daphne's and drumming's vegan thread

[Spectre X]

Someone from my vacation job said that they once had a girl work with them who was a vegan but used an entire bottle of castor oil every day.

I found this quite hilarious.

She also started crying when she found out that my coworker's family bred big rabbits to kill and eat for Christmas.

[Helm]

I do not drink alcohol, do not smoke or do drugs. For various reasons I try to live as free of addiction as I can. And good food is certainly an addiction, so I eat less and not based on what tastes good but what (I've been told) the human organism needs so as to work well. I do eat meat for high concentration on protein. I am mentioning this because I am going to try to explain why I am not a vegeterian and I do not want to come off as this guy who has made a whole ethical concept so as to defend his dear meat eating habits. I don't particularily like the taste of most meat. So I'm just saying, the ethics came first.

My main issue with the 'meat is murder' thing is the ethical leap of faith people make when they consider the sledgehammer to cow head scenario. Obviously a violent way to die, in human terms. Humen are sentient beings aware of their own mortality on an abstract level, and to violently end one's life is considered immoral by popular ethics. As I understand it, this happens because people instinctively know that pain is bad, and when they see violence they project themselves in the position of the one being hurt and so deduct that pain is wrong 'generally'. Many will argue a more complicated moral base for their beliefs, but from my experience, when you strip away the bulshit, the basic axiom of most morality stems from human pain, and the avoidace of it. I have issues with this line of thinking too, because my personal morality is not based around the instinctual fear of pain. But that's a different story and for the sake of the argument, let's say that I agree pain, for any sentient being is bad for said reasons.

But to the best of my (layman, obviously, but I've done my share of research) knowledge, the vast majority of animals have no demonstrated anything but the most basic biological memory and no signs of self-awareness. So no matter how gruesome a sledgehammer to the head might seem on a very primordial level (where as we said, pain is bad etc), I ethically see no reason to say the same for an animals. If they're not self-aware they're just biological mechanisms not unlike plants, and I have no problem with the utilizing of all the objects and such mechanisms earth offers for the substantial benefit of mankind.

Animals are not self aware. However, there's no question that animals feel pain. But can any of us quantify the feeling of pain sans self-awareness? For people, pain is inherently tied with the concept of self. Morality itself stems from the interaction of sentient beings, so we can not make any solid theories about the morality of inducing pain in a biological system. We have to move away from the 'first impression' that any act of violence induces and classify violence in terms of violence against what. If killing an animal is morally the same as dissasembling a computer for the further usage of it's parts, then I don't care how bad it makes me 'feel' watching said killing happen. I'll get over it.

[Daphne]

Originally Posted by davinxtk

You ladies are both aware that you can't wear normal shoes or eat many kinds of peanut butter, crackers, and junk foods, right?
If you want to fly the flag of "vegan" I'd better not catch you wearing shoe leather or eating anything with Gelatin (extract of boiled hooves) in it.

Honestly, are you still calling yourselves vegan?


(this isn't meant as an attack, just a question from a slightly omnivorous being)



I don't tend to eat plants unless they're an ingredient of something else.
My food eats plants. You eat what my food eats.
I should eat you. Rotisserie style.

It's not 'meant as an attack', but you end it saying you should eat us? You're a moron.

I haven't worn leather OR silk since I was a vegetarian LONG before I was a vegan. I don't wear wool, use film, use glue or eat honey, either. And I certainly don't eat gelatin. I also avoid refined sugar AND I read the ingredients on everything I buy to make sure there are no animals in them (including vitamin D3). I don't do anything half-assed and if you want to try to 'catch' me then feel free, because you won't.

It is however, impossible to be 100% cruelty free. If you want to be a dick about it, then vegans can't ride bikes or walk on concrete or eat ANYTHING because a bug or small animal might have died to make it (i.e. in the harvest of grains). However, I do the best I can which is more than most people do and I feel good about myself. I also, unlike you don't push my choices in everyone's fucking face.

You're the only one here waving a flag, and it's got a huge asshole on it.

[Daphne]

Ok upon having read that David was joking in his post, I take the asshole remark back and I'm sorry I was bitchy

heh heh, touchy vegan bitch!

[Carnivore]

I hate the term cruelty-free with a passion. Life isn't cruelty-free.

[camacazio]

I like Carnivore posting in the Vegan thread. It's almost poetic.

[hawaiian mage]

In India there's a religious group known as Jainism. They wear scarfs around their mouths at all time so as not to inhale anything, and they carry brooms around with them and constantly sweep away in front of them so as not to step on anything. They also do not eat meat, fish, or even vegitables when harvesting them would kill the plant. Meaning they only eat fruits and harvest leaves from plants sparingly.

They feel that there is no god and everyone is responsible for their own well being. The only way to end the perpetual circle of life and death is to reject it, no longer be one with it. And so they kill nothing in their entire lives. Nothing.

Beat THAT.

(You could also live a life of killing nothing by eating artifical foods made from modified petroleum. Like laffy taffy. Or mountain dew.)

[kellychaos]

Being self-aware made us believe we are above the other animals who kill animals, although we are animals ourselves. It also convinced us that we are intelligent enough to find means to nourish ourselves without killing other animals, although our path of evolution has molded us into omnivores. Damnedest thing, that conscience.

[Daphne]

It's not a competition, you anus, I don't have to 'beat' anything.

Originally Posted by Carnivore

I hate the term cruelty-free with a passion. Life isn't cruelty-free.

Which is why I said it's impossible to be cruelty-free.

I get the feeling that most of you just see the word 'vegan' and get all upitty and defensive and rude, without reading anything anyone says.

[ernasty10050]

yeah, and in

[kellychaos]

If your belief is so strong that you've basically changed your whole lifestyle around it, I doubt that anyone here is going to talk you out of your decision by what they perceive as a logical argument or clever turn of phrase. This is merely a discussion wherein people express their views and not a particularly enjoyable one if people choose to vent their feelings by attacking others such as yourself. Let's try to stay constructive, polite and intelligent.

[hawaiian mage]

Hey, I'm on your side!

[davinxtk]

I'm still hungry, by the way.

[Daphne]

haha, I know but saying 'beat that' didn't make you come off that way.
It's something I hate about vegans/vegetarians when they are like 'well, I don't even have PETS so I'm better than YOU' or if they do and (shudder) make their animals vegan as well (something I am AGAINST 100%). The whole 'beat that' attitude, 'vegan-er than thow' bullshit.

And low and behold, Kelly made an excellent, intelligent post! If nothing else, that's a wonderful thing to come out of all of this.

[hawaiian mage]

I only said it becuase you pretty much CAN'T beat that.

Unless you lived in a bubble. I suppose fighting off invading bacteria counts as killing, too. Gotta keep them out of your body so you don't kill them in self defense.

[Helm]

if you're trying to say that even the strictest vegan eventually makes the choice to kill something when it's too damn inconvinient not too, yes, we get it.

[Skulhedface]

I don't deny vegetarians their right to whatever they want to eat, so a nonconfrontational vegetarian/vegan who won't chastise me for eating meat is OK by me.

My argument on the previous page (somethign must die for you not to) wasn't directed to anybody, per se, just a way to point out that "meat is murder", but anything you eat was basically murdered (though it may be less gruesome to some people because plants don't convey a visible means of pain). All I want is a little consistency. Nobody's perfect, but I demand my militants to be non-hypocritical.

PS Though parts of this are directly pulled from her post and responded to, I like Hobo Renee. I'm not trying to start a fight, just a little intellectual discussion.

[nothing4buddha]

im the bestest vegan of all i photosynthesize

[FS]

Photon-thief.

[Skulhedface]

Then you die, someone eats you, and the circle goes on.

I could have dropped the "then you die" part, but then it'd be a Loveline post.

[nothing4buddha]

oh lol good one

[Daphne]

Originally Posted by Skulhedface

Nobody's perfect, but I demand my militants to be non-hypocritical.

Lucky for you, no one here is militant.

[Skulhedface]

I know. Thank you Daphne

[DeadKennedys]

I agree with Helm. I also think that it's wrong to kill animals if you're not going to eat them, because that's just wasting. I also think it's wrong to torture animals.

[Helm]

oh shit I better turn vegeterian right now