wasn't Hariri assassinated one year ago which led to syria military being pressured into withdrawing from lebanon? If so, good war tactics by the israelis, me thinks. Showed that Israel was thinking ahead of time. By the way I'm not too sure if hezbollah is what the west paint them to be. How do you know they were created in order to protect their homeland from the israeli soldiers? Why do you think it's wrong of them to capture the israeli soldiers who happened to be inside the border of lebanon at the time? They turned the captured soldiers into the lebanon police and demand the lebanon civilians, men, women, children, alike whom are being held on as hostages by israel to be released in exchanged for the soldiers, how is that a justification for israel dropping U$ manfactured bombs onto beirut? It seems clear to me that they're not just interested in rescuing their own men, but have something bigger planned. Oh right, I just remembered now that it's a waste of time arguing with someone who think it's antisemetic to speak out israel's foriegn policy, duh.

Seriously, you don't even deserve a fucking response here, so my suggestion is going to be that you do some research into the origin (start with the translation of their name), and stop being stupid.

Once you get those things down, get back to us.