Isreali soldiers board Ship to Gaza flotilla and kill plenty

[Blasted Child]

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/me...ex.html?hpt=C1

Everything that concerns the Israel/Palestine conflict is highly controversial, and naturally this incident has made people on both sides employ their usual set of rethorics.

I acknowledge that there are two sides of the coin here, but one important fact is that Israeli soldiers bordered the vessels on international waters, which is naturally beyond their jurisdiction. If they faced resistance because of this act, they're not really entitled to complain. And as they ended up killing up to ten passengers, whatever mitigating circumstances they can bring up are pretty moot in the big picture.

[Colonel Flagg]

What I find most intriguing is the polarization of opinions pitting the "Israel is within her rights" camp with "Israel killed 9 (or 10?) innocent civilians" camp. There is ALWAYS a grey area, or to paraphrase above "the third side of the coin" (the edge?).

There is fault on BOTH SIDES and until agreement can be met on this front, I belive there will be no progress.

[Dimnos]

Israel is know for sending agents into other countries to assassinate key people. Knocking off a handful of guys out in international waters actually seams kind of tame for them. I hope they keep kicking ass.

[The Leader]

Israel can do whatever it wants because the United States will always continue to back them up financially and militarily. :O

[Blasted Child]

I agree that in the conflict between the Isreali government and Hamas, there is a huge grey area - i.e. both parties are to blame and Hamas is far from innocent. I honestly have no clue how that conflict will ever resolve.

But in the case with this aid flotilla I'm less inclined to point fingers at the volonteers. So what if they kept some slingshots and clubs on board? They were on international waters, they should be free to defend themselves if they suddenly get boarded by armed forces.
And besides, most of the passengers weren't Turkish bullies - a great deal were ordinary European charity workers, even families, and the main objective with the operation was after all to supply Gaza with food and medicine.

Gaza is in dire need of supplies, and Israel is both strict and highly random when it comes to what goods they may actually receive - sometimes wood is forbidden, sometimes pasta.

I think it's important to once again stress that the ships were not trespassing on Isreali territory. They consider the blockade unlawful, and therefor do not respect it. Israel for some reasons consider it their right to not only block a certain strip of foreign land from outside help, but to control the entire body of water outside it and use military force to board ships and detain their passengers.

This is extra unfortunate because it will only make Hamas less inclined to work on the peace process. With all the negative publicity Israel is getting due to this, Palestinian extremists suddenly got a lot more leeway.

[The Leader]

Israel claims that a couple pistols were taken from soldiers after they repelled onto a ship from a helicopter. The firearms were then used on the soldiers causing the firefight to erupt. It weren't no slingshots.

[The Leader]

Originally Posted by Associated Press

Israeli commandos rappelled on ropes from a helicopter and army videos showed them being attacked by angry activists with metal rods and one soldier being thrown off the ship. Others jumped overboard to escape the angry mob. Israeli authorities said they were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers. The soldiers then opened fire, killing nine.

I'd shoot innocent people too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100601/...l_palestinians

[Blasted Child]

Ok, fair enough. I'm really disappointed that the passengers used violence as a response to the boarding.
But it's still quite interesting...this whole scenario could very well fall back on one of the most honoured and protected american principles - namely the right to protect yourself against trespassing, at virtually any cost.

If this had been another situation, let's say an american non-military vessel on its way to, let's say the Congo, and the ship was suddenly boarded by Angolan coastguard (ok I'm just throwing out stuff here, don't point out if it's unlikely or whatever) noone in their right mind, especially not Americans, would consider it strange or unappropriate or unlawful if the American charity workers used whatever weapons they could find to protect themselves.

[The Leader]

Yes, because they would be American aid workers being accosted by a bunch of black people. And America can do no wrong. Ever. Never ever ever because America is awesomer than everyone else.

The soldiers should not be blamed for opening fire, which seems to be what everyone is so focused on. The aid workers are to blame for trying to kill the soldiers, but what it comes down to, as you wrote before, is that this "raid" was supposedly conducted in international waters where no one has jurisdiction and where the aid ships would not be violating any sort of blockade. That and an amount of force was deployed that didn't need to be. It probably just resulted from some bureaucratic mistake in some Israeli Defense Forces office building. Israel will get a swat across the fanny and be sent on their merry way and a single tear will roll down Coolie's cheek as our children's water continues to be fluoridated by the Free Masons.

[Dimnos]

The deference there is that Angola, or whatever podunk African country, is a third world country no one gives a fuck about. Israel on the other hand is a major power whos neighbors have sworn to wipe off the face of the earth. Their neighbors have repeatedly kidnapped and/or killed citizens. They even have rockets fired into their country somewhat regularly. You can see why they would be a little more defensive about their borders. When the Israelis board a ship like they they probably dont go in shooting. They probably just secure the ship then search it. Angolans on the other hand would probably come running on board with axes and rocks or whatever weapons they have waving overhead screaming.

[Blasted Child]

ok guys, thanks for your answers!

[Colonel Flagg]

Originally Posted by Blasted Child

I'm really disappointed that the passengers used violence as a response to the boarding.

Exactly.

What makes me wonder is that the aid workers knew from past experience that there was a high likliehood that they would be boarded by an Israeli patrol boat, helicopter or some such device. That they were in international waters matters diddly-squat - they knew it was coming.

So why mount any resistance at all? If they're truly innocent and blame-free, stand back and let the soldiers do their job. If they're trying to smuggle contraband, screw them - they got what they deserved.

Bottom line - tension is extremely high in the region () and any sort of provocation would be enough to set a single individual to fire a single shot. Then all hell breaks loose.

So. This is a powder-keg looking for a match. Why do it at all - I don't buy the "humanitarian aid" aspect of it, as aid can get through the blockade (albeit slowly). Plus, you probably have more than a few "greenhorn" soldiers who may be a little jumpy/have itchy trigger-fingers. My guess? I'm thinking the volunteers were sabotaged by an individual or individuals who wanted the Israeli soldiers to fire on and kill a few people. For precisely the reasons stated in most of the commentary - to make Israel look like the bully in the schoolyard, and get world sympathy behind Gaza, and by inference, Hamas.

It's very sad - now the people in Gaza have to suffer more, all for the stupidity of a few individuals on the flotilla, and a few too-trigger-happy Israeli soldiers. Plus it sets the political process back months, if not years.

Originally Posted by Blasted Child

But it's still quite interesting...this whole scenario could very well fall back on one of the most honoured and protected american principles - namely the right to protect yourself against trespassing, at virtually any cost.

Doesn't apply here. The US Coast Guard does this all the time, on vessels suspected of trafficking in cocaine or other contraband. If you're approached by a self-identified military vessel and asked to heave-to, you'd better well do it.

Originally Posted by Blasted Child

If this had been another situation, let's say an american non-military vessel on its way to, let's say the Congo, and the ship was suddenly boarded by Angolan coastguard (ok I'm just throwing out stuff here, don't point out if it's unlikely or whatever) noone in their right mind, especially not Americans, would consider it strange or unappropriate or unlawful if the American charity workers used whatever weapons they could find to protect themselves.

Strictly speaking, I'd guess the US Consulate would make provisions for their safe passage long before any incident took place. It's not foolproof, but it does make for slightly easier accessability. And, (I may be wrong) I think this has happened before, where aid workers were turned away, or refused entry, and they had to either go back, or go to a neighboring country. Maybe the recent situation in Myanmar?

[Tadao]

This isn't America

[The Leader]

Originally Posted by Colonel Flagg

and a few too-trigger-happy Israeli soldiers.

Did you miss the part where they were being shot at?

[Dimnos]

I would really have liked to see them, the Israelis, pull up to the flotilla and announce they would be sinking it in the next five hours. Anyone not wishing to go down with the ship could contact the Israelis who would take them home. Then after the five hours they would sink the thing.

[Blasted Child]

Originally Posted by The Leader

Did you miss the part where they were being shot at?

Trigger-happy and incompetent, I guess it is then

[kahljorn]

HERES THE GREYISH-BROWN AREA:

FUCK ALL OF THOSE ASSHOLES.

[Tadao]

How dare they shoot at someone who is firing a gun at them. I'm outraged.

[Pentegarn]

Well I feel the blame lies at the feet of Harry Truman. He declared Israel a nation.

Israel hits back (maybe harder than a nation should, but showing weakness in that area in that situation would be tantamount to asking for invasion). Heck the US supporting them is pretty much the only thing we have followed through with as a country in the last century.

[Colonel Flagg]

2pts for consistency. Yay us!

[The Leader]

I think Blasted Child is a anti Semite and probably a terrorist.

[Blasted Child]

Originally Posted by Tadao

How dare they shoot at someone who is firing a gun at them. I'm outraged.

ah but you have to agree it's pretty incompetent to board a ship like that. Not only are you a military commando versus a motley crew of activists with sticks and chairs; you manage to get your weapons stolen from you, used against you, and then you end up killing like a dozen of them. That's some pretty bad crowd control if you ask me, but then again I'm no military expert.

Pentegarn, unfortunately this display of brute force doesn't work in favour of Israel - you see, outside of USA, the world kind of thinks that Israel sucks right now. Maybe apart from Palau, you never know with Palau. Every time Israel employs excessive force they lose another chunk of credibility.

As a person who grew up with lectures by holocaust-survivors, films about the holocaust, books about the holocaust (in Sweden during the eighties and nineties there were books informing about the holocaust and the crimes against the jews handed out by the government free of charge) and with Anne Frank's diary as pretty much a mandatory part of the school curriculum, I'm extremely sad that the image of Israel as a victim is being washed out and replaced by Israel as an aggressor.

[Pentegarn]

Originally Posted by Blasted Child

Pentegarn, unfortunately this display of brute force doesn't work in favour of Israel - you see, outside of USA, the world kind of thinks that Israel sucks right now. Maybe apart from Palau, you never know with Palau. Every time Israel employs excessive force they lose another chunk of credibility.

I think that's exactly why Israel is so aggressive. Everyone hated them from the get go when all they did was go where Truman put them. Decades of hatred for something that you didn't really start in the first place, and centuries of hatred for being born who you are born as tends to harden anyone.

[Dimnos]

They didnt know who or what was really on that ship. For all they knew it was Hamas sympathizers trying to sneak in weapons. For their own safety they had to search the ship. Cant blame them for that. I dont know exactly what happened on the ship but if you are repelling down from a helicopter I can see how it would be easy to get swarmed and have a handgun on your side pulled away from you.

The nation of Israel is in the same place as the kingdom of Israel was. So if you want to get into who took whos land from who... They just took back what was theirs since before the common era.

What is excessive force these days? With terrorists blowing shit up, countries vowing to wipe them off the face of the earth, people being kidnapped and rockets being shot into homes where does restraint begin? If it comes down to the choice of credibility vs survivability?

[The Leader]

Originally Posted by Blasted Child

ah but you have to agree it's pretty incompetent to board a ship like that. Not only are you a military commando versus a motley crew of activists with sticks and chairs; you manage to get your weapons stolen from you, used against you, and then you end up killing like a dozen of them. That's some pretty bad crowd control if you ask me, but then again I'm no military expert.

I agree, they should have fired tear gas onto the ship prior to boarding, thus preventing the supposedly peaceful activists from swarming the soldiers. Of course some idiot probably just assumed that the activists would comply with the boarding party.

Originally Posted by Blasted Child

Pentegarn, unfortunately this display of brute force doesn't work in favour of Israel - you see, outside of USA, the world kind of thinks that Israel sucks right now.

Next you're going to say that some people don't like the US!

Originally Posted by Blasted Child

I'm extremely sad that the image of Israel as a victim is being washed out and replaced by Israel as an aggressor.

Where have you been the last 20 years? Sure, at the beginning Israel was only responding to outside threats but I'm pretty sure by the eighties shit was bad. Hell, even in the 70's they were assassinating people. Israel would be screwed if they weren't the rat bastards that they are, so of course they're aggressive and of course everyone knows that. It just depends whether or not you think said aggression is justified.