The "Road Map"

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I honestly haven't been able to research this whole peace process well enough, so the observations I make are simply from a more naive exterior perspective.

I know that folks on both sides of the debate are crying foul play on this one. Israeli Right-Wingers are saying they have been violated, that removing settlements is wrong, no land for peace, etc.

Hardliners on the Palestinian side say the peace proposition isn't enough, and I'm guessing within the next couple of weeks we will begin to see a whole new onslaught of suicide attacks.

So, I guess my question is what do all of you feel about it? Is this progress, injustice, or just the same-old-same-old as far as the Middle East is concerned?

I'm open to all opinions on this one, excluding Vince's, of course.

[ItalianStereotype]

war+magic beans=peace :)

[Zhukov]

I saw a film called Jenin Jenin that interviewed several different Palestinian people from various different walks of life. All the people had different takes on what had happenend and what is happening, but each of their final statements were roughly the same: There will be no peace until a Palestinian state is created with Jerusalem as its capital - even the little girl said she would like to kill Sharon and go back to her ancestoral village. :(


I really don't know what the Israelis want out of the deal.

[Abcdxxxx]

Well, I can shed a little more light on the Israel's side of things.

The "Road Map" is being seen as a formality, and an obligation. More of a joke then anything. Something the world is pressuring, and it's more of a "let's play along again" attitude. The assumption is that these talks will crumble... but this was the same attitude taken during Oslo, and that stuck. In retrospect, Oslo failed, and the interim Palestinian government has failed. Israel feels it's provided concession after concession with nothing in return to suggest this leads to progress. If Israel refuses, they're seen as intolerant, and very few believe the Palestinians or the violence that comes along with their movement will be satisfied with a small coexisting state,

As it stands now, Arafat retains control. He runs the finances. The new PM has been a close partner of his despite the good cop/bad cop media charade. Nothing has changed. Bush called for a total reform, and that hasn't happened. Bush called for free elections. That hasn't happpened. Abu was appointed instead. Why are we proceeding to the next step?

Simply put - The disputed land was always divided, it was conquered from Egypt, and Jordan, not one single consolidated rulership. Therefore it's unreasonable to view this same division of borders in relation to African pontoons (as Chomsky calls them) or to expect a divided Israel to work. Israel retained the disputed land after 1967 to create more defensable borders, and returned the rest. It was mainly undeveloped land.... and there's a lot of undeveloped land in the Middle East due to agricultural, and geographical conditions.

So here are the real issues ....
What have the Palestinians done to prove they are working in good faith? Even if Israel agrees to dismantle settlements, what exactly are we going to define as a settlement? What exactly do the Palestinians define as a settlement? Wouldn't it be a form of ethnic cleansing to remove Jews, or Israeli citizens from the West Bank? Why should anyone support the creation of yet another arabic state where Jews can not be citizens, and own land ? Isn't there a danger in negotiating with those who take militant actions to fight for their political beliefs? Shouldn't we hold the PA to it's various peace treaties, and cease fire agreements? Will the Palestinians stop once there is a state, or will they continue to fight? What reason do we have to ignore the past doctrines of the PLO, calling for death to all Jews, when this is what continues to be tought in schools? How does this work in the favor of Israel at all? For a Palestinian state to exist, they would have to ride the back of enemy Israel. So let's talk about water rations. Energy. Import/Export. Rather then debate the violence and various ways to reprimand Israel, wouldn't it serve the creation of a new State to focus on these issues first?

Finally. What does Israel gain through this road map?

(also, how many of you are aware that there has been an on-going battle for the past year between the IDF and outpost settlers in settlement areas who continue to squat illegaly? )

[AChimp]

The Road Map should include instructions on how to get to Denny's for their breakfast special.

:waffles

[VinceZeb]

The problem is the "Palestinans" are not going anywhere. It isn't there land. Like I said before, I can't sit on my neighboor's yard and claim I am an indian to get the land. But if all the non-Israel's existance folks want to sit there and say that there will be no peace while Israel exists, then Israel should tell them to knuckle up.

But, if the state is formed and the attacks against Israel continue... well, then Israeli tanks need to have some blood on the treds.

[AChimp]

You know, even here in Canada, an Indian CANNOT just arbitrarily claim someone's land because they "want" it. :blah

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think I stated pretty clearly that we wouldn't be needing your services here, Vince. :/

[kellychaos]

"Services", huh? That's the most polite euphimism for "whatever it is Vinth does around here" that I've seen so far. Can I use it?

[VinceZeb]

Kevin, show me the deed to the message board you possess. Wait, you don't have one.

[mburbank]

Of all the clambakes Vinth is the clambakiest. I think someone should sit on him and claim the valuable oxygen he's using. If he refuses to stop breathing, then there will need to be some blood on their shoes.

[Isaac]

Currently the Palistnans, are in the West Bank and Gaza Stip ,prodomently, so if they leave these places, where will they go, and why should they leave at all?..Vinth what the fuck are you saying?

[Abcdxxxx]

I don't think anyone is asking them to "leave". The issue is the act of "returning".

but to answer your question - technically they could immigrate to the remaining 90+ percent of the Middle East owned by Arabs.

In actuality it's the Jews who are being asked to leave areas deemed to be "settlements".

It does bring up the question...if you support the removal of Jews from land set aside to create a Palestinian state, then would you support the ejection of the million plus Arabic citizens living inside Israel??

[VinceZeb]

But ABCD, that would mean that the Arabs would be wrong about something, and very few on this board would admit that. They would rather just make snide comments and avoid the issue.

[mburbank]

Huh. Me? I'd say the 'Arabs', who are actually not a single monolithic block, but a huge stew of countries, politcial parties, religous and ethnic groups, are collectively 'wrong' on all sorts of fronts. But you're speaking speciffically of the arab/israeli conflict. There, there are admittedly only a handful of different stances.

Now that we've dumbed it down to a Vinthinian level, I'd be happy to say that I think the Arabs are often 'wrong', although I think that's really small word for brutality, terrorism, intranscigence, hatred, racism, fantacism, etc. etc. I thoiught you knew I felt that way, Vinth, since you attribute anti arab sentiment when coupled with other anti semitic assumptions you think are in some way shocking and edgy.

In fact, if there's a singole person on the board who DOESN't think the Arabs have some major, hideous problems and that there's plenty of blame sto spread around to all parties, most of whom are Arabs, I've missed it.

Let me go further and say I dount there's anyone on this board who supports Arab interests as blindly as you do or as throughly as ABCDXXXX does.

You look at people who feel that the state of Israel shares some of the blame, that many of their actions are fairly nasty, and in your typical "Anyone who disagrees with me is a pussy and they think what I say they think instead of what they post" way reduce any discussion to the level of a school yard shoving match.

You can't help it. You're an idiot with multiple behavioral and learning dissabilities.

[VinceZeb]

For the time it took you to type that out, you could have impressed some rube that walked into your museum that is soaking up my tax dollars.

[mburbank]

So what you mean is, I'm totally right, your observation was completely wrong, but you think you can dodge that by some stupid ass off topic remark.

And we don't get any state funding at all, and we hve to compete with educational and business interest for the federal money we do get, which is ste aside by the government for science. But I've said that before and you didn't understand it then. Why would you have started understanding it now, Prep school admissions coffee boy?

[Abcdxxxx]

Hey now Burbank, if you're going to take a jab at me then at least tie it in to the posts....


I think what you're missing here is that I do have critical views of Israel, but I don't feel the need to balance myself out for reasonable arguments sake. I'm not blind to Israel's faults, I just don't think they equate the two sides on equal footing.... based on an educated opinion. I actually think people who compare the conflict to two school children, who feel the need to shift blame on all parties without weighing reality is pretty condescending...and really as blind as it gets.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

But ABCD, that would mean that the Arabs would be wrong about something, and very few on this board would admit that. They would rather just make snide comments and avoid the issue.

I hope it's somehow comforting to ABC to know that the guy with the NaziBot avatar is standing up for Israel.

Vince, this thread had so much potential, so much youthful hope, filled with wide-eyed expectations. Then you had to post in it.

So, anyway, ABC....

I don't agree with you on much, but one initial comment you made caught my eye:

"(also, how many of you are aware that there has been an on-going battle for the past year between the IDF and outpost settlers in settlement areas who continue to squat illegaly? )"

I saw something about this on the news, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this result in armed conflict between settlers and the IDF???

This is very interesting. I think it shows at least a PUBLIC willingness on the part of the Israeli government to appear open and willing to compromise. So, ABC, I have heard some Israeli Right-Wingers screaming that dismantling any of these settlements will lead to civil war. Is this simply chest pounding, or is there some validity here? Could Israeli compliance with this peace process fracture the country that badly???

[mburbank]

Ah, you caught me commiting a Vinthism, Abc. I left out some key words in a sentence. My bad.

I said

"I dount there's anyone on this board who supports Arab interests as blindly as you do or as throughly as ABCDXXXX does. "

I SHOULD have said "as blindly as you or as throughly as ABCDXXXX support Israeli interests."

By thorough, in your case, I meant informed, and I didn't inend it as a Slam. Your approach (though I disagree often with your conclusions) is Nuance itself comnpared to Vince. I still say though, and this is meant as a rebuttal to Vinth's take on the boards majority, the both you and Vinth, for diffeent reasons, support Israel far more thn anyone here suppoprts any Arab contituency.

People can argue with you, and actual learning can take place. people can't argue with Vinth, becuase he doesn't understand their arguments and insists on construing them as being as infantile, simplistic and weighted as his own. For that matter, people can argue with Italian, El Blanco, Bombs (when he feels like it) and on very rare occasions, even Naldo.

[Abcdxxxx]

ok looks like my response got lost here.

kevin - it's really the opposite. if anything israel is less willing to come down hard on the settlements in a public forum. this has been going on for over a year now, and it's just making it's way to mainstream media...

but to answer... there will. and has been some civil infghting. not sure i'd expect a full on "civil war" though. here's what's going on. israel has turned it's back on the settlements and began targeting the "settlements" that are nothing more then two trailor homes propped up on cinder blocks on some empty hill. these are considered illegal to israel. very little of the housing is government sponsored. think of a complex the size of stuyvesant apartments in nyc, in relation to the entire east side of manhattan. not only has the idf become reluctant to protect the majority of settlements, they have forcefully removed structures, and evicted the residents as sqauters. this has led to violent clashes of a civil uprising nature. in one case last summer, the idf would tear down a farm house, and the settlers would symbolicaly rebuild it again overnight . they've taken to arming themselves not just against the palestinians but against the idf.

i think it's likely there will be attempts to kill sharon. we shouldn't forget that rabin's assasination was likely an inside job.

i want to say something that's very important. do not view all settlers as religious extremists or rebel rousers. some of these communities allow palestinian residents for example. do not assume all of these settlements are even jews. the reluctance to make these distinctions shows the same intolerance as the indymedia crowd who have taken to referencing all israel supporters as nazi's. vince's icon aside... it's frightening.

i still haven't heard an explanation for why gaza and the west bank should be cleansed of all jews. anyone want to answer that?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

i want to say something that's very important. do not view all settlers as religious extremists or rebel rousers. some of these communities allow palestinian residents for example.

Well, since I posed the question to you, more has come up in the press b/c Israel has begun to dismantle some of these outposts.

I read that the head of the settlement communities has a three-pronged strategy of disobedience. One entails fighting this politically within the givernment, the other involves legally appealing this by taking it to their supreme court, and the other involves non-violent civil disobedience.

Now, I realize that most Palestinians don't have the luxury of those kinds of appeals for several reasons (an incompetent self-governance a big part of that), however, I'm beginning to think that many extremist Palestinians could learn a thing or two from the measures being taken by these settlers. Granted, when the IDF roles into Gaza, they probably aren't as cautious and gentle as when they role into a settlement outpost, but I think the actions being taken by these settlers are along the lines of action that many from the more "pro-palestinian" perspective have been hoping we'd see from them.

i still haven't heard an explanation for why gaza and the west bank should be cleansed of all jews. anyone want to answer that?

Was this a stipulation in the peace plan? I've heard nothing of this.

[Abcdxxxx]

Granted, when the IDF roles into Gaza, they probably aren't as cautious and gentle as when they role into a settlement outpost,

When the IDF rolls into a settlement, the world media isn't documenting their every move. Whatever Israel does within PA territory is widely watched. The difference is that ultimately the settlers want a strong Israel, some have served in the IDF, and there is still a mutual understanding of the same goals through different means. It's interesting that this all is just now finally making news.

but I think the actions being taken by these settlers are along the lines of action that many from the more "pro-palestinian" perspective have been hoping we'd see from them.

Sure, and the pro-israel contingent hope for the same.... but there is still the subtext that the foundations for this particular "liberation" movement is built around racial hate, and a resistance to coexistance. This isn't just in the minds of fanatic zionists. Otherwise Palestinian's are more then capable of matching the moral ideals behind settler uprising tactics. Adopting these same strategies might even get them a state, but it would kill the palestinian's economy, which revolves completely around violence. Hamas and co. might provide community outreach, but they're in the business of war.

i still haven't heard an explanation for why gaza and the west bank should be cleansed of all jews. anyone want to answer that?

Was this a stipulation in the peace plan? I've heard nothing of this.

Why else are the settlements even an issue? They want to dismantled and remove all Jewish settlements, which would make the land "juden rein"...Jewish free. Otherwise, the settlements and their residents could in theory become citizens of a new Palestinian state, and a Jew could run for office in a new Democratic government. Think that's really gonna happen?

Gaza is the size of Long Island, and if anyone really thinks it's inhabitable (blech!) , then there's still plenty to be developed....so while Gaza city itself is densely populated, it's not like land there is scarce.

[VinceZeb]

Kevin needs to quit running his mouth. The diahrea that is spewing out is flooding my keyboard.

Hamas is the main thorn in Israel's side in this whole situation. They have said they will not stop until Israel does not exist. Now, according to the "Bush Doctrine", Israel should go in there and crush them under their tank treads. That is the appropriate course of action.

[mburbank]

If diareah is coming out of Kevins mouth, why do you keep asking him to blow you?

I mean, you've made it clear you're gay, and there's nothing wrong with that, but asking someone who has diareah coming out of their mouth to blow you... well, that's just kind of sick, don't you think, you sick, fat, gay, transgressive, stupid kid?

[mburbank]

"Oh! Oh! Thtop being so Jewith while you are eating a bagel and doing other Jew thingth, Jew! I said you are a Jew and you have Judaism! Jew! You are a Jew in front of your family!"
-L'il Cindy Clambake

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kevin needs to quit running his mouth. The diahrea that is spewing out is flooding my keyboard.

Whatever you say, mein furer. But hey, could you stop ruining every good thread on this board??? It's getting sort of lame, kind of like you, your avatar, and pretty much your life.

Hamas is the main thorn in Israel's side in this whole situation. They have said they will not stop until Israel does not exist. Now, according to the "Bush Doctrine", Israel should go in there and crush them under their tank treads. That is the appropriate course of action.

Israel could do this if they wanted, why do you think they don't?? Thank God their decision makers are a LOT brighter than you certainly are.

[VinceZeb]

Kevin, my existance must make you fill with anger, huh?

I am glad.

[mburbank]

Is that why you want him to blow you while diareah comes out of his mouth? To make him mad?

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm not sure why I'm responding to this in seriousness but...

If Hamas was wiped out it would hardly make a dent in a movement where violence is institutionalized.

The acceptance, and "understanding" of hate crimes like today's suicide bombing is far worse then the Hamas faction itself. When someone dresses as a religious Jew in order to kill Jews, or targets religious Jews on the outset of the Sabbath it's not just about the liberation of land, it's about racial and religious intolerance.

[mburbank]

I'd agree with that.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/19/international/middleeast/19CND-SETT.html

June 19, 2003

Israeli Troops Face Protests as They Dismantle Settlement
By GREG MYRE

MITZPEH YITZHAR, West Bank, June 19 — In repeated scuffles that often resembled a huge rugby scrum, hundreds of Israeli security force members wrestled today with Jewish settlers trying to prevent the dismantling of the first populated settlement targeted under a Mideast peace plan.

The day's turmoil also included a Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up at daybreak and killed an Israeli shop owner in a farming community, 25 miles to the north of the confrontation at the Jewish settlement.

With peace efforts sputtering, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell was due in the region on Friday for separate talks with the Israelis and Palestinians. The two sides have been attempting to work out a cease-fire arrangement, but have yet to strike a deal.

At the settlement of Mitzpeh Yitzhar, the young, bearded settlers set up large rock barricades, lit hillside brush fires and threw themselves in front of army vehicles to prevent soldiers and police from taking down the tents and a cinder-block hut.

For the past year, up to 10 settlers have been living at the hilltop site, just south of Nablus, the largest Palestinian city in the West Bank.

Many settlers believe God promised the land to the Jews and reject any talk of territorial concessions to the Palestinians, who want the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for a future state.

"In the Bible, it says this land is for us," said Moshe Cohen, 27, a university student who arrived from Tel Aviv to take part in the protest. "This land belongs to Israel just as much as Tel Aviv."

About 30 security force members and settlers suffered mostly minor injuries, and police made 15 arrests, Israel radio reported.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel has supported building settlements for decades, but the Mideast peace plan, known as the road map, requires him to take down dozens of small settlements that have cropped up since he came to power in March 2001.

"I'm telling the young men to hold strong to the land of Israel and not let anybody take it away from them," said Rabbi Eliyakim Levanon, who came from a nearby settlement.

"The government of Israeli gave the soldiers an order which is immoral," said the white-bearded rabbi, dressed in a black suit and a white dress shirt on a sun-scorched day. "We will try to keep the soldiers from fulfilling the order."

Young men kept watch overnight Wednesday and were ready this morning when the Israeli army and the police to came up a winding road to the rocky, windswept outpost.

The settlers tossed buckets of purple and orange paint on the windshields of army vehicles. After blocking earth movers with their bodies and forcing them to stop, the settlers sat inside the jaws and remained for hours.

The brush fires covered the hillside and quickly spread to nearby olive groves.

Many soldiers and police did not carry weapons, and they sought to avoid using force. But every time they moved toward the outpost, clusters of settlers jumped in their path, and pushing, shoving, shouting and wrestling quickly ensued.

Dozens were often involved in the brawls, but hundreds took part in a melee as soldiers pulled down the main tent amid a cloud of dust.

The tense atmosphere would calm briefly between battles. Soldiers would share snacks with the settlers. In one instance, a soldier gave his water bottle to a settler who was dripping with sweat as he tossed wood on a fire that was blocking the road to the settlement.

One protester, Yossi, encountered his brother, Moshe, a soldier, Israel radio reported, without giving their last name.

"We greeted each other and embraced, and continued with our business," Yossi said. "We know many soldiers in the area, and they know us. We cry, and they cry with us, and we are all equally pained."

By sundown, soldiers had removed the tents and demolished the cinderblock hut and an outhouse with sledgehammers. Only a guard post was left standing, but the settlers remained.

"This government is crazy," said Shilo, a student at a Jewish seminary who declined to give his last name. "We can come back tomorrow and rebuild this."

Mr. Sharon's government said it took down 10 uninhabited settlements last week. It also listed five populated ones that were to be dismantled, and Mitzpeh Yitzhar was the first.

Peace Now, an Israeli group that monitors settlements, says that more than 60 have gone up in the West Bank since Mr. Sharon came to power. The government has not said how many will be dismantled, but it has suggested it will be far fewer than 60.

The Palestinians say the road map is clear on the settlements: all must come down.

Mitzpeh Yitzhar is typical of many outposts. It has just a few residents and is less than a mile from the formal settlement of Yitzhar, home to some of the most ideologically hard-line Israeli settlers.

More than 200,000 Israelis live in nearly 150 formal settlements that have been built in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, land Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war.

Adi Mintz, general manager of the Settlers Council, an umbrella group that represents all the settlements, said the protesters would make every evacuation difficult.

"Wherever Mr. Sharon tries to move Jews from their homes, we will be there to protest," he said. "Every place that Mr. Sharon destroys, we will rebuild."
-30-

[Abcdxxxx]

Okay so the media are gonna eat this shit up... but it's not the boiling point they're hoping for. Watch when they try and dismantle the legal settlements. Does this mean Orthodox Jews are not worthy of equal human rights now?

More importantly, what of the recent precedent set by Palestinian Arabs to relocate Christians from Bethlehem turning it into a Muslim city? So NOW the world accepts a forced population transfer as legitimate?

Meanwhile there was another suicide bombing INSIDE Israel, not the territories. Yesterday a 7 year old girl was murdered INSIDE Israel, not the territories, and her 3 year old sister remains in intensive care. It's not a peace process if Jews are being removed from their homes, while Arab mass murderers are still proudly butchering children.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

More importantly, what of the recent precedent set by Palestinian Arabs to relocate Christians from Bethlehem turning it into a Muslim city? So NOW the world accepts a forced population transfer as legitimate?

I have not heard about this. Most "pro-palestinians" tend to use the fact that Christians live there as an ace in their proverbial deck. It doesn't make sense politically to me....

Meanwhile there was another suicide bombing INSIDE Israel, not the territories. Yesterday a 7 year old girl was murdered INSIDE Israel, not the territories, and her 3 year old sister remains in intensive care. It's not a peace process if Jews are being removed from their homes, while Arab mass murderers are still proudly butchering children.

And what you want is precisely what they want.

[Abcdxxxx]

Can you clarify your "what they want is what you want" statement?

As for the Christian population ... they've been uprooted from their homes by palestinian Arabs. I don't care how this is being used politically, it's still an unfortunate and inexcusable act for a movement that takes the righteous stance that murder is a just and moraly equivalent act of retribution for population changeovers. The reality is the pro-Palesitnian contigent ignore the issue entirely, and the Christians of the Middle East keep their mouths shut because they hate Jews and Israel just that much. If you think this is fiction, then explain another reason why the town of Bethlehem is no longer a Christian stronghold?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

[quote="Abcdxxxx"]Can you clarify your "what they want is what you want" statement?

A stagnation of a peace process that you find to be insufficient.

[Abcdxxxx]

Maybe if you believe in moral equality.

The definition of the word "peace" itself needs to come into question. What does each side mean when they say they want peace? It's not hard to come across quotes from Palestinian leadership of all factions describing their ideal peace, one without Jews or an Israel. Maybe the typical pro-palestinian supporter rejects that stance, but I would challenege you to find a Palestinian website stating a desire for co-existance living amongst Jews, not to mention the complete acceptance of an Israeli State. If that's not a clear and recognized ideal of peace then where in the hell is this road map even going?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The definition of the word "peace" itself needs to come into question. What does each side mean when they say they want peace? It's not hard to come across quotes from Palestinian leadership of all factions describing their ideal peace, one without Jews or an Israel. Maybe the typical pro-palestinian supporter rejects that stance, but I would challenege you to find a Palestinian website stating a desire for co-existance living amongst Jews, not to mention the complete acceptance of an Israeli State. If that's not a clear and recognized ideal of peace then where in the hell is this road map even going?

1. The platform of Hamas is not the platform entailed within this peace plan.

2. Again, the very things you've stated above are exactly why these extremists, much like some of the extremists refusing to leave bogus settlements, are attempting to hold up or end this peace process.

3. There's nothing mandating that Palestinians like, or have to live with Jews. People are entitled to their own ignorant prejudices. This doesn't mean the Palestinians don't deserve their state.

[Abcdxxxx]

3. There's nothing mandating that Palestinians like, or have to live with Jews. People are entitled to their own ignorant prejudices. This doesn't mean the Palestinians don't deserve their state.

That's INSANE...and it's irresponsible. This attitude will responsible for another Jewish Holocaust. State hood is not a reward for racial intolerance and violence. Saying they "deserving" it suggest it was even something to be "earned". Does an "entitlement" to ignorance explain why the world rationalizes the continous acts of war against Israel? Is that what you support?

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezzbolah, the PLFP, Fatah, the PLO, and the PA ARE ALL THE SAME ORGANIZATION, with the SAME road map, the same ideals, and the same goals. They were born from the same place. The Palestinians who do want to coexist, and do want true peace without a final solution death of all Jews are a SILENT and inaffective minority. They have oppurtunities to live in peace by becoming Israeli citizens, or citizens of 21 Arabic states. Israel is the only place a Jew can reside in that part of the world. This is not what extremist right wing Jews are telling you, it's what THEY, the Palestinian people are telling you... through actions, through words, and through documentation.

[VinceZeb]

Don't tell Kevin those kinds of things! >: >: >:

He just may have to face reality and realize that his "love all feel good" attitudes towards everything that is opposite of the dirty conservatives is what kills people. Appeasement killed the Jews the first time around, if you will remember.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

That's INSANE...and it's irresponsible. This attitude will responsible for another Jewish Holocaust.

This is a completely sensationalized statement. This is why there will never EVER be peace, not while arguments like this are made. There can be no compromise. Every Palestinian is a rotten Arab terrorist, Israel is never in the wrong, EVER, and the only peace will be a full relocation of Palestinians into all of those other "Arab muslim countries." I mean, "they've" already got like 12 of them, right?

State hood is not a reward for racial intolerance and violence.

If this were true, the United States would've been nulified a long time ago. Statehood isn't a boy scout's merit badge to be granted by the judges in another sovereign state, LEAST of all Israel.

Racism and intolerance exist everywhere. If you feel that every racist and bigot should be relinquished of their citizenship, well we'll have a long list to deal with.

Saying they "deserving" it suggest it was even something to be "earned". Does an "entitlement" to ignorance explain why the world rationalizes the continous acts of war against Israel? Is that what you support?

I support a two state solution. I don't support terrorism, so piss off you self-righteous fuck. You have NO IDEA how much I support Israel and her quest for peace and security, but whenever I talk to extremists like yourself, I quickly remember that peace can never be. You don't want a solution, you want the same thing Hamas wants-- complete annihilation. Perhaps not physical genocide, but in your tone, the way all Palestinians become terrorists and murderers in your mind, I can see that relocation would make you happy. Or perhaps just a flat out war.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezzbolah, the PLFP, Fatah, the PLO, and the PA ARE ALL THE SAME ORGANIZATION, with the SAME road map, the same ideals, and the same goals. They were born from the same place. The Palestinians who do want to coexist, and do want true peace without a final solution death of all Jews are a SILENT and inaffective minority.

Right, I see. Just like all of those rotten Jews are the same, all from the same worthless sand doon next to the Mediterranean. All of them are the same Right-Wing extremists who feal religiously entitled, all of them are the ones who support relocating Arabs, all of them are just like the guy who shot and killed Rabin. They're all from the same fucking place.

They have oppurtunities to live in peace by becoming Israeli citizens, or citizens of 21 Arabic states.

NEWS FLASH: THEY WANT THEIR OWN STATE, AND THEY WANT IT TO BE WHERE THEY FEEL IS HOME, MUCH LIKE JEWS IN THE 1ST HALF OF THE CENTURY DIDN'T WANT TO LIVE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF FUCKING AFRICA.

Israel is the only place a Jew can reside in that part of the world. This is not what extremist right wing Jews are telling you, it's what THEY, the Palestinian people are telling you... through actions, through words, and through documentation.

Not all of them, and hatred begets hatred. You can't say every Israeli is willing to open their doors and have Palestinians come and be citizens. At the rate they are reproducing, if refuges all became citizens, it would threaten the status of Israel as the Jewish state. I'm certain that many don't want that, and that many want them to just "go away."

Don't tell Kevin those kinds of things!

He just may have to face reality and realize that his "love all feel good" attitudes towards everything that is opposite of the dirty conservatives is what kills people. Appeasement killed the Jews the first time around, if you will remember.

AWWW!!! That's SO CUTE! Vince thinks he can contribute something of substance to this thread!! That's just adorable.

[VinceZeb]

Amazingly enough, you didn't answer or try to debate what I said. You just decided to be cute and insult me. Please, try again. If you don't, we will just have to put you back at the kid's table.

[Carnivore]

You've been given chance after chance to prove that it's not a complete waste of time to answer or debate you. You've squandered every chance you've been given. You're simply not worth serious consideration. You're a joke, a side show, an ignorant moron with the arguing skill of a four-year old.

[Zhukov]

Step right up! Step right up folks! For the amazing Vince boy!

Thats right! He shows blatant disregard for the English language!

Ethics? Morals? - Fuck 'em! Vince boy just doesn't seem to care!

If you look closely you can see how he has lost the power of rational thought!

His opinions are so bad he's practically giving them away!

How about some Jew jokes for the missus?

For only a penny you too can see the amazing Vince boy in his own environment!

[ranxer]

vince kinda reminds me of dogshit on my shoe, no matter what you do, once you step in it yer gonna smell it. please just wipe it off outside, don't bring it in the house, don't pick it up and examine it.. don't .. blabla

[Abcdxxxx]

kevin - "This is a completely sensationalized statement. This is why there will never EVER be peace, not while arguments like this are made. There can be no compromise. Every Palestinian is a rotten Arab terrorist, Israel is never in the wrong, EVER, and the only peace will be a full relocation of Palestinians into all of those other "Arab muslim countries." I mean, "they've" already got like 12 of them, right? "

actually, they've got 21, and a whole mess of unused land. Secondly, it's not sensationalized when the Palestinian population majority and their community groups, along with it's governing officials have stated this as a goal. Would you like quotes? When Palestinians became a political movement it was always tied in to a dream for pushing all the Jews into the ocean. There has never been a period of time when the creation of a Palestinian state didn't come with a promise of a Jewish holocaust. I'm not saying Palestinians need to be reolocated for peace to occur....you're brain dead if that's what you're reading... I'm saying the relocation should have occured during 1948, or 1967, or at some point, and that Palestinian Arabs have had MANY oppurtunities to settle on land OTHER then Tel Aviv. I'm not calling for relocation, but I'm saying it's an option Jews do not have. Get it?

What comprimise has anyone asked from the Palestinians? To stop killing? How is that a comprimise?

Kevin - "You have NO IDEA how much I support Israel and her quest for peace and security, but whenever I talk to extremists like yourself, I quickly remember that peace can never be. You don't want a solution, you want the same thing Hamas wants-- complete annihilation."

Pretty funny. You're a scary kid. As long as you convey that viewpoints like mine are that of an extremists, comparable to Hamas, you're doing more harm then good. Once again, you're real, real confused what an extremist viewpoint in Israel even is. Go ahead and quote something I've said that conveys my supposed Hamas like dream to "annihilate them all". How many times must I use the word coexistance before you actually read it?

kevin - "NEWS FLASH: THEY WANT THEIR OWN STATE, AND THEY WANT IT TO BE WHERE THEY FEEL IS HOME, MUCH LIKE JEWS IN THE 1ST HALF OF THE CENTURY DIDN'T WANT TO LIVE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF FUCKING AFRICA. "

News flash - they never had a state, there was never a seperate Arab ruled state called Palestine EVER. There was never a seperate language, border or culture defining an Arab majority Palestine segregated of Jews and Christians... and whatever need there was for an Arab state carved into that land was meant to be served through the creation of Jordan. It's revitionist fiction to say otherwise. Palestinians left their land, or sold it, as a result of a war forced on Israel at it's infancy. At it's outset, Egypt and Jordan occupied the land that is now in dispute today. So fine, give them Gaza if they want it.

Palestinian Arabs HAVE been mistreated, but they have also been given oppurtunities for autonomy, and coexistance and it's misguided to blame Jews or Israel for the entirety of their plight. Unless maybe you take the lazy and bigoted stance of saying "of course it's the fault of the Jews, without them we wouldn't have a problem!"....which would in fact make YOU an extremist. Oh and what can we say of someone who offers blind support for a movement CENTERING around institutionalized racism, and Holocaust denial, along with the premeditate violence against civilians based solely on their Jewishness?

KEvin -"I'm certain that many don't want that, and that many want them to just "go away."

You're certainty doesn't match the polls within Israel. The problem is there is no true definition of what a Palestinian is, so if some guy moved to Gaza last year from Egypt, and joined up with Hamas, then why should they be granted citizenship? Meanwhile, Israel HAS paid reparations, and offered a home to a large amount of Arabs. Since you claim to care for the security and livelyhood of an Israeli state, then I ask when will it be time to put a foot down and realize appeasement has never brought peace????

[KevinTheOmnivore]

actually, they've got 21, and a whole mess of unused land.

Right, unused land, because they live in a region of the globe that is quite fertile in every way. Maybe they should've accepted all that "unused land" from Barak that used to be for waste dumping, eh?

You lump Arabs together like M&Ms in a candy jar. This is your problem, and it's one of your key contradictions.

Secondly, it's not sensationalized when the Palestinian population majority and their community groups, along with it's governing officials have stated this as a goal. Would you like quotes?

Yes, I do want quotes, but not quotes from outraged Palestinians who have had their homes run down by the IDF, or their homes blown out while the IDF persued a "terrorist," nor one who had been waiting for 8 hours in a line of cars to get past a check point.

Treat people like shit, and they will jump to their own conclusions.

Actually, the quotes I want are ones that reinforce your claim further down that Israelis would be MORE than glad to live in one state with these Arabs who they aren't even sure truly exist.

When Palestinians became a political movement it was always tied in to a dream for pushing all the Jews into the ocean. There has never been a period of time when the creation of a Palestinian state didn't come with a promise of a Jewish holocaust.

Right, because when they finally did become politicized, it was in a reactionary fashion towards large influxes of Jewish immigrants to their lands. Does it have to do with anti-semetism? As I've said in the past, certainly. But it makes sense that those who are faced with a seemingly unpreventable result will react harshly.

I'm not saying Palestinians need to be reolocated for peace to occur....you're brain dead if that's what you're reading...

Just like I approve of suicide bombings on buses, the deaths of children, etc.


I'm saying the relocation should have occured during 1948, or 1967, or at some point, and that Palestinian Arabs have had MANY oppurtunities to settle on land OTHER then Tel Aviv. I'm not calling for relocation, but I'm saying it's an option Jews do not have. Get it?

1. Relocation in 1948 is not only extreme, but it's something defenders of Israel would swear wasn't even a real option. You deny your extremism, yet unveil it every chance you get.

2. If the Jews have no option, why do so many Israeli citizens live abroad? If there are no other options, why has emmigration always been a problem there? Right, These mythical Palestinians have options, they can go live in places like Jordan or Saudi Arabia, and be looked down upon the way Mexicans are viewed here in America.

What comprimise has anyone asked from the Palestinians? To stop killing? How is that a comprimise?

They are ALL clearly doing it, too. Oh, I forgot, even the local PTA has it on their weekly agenda to push the weasels into the sea and indulge in their blood. Those rotten Arans. What shall we do with them? We need some kind of a solution, don't ya think?

Pretty funny. You're a scary kid. As long as you convey that viewpoints like mine are that of an extremists, comparable to Hamas, you're doing more harm then good. Once again, you're real, real confused what an extremist viewpoint in Israel even is.

Condescending twit. If you think people like me are Israel's enemies, then Israel has VERY few friends. Tell me, if relocation in 1948 and relinquishing their state identity now isn't extreme, what is? Any solution from the far Right?


Go ahead and quote something I've said that conveys my supposed Hamas like dream to "annihilate them all".

Go back and read what I said. You DON'T WANT a Palestinian state, you detest the Palestinian identity, if you even acknowledge their existence. You ARE an extremist.

How many times must I use the word coexistance before you actually read it?

Yes, give up these silly hopes and dreams, strip yourselves of this faux identity you've manufactured in your minds, become citizens of the Jewish state, and be the little pet project of the Israeli hierarchy. You can still live in the same slums, still live in poverty, and best yet, call yourselves Israelis! Maybe we could give them special identification, so they can "distinguish" themselves from the Jews....any ideas?


News flash - they never had a state, there was never a seperate Arab ruled state called Palestine EVER. There was never a seperate language, border or culture defining an Arab majority Palestine segregated of Jews and Christians...

Nor was there an Israel beyond the Old Testament and the Macabees, and even their outdated version of Hewbrew needed to be updated in order to suffice as a new state language.

The influx of Jews to the land, which they oipposed, created a sense of identity and commonality. A convenient "other" can do this, and it is clearly there.

and whatever need there was for an Arab state carved into that land was meant to be served through the creation of Jordan. It's revitionist fiction to say otherwise.

They denied the UNSCOMP decision in 47, thus negating the Jordanian option (which even by 47 wasn't an option, the king of Jordan was a greedy opportunist who didn't give a damn about those people).

To look back at this as the litmus test for Palestinian statehood in 2003 is stagnant and infantile.


Palestinian Arabs HAVE been mistreated, but they have also been given oppurtunities for autonomy, and coexistance and it's misguided to blame Jews or Israel for the entirety of their plight.

It of course is not, but unlike your narrow perspective on things, Israel certainly DOES have a role in the problem, one that goes beyond that of the innocent victim.

Unless maybe you take the lazy and bigoted stance of saying "of course it's the fault of the Jews, without them we wouldn't have a problem!"....which would in fact make YOU an extremist.

This is not what I believe, nor have I ever indicated this. My view has always been more complex than that, and never have I sought to canonize one side while vilifying the other. This is something you most certainly do.

Oh and what can we say of someone who offers blind support for a movement CENTERING around institutionalized racism, and Holocaust denial, along with the premeditate violence against civilians based solely on their Jewishness?

Again, your goals and desires are exposed. The hope for the proposed Palestinian state should/would be one based upon fair elections, freedom of thought, and liberalism. Your hope is none of this, in fact, what you would prefer is ANY kind of a solution that would force all of those lumped together, rotten Arabs to stop hating Jrews. Stop lying about Jews. Heck, how about we have the Kinesset APPOINT the leadership, and run it as a satellite state!? As long as no naughty, anti-semetic thoughts ever pass through their non-existent minds. Quite the moderate you are.

You're certainty doesn't match the polls within Israel.

My quoted "go away" comes right from the language used in a poll, actually. Please, provide me with the poll indicating the impending 60's love fest they desire, would ya?

The problem is there is no true definition of what a Palestinian is, so if some guy moved to Gaza last year from Egypt, and joined up with Hamas, then why should they be granted citizenship?

This is very funny, coming from someone who is Jewish, defending a state where the qualifications for citizenship need only be your mother's last name.

Meanwhile, Israel HAS paid reparations, and offered a home to a large amount of Arabs. Since you claim to care for the security and livelyhood of an Israeli state, then I ask when will it be time to put a foot down and realize appeasement has never brought peace????

Nor have check points, nor have occupations, nor have out posts and settlements.

[GAsux]

I have nothing substantial or worthwhile to add here. I'm not nearly as informed as I'd like to be, particularly in the historical context.

But I wanted to tell both ABCD and Kev that I appreciate your arguments. Aside from all the bullshit that goes on in this forum, this is one of the few threads that I look forward to reading because it's actually enlightening to me.

So fight on!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're most certainly welcome, GAsux. I hear ya on the abundance of bullshit on this board lately.

Here's an article on Hamas I thought might raise some debate points:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/26/hamas/index.html

Hamas: A study in contrasts
By Matthew Chance
CNN

Thursday, June 26, 2003
Posted: 12:51 PM EDT (1651 GMT)

(CNN) -- For many, it is made up of terrorists bent on the destruction of Israel, the main obstacle on the so-called road map to peace. For many others in the occupied territories and across the Arab and Muslim world it is a legitimate organization that fights a brutal military occupation and extends a helping hand and social welfare to Palestinian people.

Hamas fighters and suicide bombers strike terror in the heart of Israel and the occupied territories, killing Israeli soldiers and civilians alike.

Ending the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory in the West Bank and Gaza is their aim, and one that is widely supported among Palestinians. Destroying Israel remains the official long-term goal of Hamas.

Hamas leaders, though, such as paralyzed cleric Sheik Yassin, have long argued they are willing to consider a truce, or a "hudna," if Israel withdraws from Palestinian land.

"Everyone wants to achieve a decisive victory, but is Israel ready to compromise and give Palestinians their rights and their independence?" Yassin says from his wheelchair. "They can decide if there is war or if there is peace".

Hamas' attempts to match Israeli military might -- regularly firing makeshift Qassam missiles into Israel from the cover of orange and olive groves in Gaza -- have never been very effective.

But its far more devastating suicide bombings, such as the one that left 17 Israelis dead in Jerusalem on June 11 and the many before that, define Hamas as one of the world's most ruthless militant groups.

"First of all, let us say that is not good we have to do this," says Ismail Abu Shanad, a senior Hamas political spokesman in Gaza. "But war is war. Israelis are in a war against us and our people are in self-defense, so they react."

Hamas violence is accompanied by an equally zealous commitment to charity.

In Gaza's impoverished suburbs, those in need -- and there are many -- collect food from centers set up by Islamic charities.

Much of Hamas' power stems from this social system that stands in contrast to the inefficiency and corruption that plagues the Palestinian Authority.

"The government gives us nothing," says one woman struggling with her child and a sack of rice from a Hamas-backed charity. "We are lucky to have this place."

In the classrooms of Islamic kindergartens in Gaza, the young are drilled in religious beliefs. Teachers, their faces covered by veils, say they don't preach hatred. But, they say, all the children here already know Israel as their enemy.

Israel says Hamas schools lead the way in inciting hatred in Palestinian youngsters toward Israelis.

"The way forward is for Palestinians to realize that suicide bombers and this whole approach of violence has harmed the Palestinian cause," says M.J. Gohel of the Asia-Pacific Institute in London. "The trouble is that there is too much support for the policy of violence not just among Palestinians but also within the wider Arab world."

Palestinian security officials say they are physically unable and politically unwilling to crack down on Hamas. Israel says it will crush Hamas, if the Palestinian Authority does not.

Israeli assassination strikes on Hamas leaders, say Israeli officials, are putting the group under intense pressure. Palestinian security officials say the killings are making it more unlikely a cease-fire agreement will be reached.

Some Palestinians say tempting Hamas members to turn away from violence and toward a responsible role in government -- to co-opt them -- may be the best way to achieve lasting peace.

"We need unity of decision and this cannot be realized except by getting all these political forces into one body that we call the national unity leadership, where issues can be discussed in detail and then resolutions can be adopted democratically, " says Dr. Haider Abdel Shafi, former chief Palestinian negotiator at the Madrid peace talks of 1991.

"Then every party would be committed to one resolution, including Hamas."

Whether Hamas will join such a government -- and honor a much debated truce that might give the U.S.-backed road map peace plan a chance -- is now the point of fierce debate within the group.

Whether Hamas will even get a chance to join a unity government is another question. President Bush said on Wednesday "In order for there to be peace, Hamas must be dismantled." Hamas has long been on the U.S. government's list of terrorist organizations.

Few are optimistic, but the coming weeks could decide the road Hamas, and Israeli-Palestinian peace, is to take.
-30-

[Abcdxxxx]

Haven't had time to respond...

... But MSNB informed it's viewers of this cheery news ....

“The truce between Israel and the Palestinians seems to be holding, DESPITE TWO ATTACKS by militants today.”

Last I heard saying "We won't kill your people if you give us what we want" was an unaccaptable form of blackmail.

[VinceZeb]

ABCD, don't point that out EVER AGAIN! The Palestinians are a nice, cheery, hardworking folk that have never done anything wrong ever and were there for 10,000 years before the evil Jews came in and took their land and are slaughtering their people left and right!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

“The truce between Israel and the Palestinians seems to be holding, DESPITE TWO ATTACKS by militants today.”

Last I heard saying "We won't kill your people if you give us what we want" was an unaccaptable form of blackmail.

Heh, it's funny. Steps are actually being taken to make this a viable peace plan, and the only people you can find yourself in agreement with ABC are the very same militants who wantto ruin the process. Good company...?

ABCD, don't point that out EVER AGAIN! The Palestinians are a nice, cheery, hardworking folk that have never done anything wrong ever and were there for 10,000 years before the evil Jews came in and took their land and are slaughtering their people left and right!

It's really entertaining to watch you try. You're like the little kid who just had the training wheels removed from his Huffy bicycle, and now he's trying to ride on two wheels. Ride, Vince, ride! :tear

[Abcdxxxx]

Heh, it's funny. Steps are actually being taken to make this a viable peace plan, and the only people you can find yourself in agreement with ABC are the very same militants who wantto ruin the process. Good company...?


Eh ? Viable for who?

I'd much rather respond to your OTHER nonesense post... but just quickly... for those who aren't keeping score...the only concession the Palestinians have offered is a figurative three month promise of a cease fire so filled with loopholes, it excludes several militant groups AND HAS BEEN BREACHED. How many promises of a cease fire have the Palestinians agreed to and breached? ALL OF THEM. It's meaningless.


I want the kind of peace where a cease fire has meaning. Isn't that the kind of peace you want, Kevin? Am I wrong? When have the Palestinians ever met the requirements of their own cease fire decrees?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'd much rather respond to your OTHER nonesense post...

Then please do. I've read too many "college books" that have instilled me with anti-semitic thoughts, and I'm in need of an "expert's" clarification.

but just quickly... for those who aren't keeping score...the only concession the Palestinians have offered is a figurative three month promise of a cease fire so filled with loopholes, it excludes several militant groups AND HAS BEEN BREACHED. How many promises of a cease fire have the Palestinians agreed to and breached? ALL OF THEM. It's meaningless.

It has been breached because they don't want peace and stability, which is something I'm willing to bet most Palestinians in fact do want.

I want the kind of peace where a cease fire has meaning. Isn't that the kind of peace you want, Kevin? Am I wrong? When have the Palestinians ever met the requirements of their own cease fire decrees?

You are looking at an established state, with established laws, institutions, and bureacracy, who have a trained standing army, going up against a non-state of people clumped together. No real order, no real law, no real stability in their lives. If an Israeli breaks the law, steals a car, shoots a civilian, there is a code of law which to punish him/her by. The Palestinians don't have this, but they want this. Trying to control the actions of a militant is like Hamid Karzai trying to control Afghanistan with the few thousand poorly trained soldiers he has against the warlords. It is difficult at best, if not impossible.

On your question of viability, I see ANYTHING as progress between these two factions. If the cease fire fails, and the peace plan falls through, then it's back to the drawing board. It's the only option, to keep working, keep open dialogue, and to keep trying.

What would you propose? Palestinians stop hating Jews? Palestinians stop wanting their land back? Palestinians stop not approving of check points and settlements? What you want is fiction, and can only lead to further stagnation and conflict. You want war.

[VinceZeb]

I hate to have to bring up history again, but the "Palestinians" have no legitmate claim to that land. Israel is being nice by letting them say they should have land.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Under your logic Vince, an American who calls himself an "Israeli" because his mother happens to be Jewish has no more of a claim to that land than a Jordanian who now calls himself "Palestinian".

Expand upon your argument Vince, because it has no validity. Is your citation the Old Testament, Vince? Certainly there were the Old Yishuv had lived there, and in my opinion Jews can make claim to that land, just not sole claim.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Jews can make claim to that land, just not sole claim."

If you're suggesting the majority of Jews do make sole claim to the land then you're backwards. The mosques are highly respected,.

Aren't Palestinian Arabs the ones making a sole claim to holy sites, and requesting the actual removal of Jews from land? Haven't they been the ones digging under the Temple Mount encouraging it's collapse, and desecrating religious tombs? Prior to Israel the wailing wall was used as a toilet. Christian holy sites were inaccesible. There was no respect for archealogical history or the freedom of other cultures. The Palestinian movement makes sole claim and demands the removal of all Jews from Gaza and the West Bank. I've never heard of any mainstream movement to remove the Arabs of Haifa, or Tel Aviv. Certainly not one that's ever made it's way to the bargaining table.


"If an Israeli breaks the law, steals a car, shoots a civilian, there is a code of law which to punish him/her by. The Palestinians don't have this, but they want this"

Huh? Palestinians seceded from Israel and became an autonomous body with an interim self government, it's own CIA trained police force, and legal system. Hey it's a shitty one, but it's theirs. If they have the ability to offer a cease fire as a bargaining chip, they should have the ability to hold forth to it, dontcha think? Unlike Hamid Karzai, the PA pulls the purse strings for all these so called "militants", and all roads lead back to the government. The chaos is organized, and controlled. if they can string up those caught collaborating with Israel crucifiction style , they could in theory take the same hardline stance against "militants" right?

From the CIA factbook:

The Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (the DOP), signed in Washington on 13 September 1993, provided for a transitional period not exceeding five years of Palestinian interim self-government in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Under the DOP, Israel agreed to transfer certain powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, which includes the Palestinian Legislative Council elected in January 1996, as part of the interim self-governing arrangements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994 Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area and in additional areas of the West Bank pursuant to the Israel-PLO 28 September 1995 Interim Agreement, the Israel-PLO 15 January 1997 Protocol Concerning Redeployment in Hebron, the Israel-PLO 23 October 1998 Wye River Memorandum, and the 4 September 1999 Sharm el-Sheikh Agreement.


"On your question of viability, I see ANYTHING as progress between these two factions. "

Really? So how is the potential release of mass murderers going to further peace? Or continuance of violence after a declared cease fire? PEACE!!! A word meaning: harmonius relations, security and order, and the absence of war or other hostilities. Progress doesn't mean things aren't getting progressively worse.

"What you want is fiction, and can only lead to further stagnation and conflict. You want war."

My Perception of the continued violence as an act of war doesn't mean It's something I "want". It's already is a war, and one side has it's arms tied while the other keeps taking cheap shots.

Feel free to justify your above statement somehow otherwise you're just pigeon holding anyone who fully supports Israel as war mongering, and that's just antisemetic. It's antisemetic because your talking about Jews with a double standard, along with a biased and unproven accusation of exclusionary behavior towards non-Jews that plays into old blood libels. I want coexistance. I've said this many times. I'm sure it's easier to debate me when you're telling me what I'm supposed to think but try reading my words and work from there instead. Coexistance.

[ziggytrix]

I hate to have to bring up history again, but the "Palestinians" have no legitmate claim to that land.

No man has a legitimate claim to any land, save what he can acquire through bribery, threats, or mutual law (which is really just more bribery and threats - especially between people of contrary faiths).

Who has the right to say what country can exist where, and what ethnicities it should be comprised of? It's a sad affair. :(