Bye-Bye Mr. Davis

[mburbank]

Wow. The more I read this debate the happier I am recalls are free. I'm also really glad that a special election with about twenty candidates could never, never lead to a sticky multiple recount decision, and multiply contested results. Oh, well. At least the recounts would be free.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

kevin - why don't you spare people the flame war and stop acting like a juvenile.

Oh, I beg your pardon, you must have me mistaken. There's no "flame war" here, I sincerely don't like you.

talk about something you know for a change. you're just an op-ed parrot spouting off a bunch of polls.

Christ, I hate to act like you and pull out my "credentials," but I am a student of American politics, I have taken part in and contributed to ballot initiative campaigns, and I'm fairly knowledeable on comparative electoral systems, and how they function. So, why don't you fuck off and bite me you pretentious half-wit??? (Was that "flaming" enough for you??)

"Why else should he step down, a proposed recall put forward by 5% of the population?"

davis only won the election by 5% to begin with. he's lost the confidence of his state and the ability to get anything done.

Ok, ok, so here's the meat of the discussion. It's NOT the voter fraud that most outrages you (a noble gripe), but rather, it's the fact that he's a bad governor and you would like him beheaded?? So again, I ask you, since he did win the election as you just pointed out, why do YOU think it's fair or democratic that a disgruntled moral crusader such as yourself could self-finance a recall of a governor, one in which takes FIVE % (again, FIVE PERCENT) to get on the ballot???

And back to my other question: Is the solution more preferable than the problem???

you don't even realize how stupid you sound creating this scenario of people being duped by the big bad clip board carrying republicans.

Another question: Would the recall have ever gotten off the ground without Issa's financing of it? I mean, according to you, this is a truly grassroots, populistic movement we have here. EVERYBODY in Cali would dispose of this guy now if they could, right? WOULD the recall have happened? Better yet, if Republicans like Issa hadn't planted the seed and mobilized the action, would a swell of Californians demanded it anyway??? I think not, so fuck off trying to paint this as conspiracy theory. Again, I have enough experience in these kind of activities to know how they work, so perhaps it's YOU who should calm the "op-ed" rhetoric.

california has the largest deficit of any state ever! a lot of people hold him responsible specifically. to understand why you'd have to understand how davis handled specific issues. you'd have to talk to some of the hardcore dems that turned their back on him. you'd have to follow the govenor on local issues that aren't making national news.

New York State is going through its largest deficit since the Great Depression. Governor Pataki had resounding support from most unions in the state, whom he turned around after the election and firmly stabbed in the back. Many of the folks who endorsed him, such as UNITE and SEIU, are now calling for his head. I bet a lot of them would like to get rid of Pataki now as well. But they endorsed him, and they voted for him. These are the consequences of democracy.

I see the recall option as a BAD one, but as I've already told you, I'm not entirely opposed to it. What I am opposed to is the alternative, which is no better, if not worse.

another thing - it's dumb to keep saying only 1 million support a recall because that was all the signatures they needed. plenty more would have signed.

Polls don't indicate this, and all those who voted for Davis don't indicate this. Voters are fickle, and change with the winds. Things are bad now, and the first guy on a failing baseball team to go is the manager. The California Republicans have used this current discontent as a chance at a power grab, one that might backfire in their faces, but oh well.

I'm glad you can speak for all the voters of California, I forgot, you're an "expert."

Originally Posted by GAsux

Maybe I'm missing the point. I see what you're getting at Kev with regards to the recall process setting up the potential for political power plays, but whether California voters opt to rid themselves of Gray Davis now for a shitty alternative or wait three more years for an equally shitty alternative, either way doesn't it ultimately reflect the will of the people?

Sorry if I have little faith in the people, but it comes from several years of campaigning and signature gathering. 5% of the people doesn't seem very reflective of anything to me. Perhaps ABC is right, perhaps many more would've signed the petitions (it frankly isn't the kind of thing we can do accurate research on, b/c I'm sure the petitioners aren't marking every 'no' they get, and I'm equally certain that there's nobody out there gather signatures for a "no recall" campaign :/).

And if you wait three years, you will get a more narrow stock of choices, probably more capable ones. You'll have more time to study them, find out where they stand on issues, and then make an educated vote. This will not be the case by October 5th, with a huge ballot.

If people are being duped into this recall election as a result of a simplistic Republican power grab, won't it be reflected in their vote when they vote to keep Davis?

Well, that'd mean voting against the recall, since they can't obviously vote for him as a candidate. It's tough to tell who will get energized by this special election. Some think it will mobilize angry Dems to go out and vote down the recall. But if Davis' popularity is as poor as you say it is, it's more likely that anybody who goes to vote will be voting against Davis as opposed to voting for a competent governor.

Maybe you're right. Maybe things won't be better after a recall election. Maybe Davis will be replaced by another incompetent shit bag. But maybe not. If Davis stays, the people of the state ALREADY know what they have to look forward to for the next three years. At least a recall provides the HOPE of some kind of improvement.

Or maybe the threat of a recall forces Davis to stop being a shit bag? Davis is the definition of a spineless, self-interested politician. He has his own image to protect here, and he's going to do whatever he can to preserve it, me thinks.

Either way, I'm not even saying I'm opposed to the recall. What I am saying.....(you fill in the blanks).

Originally Posted by mburbank

Wow. The more I read this debate the happier I am recalls are free. I'm also really glad that a special election with about twenty candidates could never, never lead to a sticky multiple recount decision, and multiply contested results. Oh, well. At least the recounts would be free.

I get your joke Max, but it's even more of a joke than that. As of yesterday, 123 candidates have filed papers to run. The deadline is August 9th.

[mburbank]

What are the rules of this re-election? How much of a clear majority does the winner have to have? If there is no clear majority (and the larger the candidate pool the greater the statistical chance that there will be no clear winner.) What happens procedurally if the election does not yield clear majority?

Apart from my thinking the whole idea of recall simply for being bad at your job is highly undemocratic and is just asking for trouble, what are the safeguards against this recall becoming a hideosu lengthy costly quagmire?

[kellychaos]

Trivia Note: Reagan was a democrat when he was governor of California which, with party platforms evolving all the time, is irrelevant. Looking back, what passed for democrat at the turn of the 19th century you'd swear was instead republican if you based your guess solely on the party platform without seeing the label.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kelly: Excellent point, but count on it falling on deaf ears with the likes of Abcdxxxx....

Max: To my understanding, the winner will be the one who ends with a somple plurality of all the votes. I don't know that any kind of run-off is being proposed should nobody get the majority (a majority is nearly impossible with so many candidates).

This is why I think doing it as an Instant Runoff would be preferable, because voters could rank all of the candidates, and the most likely scenario would be that the guy who everybody tended to rank either 2nd or 3rd would probably win.

[mburbank]

Okay, I feel much, much better about this whole recall deal.

I just read on Reuters that Larry Flynt is 'tossing' his 'hat' into the ring.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by kellychaos

Trivia Note: Reagan was a democrat when he was governor of California which, with party platforms evolving all the time, is irrelevant. Looking back, what passed for democrat at the turn of the 19th century you'd swear was instead republican if you based your guess solely on the party platform without seeing the label.

Trivia Note: The reverse equation could be said of Dianne Feinstien who started as a Republican.

California isn't always prone to voting in liberal candidates that reflect the states reputation. That was my point.

When did it become a bad thing to have an open system where candidates could come out of nowhere? The people bitching about this prospect are the same people who complain about a two party system that prohibits outsider candidates from getting on the ballots and having much of a shot. Oh now it's gonna clog the system!?

Kevin - your academia brain is so clogged it's barely worth responding to you. suffice to say californians have some diverse reasons for supporting a recall. decades of corruption at the hands of both parties (that far outweighs any comparison to ny state ) has a lot more to do with it then simply supporting the republican party. california has had a 20 year fight to get term limits and accountability for it's officials. that along with voter fraud issues and a dislike for sitting in the dark has pushed a lot of tax paying residents to explore some options. within the system that existed, not one created for their whims. you can sit around jerking off to your text books crying about how recalls and impeachments are a disgrace to the system all you want.... it's nice to see the people of california empowered for a change. even if as you claim, it's only 5% of them.

[VinceZeb]

It's amazing that people are bitching and moaning about this recount. Everyone fumes about recounts and impeachments and how they want to change the system, some people actually put their chips on the table and do it, and then people whine about how tough and complicated it may get.

Well, thats just it: Life is difficult, nothing is for free and hard work will reap rewards, which in this case is a change of government. America's great, huh?

In a 7th-seal kind of way, I'd love to see Michael Savage voted to be the governor of California. But even I'm not stupid enough to believe he would win.

[mburbank]

See, this is why I argued against installing a doggie door on I-mockery.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

The people bitching about this prospect are the same people who complain about a two party system that prohibits outsider candidates from getting on the ballots and having much of a shot. Oh now it's gonna clog the system!?

Shut up. Ballot access has little to do with a ballot access that involves having enough dough to get on. Ballot access has little yo do with three months to campaign, which as I have already stated, will give the candidate with the most media exposure (ie, CASH) the ability to have an advantage. Thois has little to do with ballot access, you fucking moron.

Kevin - your academia brain is so clogged it's barely worth responding to you.

Blah, blah, blah....try responding to my points and answering my questions rather than being evasive and acting like an internet tough guy.

suffice to say californians have some diverse reasons for supporting a recall. decades of corruption at the hands of both parties (that far outweighs any comparison to ny state ) has a lot more to do with it then simply supporting the republican party.

Name some while you're at it. And what does a "historical precedent of corruption" have to do with recalling Gray David? Does it exceed the corruption of Tammany Hall? What about the Democratic Machine that ran Albany's capital for most of the 20th Century?? Heck, what about the system we have RIGHT NOW with the "three men in a room" solution to legislative problems? I know you'd like to envision yourself as a special little cloud in the universe of political importance, but it just isn't the case.

Furthermore, I never said it was support for the Republicans that motivated this. Try reading my posts over again.

california has had a 20 year fight to get term limits and accountability for it's officials. that along with voter fraud issues and a dislike for sitting in the dark has pushed a lot of tax paying residents to explore some options. within the system that existed, not one created for their whims.

BOOHOO! BOOHOO! California is so naughty and sad!!

Again, get over yourself. You aren't the only state with problems, and you've yet to justify the recall, and more importantly, the SOLUTION it poses....

you can sit around jerking off to your text books crying about how recalls and impeachments are a disgrace to the system all you want....

HA HA! I GET IT! I'M A COLLEGE STUDENT! FUNNY FUNNY!!

Look, bottom line is I understand this shit more than you do. You can whine and bitch about "empowering" the people of California, but the fact remains that your solution bites.

it's nice to see the people of california empowered for a change. even if as you claim, it's only 5% of them.

Who needs 5%? You clearly speak for them as a whole anyway, they should just go on vacation....

Try responding to some points, rather than wasting my damn time...

Vince--

Good to have ya back, buddy!! :winkwink

[Abcdxxxx]

Kevin - Whimper away. I'll be voting. You can go cry about it.

[mburbank]

EXCELLENT POINT, SIR! MY OPINION HAS SUDDENLY BEEN SWAYED BY THE ELEGANCE OF YOUR RHETORIC!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm delighted to hear that you'll be doing your civic duty ABC, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, and the election in October is a mistake.

[Abcdxxxx]

you're pretty black and white about this gray davis issue.

[VinceZeb]

They are black and white about the issue because a tax-and-spend liberal idiot is the one being put to the chopping block.

They love the Consitution and the rule of law until it works against someone they like.

[mburbank]

Is it work to be as stupid as you are, or do you just sort of relax into it?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

you're pretty black and white about this gray davis issue.

I'm not at all, in fact it's you who could care less about the consequences of recalling the man. I've even said I'd agree with the recall were it done IRV style. It's in fact you who show know flexibility, nor any common sense, on this whole matter.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

They are black and white about the issue because a tax-and-spend liberal idiot is the one being put to the chopping block.

This is untrue. I have no sympathy for Gray Davis, and if it were the other way around I'd be just as bothered by the process.

They love the Consitution and the rule of law until it works against someone they like.

This is like fucking American politics 101. You certainly haven't gotten any brighter during your hiatus.....

[imported_Hollycaust]

Listen, once I pull some strings, Larry Flynt will be in office. Good Day!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

This is the most recently updated list of candidates at www.politics1.com:

John Birke (D) - Attorney & '96 State Sen. Nominee
Audie Bock (D) - Ex-State Assemblywoman, Teacher & '02 Congressional Candidate
Daniel Brookman (D) - Attorney
Art Brown (D) - Filmmaker
William Carlisle (D) - Attorney
Jeremy Chapman (D) - Cigarette Store Chain VP & Cigarette Tax Repeal Activist
Al Checchi (D) - Ex-United Airlines President & '98 Candidate
Gary Condit (D) - Ex-Congressman & Ex-State Assemblyman
Andrew Davis (D)
Noam Dromi (D) - Branded Entertainment Producer & Film Writer
Hatosha Drumgoole (D)
Fredrick "Rick" Engen (D)
Jesus Escamilla (D) - Senior Utilities Engineer Specialist
Dan Feinstein (D)
Brian Flemming (D) - Writer & Director
Dean Florez (D) - State Sen., Ex-State Assemblyman & Businessman
Larry Flynt (D) - Pornography Magazine Publisher & Casino Owner
Jimmy James Fong (D)
Lorraine "Abner Zurd" Fontanes (D) - Filmmaker
Jose "Pepe" Gomez (D)
Isaac Gorbaty (D)
Joe Guzzardi (D) - Audlt Education Instructor, Newspaper Columnist & Anti-Immigration Activist
Thomas Hall (D)
Marcus Hough (D) - Teacher
Steven Ireland (D)
Tamila Jensen (D) - Attorney
David Johnson (D) - Non-Profit Group Organizer
Alan Kaye (D)
D.E. Kessinger (D)
Kelly Kimball (D)
Matt Lemcke (D)
Gary Leonard (D)
Frank "Mac" Macaluso (D) - Physician & Businessman
Steven Malone (D)
Paul Mariano (D) - Assistant Public Defender & USAF Veteran
John Mortensen (D) - Self-Employed Businessman
David Noel (D)
William John Olson (D)
Georgy Russell (D) - Computer Programmer
Mark Shirilau (D) - Electric Power Systems Engineer & Businessman
William Vaughn (D) - Moraga Town Councilman
Lee Zion (D) - Journalist & Navy Veteran
Danney Ball (R) - Country Music Singer & Frequent Candidate
John Beard (R) - Printing Company Owner
Matt Brady (R)
Fred Brinkley (R)
Milton Brock (R)
Doug "Logan Darrow" Clements (R) - TV Show Producer & Ex-Magazine Publisher
Bob Dole (R)
Ted Dougherty (R)
Elton Gallegly (R) - Congressman & Ex-Simi Valley Mayor
Leigh Greenberg (R)
Hanna "John" Hajjar (R) - Artist
Jim Hoffman (R)
Mike Huber (R)
Mike Huffington (R) - Ex-Congressman, Oil Executive & '94 US Senate Nominee
Darrell Issa (R) - Congressman & Businessman
S. Issa (R)
Michael Jackson (R)
John Keusseyan (R)
Asimo Sondra Lawlor (R)
Robert Lippert (R)
Brian Lister (R)
Tom McClintock (R) - State Sen., Ex-Assembly Republican Whip & '94 State Controller Nominee
Keith Richman (R) - State Assemblyman
Richard Riordan (R) - Ex-Los Angeles Mayor, Retired Businessman & '02 Candidate
Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) - Movie Actor
Bill Simon Jr. (R) - Investment Banker, Charity Director, Attorney & '02 Nominee
Roger Willoughby (R) - Retiree & Frequent Candidate
Anthony Wayne Ford (AIP)
Ron Gulke (AIP) - Electrical Contractor, Farmer, '74 Congressional Candidate & '02 Nominee
Diane Templin (AIP) - Attorney, Anti-Gay Activist & Frequent Candidate
Peter Camejo (Green) - Investment Company Founder, '76 SWP Presidential Nominee & '02 Nominee
Jack Hickey (Libertarian) - Research Scientist, Sequoia Health Care District Commissioner & Navy Veteran
Dale Ogden (Libertarian) - Actuarial Consultant & Frequent Candidate
Ned Roscoe (Libertarian) - Cigarette Store Chain President & Cigarette Tax Repeal Activist
Lee Chauser (PFP) - Teacher
Jan Tucker (PFP) - Private Investigator & Frequent Candidate
C.T. Weber (PFP) - State Employee, Union Activist, Ex-State Party Chair & '98 State Controller Nominee
Angelyne (Independent) - Entertainer & Billboard Self-Promoter
Austin Alexander (Independent)
Mohammad Arif (Independent) - Website Publisher
Tom Benigno (Independent) - Retired Farmer, Ex-Grocery Store Owner & Frequent Candidate
Jerry Brown (Independent) - Oakland Mayor, Ex-Governor, Ex-State Democratic Chairman & Attorney
John Burton (Independent) - Attorney
Mary Carey (Independent) - Porn Movie Actress
Christy Cassel (Independent)
Dennis Conn (Independent) - Retiree, Community Activist & Frequent Candidate
Ron Friedman (Independent) - Radiologist
Gallagher (Independent) - Comic Performer
Leo Gallagher (Independent)
Jason Gastrich (Independent) - Baptist Minister & Doctoral Student
Sara Ann Hanlon (Independent)
Ted Hayes Jr. (Independent) - Homeless Activist & Frequent Candidate
Michael Hirt (Independent)
Arianna Huffington (Independent) - Columnist, Author, TV Pundit & Ex-Republican
Travis Kalanick (Independent) - Internet Technology Executive
Tovy Kamine (Independent)
Trek Thunder Kelly (Independent)
Philip "Jon" Kok (Independent)
Chuck Kovacic (Independent)
James Kurka (Independent)
Tim Lanzilotta (Independent)
Shu Yih Liu (Independent)
Ben Lofstedt (Independent)
Ed Manderfield (Independent) - Computer Consultant
Jack Meeks (Independent) - Retired Teacher & Nevada County School Board Member
Jerry Morissette (Independent) - Interstate Rest Stop Caretaker & Navy Veteran
Bill Murray (Independent)
William Pratt (Independent) - Recent High School Graduate
Michael Savage (Independent) - Radio Talk Show Host & Author
Brian Tracy (Independent) - Motivational Speaker & Consultant
Michael Wozniak (Independent) - Private Investigator & Retired Police Officer
Steve Young (Independent)

[mburbank]

Anyone know how they're doing the actual ballots? How many pages? Alphabetical? By Party?

In paper alone this is going to end up costing more than estimated.

If this is a simple Plurality, does anyone want to start a 'futures market' in number of lawsuits? Number of recounts? How about a tri fecta and pick the highest court any of the lawsuits makes it to?

[Zebra 3]

- Don't forget boys and girls that it's tonight on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno that Ah-nuld will announce if he'll be a candidate for Governor of California. It's seems that the news was already leaked a few days ago, and he along with his family have decided not to enter politics, and can you really blame him.

[Abcdxxxx]

Kevin "I'm not at all, in fact it's you who could care less about the consequences of recalling the man. I've even said I'd agree with the recall were it done IRV style. It's in fact you who show know flexibility, nor any common sense, on this whole matter. "

Jeez kid, you said this is "wrong" with a clear cut judgement of the situation. Black and white. When did I say it's right? I understand and agree with it, and I can argue for those who support it..... but that doesn't mean I signed the fucking thing. I didn't. I can see the downsides of this thing, but I am excited about the possible upsides.... like a return of Governor Moonbeam, or a Larry Flynt world where everything is legal again like in the olden west days. So you can stamp your feet like a little baby and talk about how wrong it is. I just find it interesting that it's okay to talk domestic politics in such black and white terms, but not okay to discuss international issues with the same distinct view point. You wouldn't know flexible if you were reading a plastikman comic,

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Jeez kid, you said this is "wrong" with a clear cut judgement of the situation. Black and white.

Jeez shithead, when have you actually disputed my arguments against it? When you list the positives to a bad alternative, you can call me "black and white." Until then, pretentious remarks like calling me kid will simply reinforce the the obvious point that you're in fact clueless.

When did I say it's right? I understand and agree with it, and I can argue for those who support it..... but that doesn't mean I signed the fucking thing. I didn't. I can see the downsides of this thing, but I am excited about the possible upsides.... like a return of Governor Moonbeam, or a Larry Flynt world where everything is legal again like in the olden west days.

HA HA HA!!! ABC ISN'T A SOULLESS TWIT! HE HAS HUMOR! HE ISN'T AN ANDROID!!

Fact is, you would make Davis walk the plank if that was the alternative presented. You're excited. You love it. You're a happy little boy.

The "upsides" are what, by the way?? The Terminator or Mike Savage as governor....?

So you can stamp your feet like a little baby and talk about how wrong it is. I just find it interesting that it's okay to talk domestic politics in such black and white terms, but not okay to discuss international issues with the same distinct view point. You wouldn't know flexible if you were reading a plastikman comic,

THANKS DAD! Hey, when you prove how being critical of a recall that's the political joke of the year shows a lack of flexibility, get back to me. I've supported changing the election to make it more fair, whereas you've supported, well, nothing other than the recall. Maybe a mob with torches would be your next prefered option.

Hey, watch your feet, your sweeping generalizations are gonna take us all out, sport. Try again.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I take it all back, this recall sounds great. Gary Coleman has entered the race.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...idate.coleman/

[mburbank]

I'm also changing my mind. This recall including actors succsesful, has been, never been and pornographic has reached the level of art.

And unlike some of you, I have ALWAYS favored publicly funded art.