We must eliminate Chavez.

[The One and Only...]

Yeah, I have friends. I just avoid doing anything with them after school.

I should be weightlifting, though.

[AChimp]

I'm sure there are a few 20 lb textbooks you could stuff in your Powerpuff Girls schoolbag.

[mburbank]

Seriously, you have friends at school? Other kids you chum around with? What do you do, totally hide every aspect of the personality you display here?

[The One and Only...]

Dude. This is a message board. I come here to deliberately act like a intellectually chauvinistic ass.

I do display some of my pompous characteristics and occasionally talk politics, but I rarely get into huge controversies and ramble on about tax codes.

[AChimp]

Hard to cut-and-paste in real life, huh?

[The One and Only...]

No, it bores people.

BTW: Chavez has brought the standard of living in Venezuela back to the level that it was during the 1940's.

[CastroMotorOil]

God i love this forum, 90% of the time OAO makes sense, yet everyone here is so fucking liberal and dead set against any type of conservatism that they jump on everything he says, as they will jump on me for voicing support of OAO. Plus the Bush hating for no real reason is also great as the country has actualyl gotten better under Bush as he cleans up clinton's mistakes.

[mburbank]

I jump on OAO for the WAY he thinks, not the thoughts themselves. I think mostly he cares a lot more about pumping more hot air into his own human dirigible self than the content of any stand he takes, I think he's way too glib and I think, especially when pushed, he emits buzz words and phrases like a squid emits ink and for the same reasons.

Would you put his suggestion that we 'eliminate' a foreign head of state in the 90% that makes sense or the 10% that doesn't? I'm just curious, it's not like I can fault you either way since currently reserveing the right to 'eliminate' whomever we please is part of US official foreign policy.

As far as the country getting better, I think that's pretty subjective and I strongly disagree. I can only say my opinion is the country is getting way worse, but that has a lot to do with what I think America ought to be. If you're using some sort of factual yardstick to judge the condition of the country, you ought to say what it is. Until then, I'll stick with my opinion of OAO and when he needs jumping on.

Thanks, though. And I'm glad you love this board. I do too.

[Buffalo Tom]

Originally Posted by Zorak790

Plus the Bush hating for no real reason is also great as the country has actualyl gotten better under Bush as he cleans up clinton's mistakes.

Hmmm, let's see. The Bush Administration has squandered the global goodwill from the 9/11 attacks; it has generated a high-level of antipathy with countries around the world because of its tendency to act unilaterally on the international stage, with arrogance and with contempt for the concerns of other countries. American resources are being bled to fuel an anachronistic adventurist foreign policy. The Administration has failed to live up to its high-minded 'No child left behind' education reforms, by under-funding the program and establishing arbitrary and contradictory testing standards. The Administration has presided over a period of significant job loss, with some reports estimating the number of lost jobs at 3 million, yet it continues to do nothing to encourage companies to keep jobs in the United States. The Bush Administration paints itself as fiscally responsible, yet, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, the tax cuts announced in Bush's recent State of the Union address would cost more than $2 trillion U.S. over the next decade. The Administration touts itself ready to meet the security challenges in the wake of 9/11, yet spends money on unproven and unreliable security technology (biometrics come to mind) while not providing the domestic forces who are on the frontline of American emergency response with the necessary funds and resources to do their jobs.

When did sucking on helium tanks become the fashionable thing to do amongst residents from the planet Out-of-Touch?

[The One and Only...]

Wait a second. Did you just say that the Administration is not trying to produce job growth? What the hell do you think those tax cuts on the top 2% are for? Many of those guys are small business owners, and small businesses are the real job generation machines in this country. Greenspan's also helping out with the low interest rates, but he probably would have done that with any politician in place.

Another good reason to eliminate Chavez: oil.

[Buffalo Tom]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

Another good reason to eliminate Chavez: oil.

Yes, I was wondering when you would bring up that issue. Either you were being disingenuous about your initial arguments for Chavez' removal, or you posted some conservative pundit's altruistic arguments for intervention in Venezuela before you got to the bottom of the editorial. I bet before you even came here, you thought Venezuela was the surname of the famous Dodgers pitcher. Please, enlighten us on your arguments for freeing the oppressed oil wells from the democratically-elected Chavez government's tyranny.

[Buffalo Tom]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

Wait a second. Did you just say that the Administration is not trying to produce job growth? What the hell do you think those tax cuts on the top 2% are for? Many of those guys are small business owners, and small businesses are the real job generation machines in this country. Greenspan's also helping out with the low interest rates, but he probably would have done that with any politician in place.

If I am a small business owner and the tax I pay drops from $15, 000 to say $10, 000, I won't necessarily hire more people. Bush's logic in this regard is flawed. As well, from what I've read of the Administration's job creation strategy, there are no concrete provisions to encourage companies to use the money they will save from their tax cuts to create jobs. It's basically a 'Hail Mary' play that relies on corporate America acting without greed - something that some members of this community are incapable of doing, as proven by the scandals over Enron's collapse and Haliburton's military contracts.

[The One and Only...]

Well, you're right; it doesn't necessarily mean that you will. It does mean that it would be easier for you to do so, however, which increases the odds that you will.

Also remember that if the money is invested in stocks, it will fund a company's operations; if it is saved in a bank, it will go towards businesses in the form of a loan; and if it is consumed, it will be added to aggregate that businesses study in order to determine whether to increase productive capacity.

You say "democratically-elected" as if it has some relevance. New flash: Chavez has consolidated power to the point where he can't be taken out of power, regardless of whether or not his people want him out. Don't you find it the slightest bit odd that he's still being "democratically" elected when his approval ratings are below 30%?

The bottom line is Chavez lacks any understanding of what he's doing, his people would be better without him, and we could get a nice free trade deal for that oil. Ruffling more international feathers would not be wise, so if we want to take advantage of the situation, we'd have to do so quietly. A victory for Venezuela, a victory for America, and a victory for the world.

[Protoclown]

Say, you know someone who wasn't democratically elected? George W. Bush.

[CastroMotorOil]

burbank, you are right, that fell in the 10%, as for factual yardstick, that was me spouting off without hard factual backing, mostly based on what i know of economics, social policy yadda yadda yadda, i don't know nearly enough to start a major debate, so i'll refrain from that. I personally like bush, but am scared to death of john ashcroft.

[Buffalo Tom]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

The bottom line is Chavez lacks any understanding of what he's doing, his people would be better without him, and we could get a nice free trade deal for that oil. Ruffling more international feathers would not be wise, so if we want to take advantage of the situation, we'd have to do so quietly. A victory for Venezuela, a victory for America, and a victory for the world.

If Venezuelans, in a post-Chavez era, elect a government that steadfastly refuses to privatize its oil industry, and refuses to participate in any Free Trade deal for the Americas, what do you propose the United States do then?

[mburbank]

Zorak: Okay doke. This is a spout off zone.


OAO: I think if you are in the top 2% of this countries income and you own a small business, it's probably a tax shelter. That is totally spouting off, I have no idea, but my guess is that yiou have to define the word 'small' pretty loosely to have it land you in the USA top 2%.

I also think that growing jobs was way far down on the list of reasons W's folks crafted the tax cuts the way they did, kind of lower than "Pay off bribes" , "slop the hogs" , "Enrich ourselves personally", "Curry future employment in the private sector", "Just for the sheer hell of it, I mean damn! We in charge of everything!" and "This should help them eat cake".

[The One and Only...]

Maybe so, but I doubt it. Corporations are vary good at manipulating tax shelters. Small business owners... are probably less able.

Not all of the small business owners are in the 2% bracket, but Bush's cuts went beyond such a narrow scope anyway. The main reason he would cut for the top 1% is to try and increase funding for banks, which are desperately needed with the interest rates being forced so low by the Feds.

[kellychaos]

Iraq ... Liberia ... Venezuela ... Bush having political problems with another world leading oil producer. What a suprise.

OAO. Your mother called. She wants her crack pipe back. She asked that you stop by the strip bar to drop it off on the way home. She'll be on stage #2. Oh, and buy her a pack of Misty menthol lights. She'll pay you back.

[Rongi]

Originally Posted by AChimp

Hard to cut-and-paste in real life, huh?

That was too funny

[Zhukov]

Chavez recently said he was afraid of being killed by the US actually... I lost the article.

With or without Chavez the revolution continues. Killing him would be pretty nasty, but the workers and poor are conscious of their conditions and are willing to defend the gains of Chavez's mild reforms.

I know two Venezuelans, and they both like Chavez. That's 100%.

I really like Venezuela and I might go there in the future.

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Chavez recently said he was afraid of being killed by the US actually... I lost the article.

He should be. Bush had been voicing concerns over him in the early days, but they subsided.

With or without Chavez the revolution continues. Killing him would be pretty nasty, but the workers and poor are conscious of their conditions and are willing to defend the gains of Chavez's mild reforms.

I'm not so sure that 30% of the populace can continue a revolution. Sounds to me that the revolution is going in the opposite direction.

I know two Venezuelans, and they both like Chavez. That's 100%.

Well, that's great. But I'm going to go with the research here.

I really like Venezuela and I might go there in the future.

If you really want to live in the 1940's...

[Zhukov]

Well I don't beleive that only 30% support him. Especially after the atempted coup. We'll see after the referendum. The oposition had alot of trouble getting the 2.4 million signatures required to have a referendum you know.

Sounds to me that the revolution is going in the opposite direction.

That's because you don't know about the bolivarian revolution at all.

If you really want to live in the 1940's...

OUCH

[mburbank]

Dufus. I meant that a small business owner in the top 2% is making the bulk of his money some other way and is using the small business as a tax loss.

And you seriously think that the main reason behind Bush cutting the top 1% taxes was to increase bank loans? Honestly? It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he's a silver spoon numbfuck who's never known anybody but other silver spoon numbfucks and never sees pals around with anybody who can't buy a 2000 plate of pancakes out of pocketchange? And so he's grown up thinking that an ultrawealthy numbfuck having to think twice about another yacht or baseball team or self aggrandizing poorly concieved business venture is more of a tragedy than an average guy trying to figure out how to feed and clothe his kids, pay a mortage and a car payment and get through a cold winter and maybe God forbid take the wife to the movies this month without going even deeper into debt? You honestly think the major driving concern behind his tax plan was greasing the great economic wheel so all boats would rise with the tide? Newsflash. In a few more years your parents are going to stop paying your bills. About a decade later they'll get sick of you living at home.

[The One and Only...]

That's exactly what I'm saying that I believe, because I don't think there is a vast right-wing conspiracy aimed at destroying the poor and middle class so that they have to worship their wealthy masters.

Burbank, I really don't care about you or any of the poor people in this country. You know why? Hmm? Because you are rich. If you lived in a third-world environment, I might care. But you don't, so take your blessings, and let the private sector do it's work so that everyone will benefit.

Taxation is immoral anyway.