The "Road Map"

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I honestly haven't been able to research this whole peace process well enough, so the observations I make are simply from a more naive exterior perspective.

I know that folks on both sides of the debate are crying foul play on this one. Israeli Right-Wingers are saying they have been violated, that removing settlements is wrong, no land for peace, etc.

Hardliners on the Palestinian side say the peace proposition isn't enough, and I'm guessing within the next couple of weeks we will begin to see a whole new onslaught of suicide attacks.

So, I guess my question is what do all of you feel about it? Is this progress, injustice, or just the same-old-same-old as far as the Middle East is concerned?

I'm open to all opinions on this one, excluding Vince's, of course.

[ItalianStereotype]

war+magic beans=peace

[Zhukov]

I saw a film called Jenin Jenin that interviewed several different Palestinian people from various different walks of life. All the people had different takes on what had happenend and what is happening, but each of their final statements were roughly the same: There will be no peace until a Palestinian state is created with Jerusalem as its capital - even the little girl said she would like to kill Sharon and go back to her ancestoral village.


I really don't know what the Israelis want out of the deal.

[Abcdxxxx]

Well, I can shed a little more light on the Israel's side of things.

The "Road Map" is being seen as a formality, and an obligation. More of a joke then anything. Something the world is pressuring, and it's more of a "let's play along again" attitude. The assumption is that these talks will crumble... but this was the same attitude taken during Oslo, and that stuck. In retrospect, Oslo failed, and the interim Palestinian government has failed. Israel feels it's provided concession after concession with nothing in return to suggest this leads to progress. If Israel refuses, they're seen as intolerant, and very few believe the Palestinians or the violence that comes along with their movement will be satisfied with a small coexisting state,

As it stands now, Arafat retains control. He runs the finances. The new PM has been a close partner of his despite the good cop/bad cop media charade. Nothing has changed. Bush called for a total reform, and that hasn't happened. Bush called for free elections. That hasn't happpened. Abu was appointed instead. Why are we proceeding to the next step?

Simply put - The disputed land was always divided, it was conquered from Egypt, and Jordan, not one single consolidated rulership. Therefore it's unreasonable to view this same division of borders in relation to African pontoons (as Chomsky calls them) or to expect a divided Israel to work. Israel retained the disputed land after 1967 to create more defensable borders, and returned the rest. It was mainly undeveloped land.... and there's a lot of undeveloped land in the Middle East due to agricultural, and geographical conditions.

So here are the real issues ....
What have the Palestinians done to prove they are working in good faith? Even if Israel agrees to dismantle settlements, what exactly are we going to define as a settlement? What exactly do the Palestinians define as a settlement? Wouldn't it be a form of ethnic cleansing to remove Jews, or Israeli citizens from the West Bank? Why should anyone support the creation of yet another arabic state where Jews can not be citizens, and own land ? Isn't there a danger in negotiating with those who take militant actions to fight for their political beliefs? Shouldn't we hold the PA to it's various peace treaties, and cease fire agreements? Will the Palestinians stop once there is a state, or will they continue to fight? What reason do we have to ignore the past doctrines of the PLO, calling for death to all Jews, when this is what continues to be tought in schools? How does this work in the favor of Israel at all? For a Palestinian state to exist, they would have to ride the back of enemy Israel. So let's talk about water rations. Energy. Import/Export. Rather then debate the violence and various ways to reprimand Israel, wouldn't it serve the creation of a new State to focus on these issues first?

Finally. What does Israel gain through this road map?

(also, how many of you are aware that there has been an on-going battle for the past year between the IDF and outpost settlers in settlement areas who continue to squat illegaly? )

[AChimp]

The Road Map should include instructions on how to get to Denny's for their breakfast special.

:waffles

[VinceZeb]

The problem is the "Palestinans" are not going anywhere. It isn't there land. Like I said before, I can't sit on my neighboor's yard and claim I am an indian to get the land. But if all the non-Israel's existance folks want to sit there and say that there will be no peace while Israel exists, then Israel should tell them to knuckle up.

But, if the state is formed and the attacks against Israel continue... well, then Israeli tanks need to have some blood on the treds.

[AChimp]

You know, even here in Canada, an Indian CANNOT just arbitrarily claim someone's land because they "want" it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think I stated pretty clearly that we wouldn't be needing your services here, Vince. :/

[kellychaos]

"Services", huh? That's the most polite euphimism for "whatever it is Vinth does around here" that I've seen so far. Can I use it?

[VinceZeb]

Kevin, show me the deed to the message board you possess. Wait, you don't have one.

[mburbank]

Of all the clambakes Vinth is the clambakiest. I think someone should sit on him and claim the valuable oxygen he's using. If he refuses to stop breathing, then there will need to be some blood on their shoes.

[Isaac]

Currently the Palistnans, are in the West Bank and Gaza Stip ,prodomently, so if they leave these places, where will they go, and why should they leave at all?..Vinth what the fuck are you saying?

[Abcdxxxx]

I don't think anyone is asking them to "leave". The issue is the act of "returning".

but to answer your question - technically they could immigrate to the remaining 90+ percent of the Middle East owned by Arabs.

In actuality it's the Jews who are being asked to leave areas deemed to be "settlements".

It does bring up the question...if you support the removal of Jews from land set aside to create a Palestinian state, then would you support the ejection of the million plus Arabic citizens living inside Israel??

[VinceZeb]

But ABCD, that would mean that the Arabs would be wrong about something, and very few on this board would admit that. They would rather just make snide comments and avoid the issue.

[mburbank]

Huh. Me? I'd say the 'Arabs', who are actually not a single monolithic block, but a huge stew of countries, politcial parties, religous and ethnic groups, are collectively 'wrong' on all sorts of fronts. But you're speaking speciffically of the arab/israeli conflict. There, there are admittedly only a handful of different stances.

Now that we've dumbed it down to a Vinthinian level, I'd be happy to say that I think the Arabs are often 'wrong', although I think that's really small word for brutality, terrorism, intranscigence, hatred, racism, fantacism, etc. etc. I thoiught you knew I felt that way, Vinth, since you attribute anti arab sentiment when coupled with other anti semitic assumptions you think are in some way shocking and edgy.

In fact, if there's a singole person on the board who DOESN't think the Arabs have some major, hideous problems and that there's plenty of blame sto spread around to all parties, most of whom are Arabs, I've missed it.

Let me go further and say I dount there's anyone on this board who supports Arab interests as blindly as you do or as throughly as ABCDXXXX does.

You look at people who feel that the state of Israel shares some of the blame, that many of their actions are fairly nasty, and in your typical "Anyone who disagrees with me is a pussy and they think what I say they think instead of what they post" way reduce any discussion to the level of a school yard shoving match.

You can't help it. You're an idiot with multiple behavioral and learning dissabilities.

[VinceZeb]

For the time it took you to type that out, you could have impressed some rube that walked into your museum that is soaking up my tax dollars.

[mburbank]

So what you mean is, I'm totally right, your observation was completely wrong, but you think you can dodge that by some stupid ass off topic remark.

And we don't get any state funding at all, and we hve to compete with educational and business interest for the federal money we do get, which is ste aside by the government for science. But I've said that before and you didn't understand it then. Why would you have started understanding it now, Prep school admissions coffee boy?

[Abcdxxxx]

Hey now Burbank, if you're going to take a jab at me then at least tie it in to the posts....


I think what you're missing here is that I do have critical views of Israel, but I don't feel the need to balance myself out for reasonable arguments sake. I'm not blind to Israel's faults, I just don't think they equate the two sides on equal footing.... based on an educated opinion. I actually think people who compare the conflict to two school children, who feel the need to shift blame on all parties without weighing reality is pretty condescending...and really as blind as it gets.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

But ABCD, that would mean that the Arabs would be wrong about something, and very few on this board would admit that. They would rather just make snide comments and avoid the issue.

I hope it's somehow comforting to ABC to know that the guy with the NaziBot avatar is standing up for Israel.

Vince, this thread had so much potential, so much youthful hope, filled with wide-eyed expectations. Then you had to post in it.

So, anyway, ABC....

I don't agree with you on much, but one initial comment you made caught my eye:

"(also, how many of you are aware that there has been an on-going battle for the past year between the IDF and outpost settlers in settlement areas who continue to squat illegaly? )"

I saw something about this on the news, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this result in armed conflict between settlers and the IDF???

This is very interesting. I think it shows at least a PUBLIC willingness on the part of the Israeli government to appear open and willing to compromise. So, ABC, I have heard some Israeli Right-Wingers screaming that dismantling any of these settlements will lead to civil war. Is this simply chest pounding, or is there some validity here? Could Israeli compliance with this peace process fracture the country that badly???

[mburbank]

Ah, you caught me commiting a Vinthism, Abc. I left out some key words in a sentence. My bad.

I said

"I dount there's anyone on this board who supports Arab interests as blindly as you do or as throughly as ABCDXXXX does. "

I SHOULD have said "as blindly as you or as throughly as ABCDXXXX support Israeli interests."

By thorough, in your case, I meant informed, and I didn't inend it as a Slam. Your approach (though I disagree often with your conclusions) is Nuance itself comnpared to Vince. I still say though, and this is meant as a rebuttal to Vinth's take on the boards majority, the both you and Vinth, for diffeent reasons, support Israel far more thn anyone here suppoprts any Arab contituency.

People can argue with you, and actual learning can take place. people can't argue with Vinth, becuase he doesn't understand their arguments and insists on construing them as being as infantile, simplistic and weighted as his own. For that matter, people can argue with Italian, El Blanco, Bombs (when he feels like it) and on very rare occasions, even Naldo.

[Abcdxxxx]

ok looks like my response got lost here.

kevin - it's really the opposite. if anything israel is less willing to come down hard on the settlements in a public forum. this has been going on for over a year now, and it's just making it's way to mainstream media...

but to answer... there will. and has been some civil infghting. not sure i'd expect a full on "civil war" though. here's what's going on. israel has turned it's back on the settlements and began targeting the "settlements" that are nothing more then two trailor homes propped up on cinder blocks on some empty hill. these are considered illegal to israel. very little of the housing is government sponsored. think of a complex the size of stuyvesant apartments in nyc, in relation to the entire east side of manhattan. not only has the idf become reluctant to protect the majority of settlements, they have forcefully removed structures, and evicted the residents as sqauters. this has led to violent clashes of a civil uprising nature. in one case last summer, the idf would tear down a farm house, and the settlers would symbolicaly rebuild it again overnight . they've taken to arming themselves not just against the palestinians but against the idf.

i think it's likely there will be attempts to kill sharon. we shouldn't forget that rabin's assasination was likely an inside job.

i want to say something that's very important. do not view all settlers as religious extremists or rebel rousers. some of these communities allow palestinian residents for example. do not assume all of these settlements are even jews. the reluctance to make these distinctions shows the same intolerance as the indymedia crowd who have taken to referencing all israel supporters as nazi's. vince's icon aside... it's frightening.

i still haven't heard an explanation for why gaza and the west bank should be cleansed of all jews. anyone want to answer that?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

i want to say something that's very important. do not view all settlers as religious extremists or rebel rousers. some of these communities allow palestinian residents for example.

Well, since I posed the question to you, more has come up in the press b/c Israel has begun to dismantle some of these outposts.

I read that the head of the settlement communities has a three-pronged strategy of disobedience. One entails fighting this politically within the givernment, the other involves legally appealing this by taking it to their supreme court, and the other involves non-violent civil disobedience.

Now, I realize that most Palestinians don't have the luxury of those kinds of appeals for several reasons (an incompetent self-governance a big part of that), however, I'm beginning to think that many extremist Palestinians could learn a thing or two from the measures being taken by these settlers. Granted, when the IDF roles into Gaza, they probably aren't as cautious and gentle as when they role into a settlement outpost, but I think the actions being taken by these settlers are along the lines of action that many from the more "pro-palestinian" perspective have been hoping we'd see from them.

i still haven't heard an explanation for why gaza and the west bank should be cleansed of all jews. anyone want to answer that?

Was this a stipulation in the peace plan? I've heard nothing of this.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore

Granted, when the IDF roles into Gaza, they probably aren't as cautious and gentle as when they role into a settlement outpost,

When the IDF rolls into a settlement, the world media isn't documenting their every move. Whatever Israel does within PA territory is widely watched. The difference is that ultimately the settlers want a strong Israel, some have served in the IDF, and there is still a mutual understanding of the same goals through different means. It's interesting that this all is just now finally making news.

Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore

but I think the actions being taken by these settlers are along the lines of action that many from the more "pro-palestinian" perspective have been hoping we'd see from them.

Sure, and the pro-israel contingent hope for the same.... but there is still the subtext that the foundations for this particular "liberation" movement is built around racial hate, and a resistance to coexistance. This isn't just in the minds of fanatic zionists. Otherwise Palestinian's are more then capable of matching the moral ideals behind settler uprising tactics. Adopting these same strategies might even get them a state, but it would kill the palestinian's economy, which revolves completely around violence. Hamas and co. might provide community outreach, but they're in the business of war.

Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore

Was this a stipulation in the peace plan? I've heard nothing of this.

Why else are the settlements even an issue? They want to dismantled and remove all Jewish settlements, which would make the land "juden rein"...Jewish free. Otherwise, the settlements and their residents could in theory become citizens of a new Palestinian state, and a Jew could run for office in a new Democratic government. Think that's really gonna happen?

Gaza is the size of Long Island, and if anyone really thinks it's inhabitable (blech!) , then there's still plenty to be developed....so while Gaza city itself is densely populated, it's not like land there is scarce.

[VinceZeb]

Kevin needs to quit running his mouth. The diahrea that is spewing out is flooding my keyboard.

Hamas is the main thorn in Israel's side in this whole situation. They have said they will not stop until Israel does not exist. Now, according to the "Bush Doctrine", Israel should go in there and crush them under their tank treads. That is the appropriate course of action.

[mburbank]

If diareah is coming out of Kevins mouth, why do you keep asking him to blow you?

I mean, you've made it clear you're gay, and there's nothing wrong with that, but asking someone who has diareah coming out of their mouth to blow you... well, that's just kind of sick, don't you think, you sick, fat, gay, transgressive, stupid kid?