Thank God this doesn't apply to the Catholic Church!

[kahljorn]

"but it was in response to this "hypocricy" nonsense that gets thrown around. "

I didn't really say they were hypocrites for sinning, but sinning without true repentence. Remember, sinning without trying to change? I think I kind of consider repentence and change the same way.

"I'm not saying people shouldn't strive for it. I'm also not saying that people can be bad Christians. I am however saying that it isn't my job, nor is it yours, to pass that judgement. .... etc."

You are misunderstanding me, I'm not "Ripping" on them, just discussing their general psychology. You see, that's why I said you guys are wrong in assuming I'm a "Jilted former christian". I'm not doing this because I want to give christianity a bad name, I'm actually doing it for good reasons, and with those thoughts in mind, I'm doing it to improve the christian religion, and subsequently the world on at least some pointless level that probably won't occur...

"Saying that "most" Christians are bad Christians because they mess up sometimes is a whole other thing, and it's wrong. "

They are poor representations of christ, wouldn't you agree? Compare them on a side-by-side basis. It's like elvis impersonators, some are good, some are bad. Again, I'm not damning anyone to hell or even claiming that they will be sent to a firey death, I don't believe in that shit anyhow. What I am saying is that there's a discernable level of how good someone is, and as far as the grand scale goes they are mostly average, and in this world average generally means "ON the bad side".
I'm not saying they are all murderers and rapists, more so I'm saying they don't understand the functions of their own religion because they have never bothered to consider it. Which to me is like being a child, and it's not very adult-like. Do you think God would want you to accept his word(being spoken through a human beings mouth) without question? And not questioned in a bad way, just questioned so you can receieve the true answer from God or whatever silly shit you want to say. We all have a potential, and not living up to it is throwing away the gifts of God.
Wouldn't you say that strive for understanding is something that as any religious person you should be attempting to find out? It's like being a literary expert who never has, and never will, read a piece of literature.

"Something you are terribly unqualified to assess. Again-- how do you TRULY know that people who contradict God, or who sin and then ask for forgiveness, are doing so in an "arbitrary" fashion? Who are you, the sinner, to make that judgement?"

Personal experience? Psychological knowledge? The idea that, 95% of the time they are doing "Me" things(Which isn't bad, you need some "Me" things or you'll shit your pants and simotaneously starve/dehydrate to death) makes me think that. The other times it's ON A WHIM or LACKING JUDGEMENT OR PRINCIPLE. They treat it like another me thing, "This way I'm assuring my admintance into heaven" or some other dilusion.
What I'm suggesting isn't attempted moments of "Christ-likeness" but everyday, every hour full of it. Even if it's just attempted, because attempts(generally speaking) lead to success, and in a case like this the successes will be frequent and grand for everyone, especially "Me". What better way to live for yourself..? I consider anything else perpetuating a sinful personality. In the same respect, living like christ is a perpetuating experience.

"John 8:7? "
I haven't thrown any stones, quite the contrary, I've been saying they don't deserve bad. In that very statement. I've also mentioned on multiple occasions that I even hold myself to the statements I make, that much should be clearly relevant. This isn't personal perception that excludes me, fucko, that's why you appear a jackass to me. This is on the whole, including me and the pope and whatever other fucking martyrs want to throw their two cents in. To me, this is the most important underlying foundation.
I'm not damning anyone.

"And what has helped yu determind that a majority of Christians don't do this?"

Personal experience, personal observations. It's a very pure event, and it can't really be cluttered with personal feelings and such, which is why although alot may change and focus on the path, few seek to understand. Without understanding, the path they are walking is unknown to them, so who knows if they are heading in the right direction? Like i said, at least they try, but all the same, what does it matter?
Put it this way, kevin: If everybody was living these ideals, then idealy the world would be ideal, correct? However, clearly these ideals aren't being lived, and that's why the world is not ideal.
That is all I need to know, really, and on a whole I haven't really noticed society changing much in the past few thousand years. That's another indication, to me, that religion isn't very religious along with most other social institutions.
Let me ask you another question, why do you think most people don't try harder? We both agree that sometimes people do try, but to what extent? What is holding them back? Laziness, fear of change? Fear of themselves, fear of what others will think? Fear of being alone? List some more reasons you think people don't try hard enough, than consider that with what they are trying.
Is it things they don't fear? Things their friends won't care about? Things they can brag about? What is it, and what relation does it have to them? In that true nature, not it's outwardly nature, does it remain christ-like or even remotely selfless in some sense?

"none of them were Christ, but anyway"

I'm going to look up some historical data on, I believe, Balder for you. You see, when greece or some such place was raided they declared that statues of Balder were not to be harmed for he is the likeness of Christ and should be worshipped as such. Like I said, I'll find it.
Ezekiel ascended to heaven in a firey chariot to join God, that makes him a son of man in christ's image. Again, read ezekiel two and three. It's like enoch, how can you not consider him on the same level of jesus? From what some people believe, enoch was raised to the position just under God, the human representation of perfection: Metatron(A scribe much on the level of hermes or thoth). Anything else is church propaganda, it's like how alot of people really reveer the virgin mary and others don't really pay her much mind.
Don't take the metatron thing too seriously(it's not in the bible, but it is relevant elsewhere in certain talmudic circles), I merely mention it as an example.

"But what's your proof? My argument is that there is no bulk of good and bad Christians."

Sure. Human beings on a whole have a bulk of "Good and bad people", of course most social institutions are going to follow suit. Keep pretending the world is perfect, though.

"Both views are based off of personal experience and assumptions"

What else would it be based on, God-like clairvoyance? What the hell else could anything anybody is saying be based upon. That point is clearly moot.

"But the parable is appropriate because it also highlights the absurdity in looking at a wealthy person today and saying that they are by default going to hell. "

The other verse i read said, "A wealthy person entering heaven is about as likely as a camel passing through the eye of a needle". Sure, it happens, like I said: When it involves people, there's always anomalies. You should really adopt some of the last two things I'm saying as some kind of permanant reality, I think it would be helpful for you.

"After all, if you were really smart and did really well in life and made lots of money, it's all because of God, isn't it?"

How many people become rich in an honest fashion without hurting alot of people? How many people continue to do dishonest things in order to stay rich? How many people are so rich that they could help ALOT of people without it barely even scratching them that don't, or do for some kind of publicity or tax cut? I'm sure some people do, but I'm sure there's some that don't, too.
The bible pretty much calls money the base of all corruption for humanity, so you know. I could prolly find that verse if you want, too.

"It's because if society accepts it, then you create a culture of sin, one that becomes pervasive throughout everything"

That's very true and I accept that, I didn't say they would goto hell for it I just said it's probably wrong of them to do. Do you think living in fear is an excuse you could use with God? Consider it like that, when they go before god and say, "Well, I was going to donate money to charity but i wanted to buy a TV?" God will go, "Okay, that's fine come on up to heaven where we bought you twenty big screen televisions so you can be in a room with walls made of televisions! But no couch, you impetious humans are not allowed to sit(true story, humans actually AREN'T allowed to sit in heaven :O )"

In the end, the world is still a horrible place that hasn't changed much over the last 7,000 years or so of recorded history. There's still massive wars and corruption at every turn. Oppression still reigns supreme. If religion as a cultural device was there to develop culture, than it has failed horribly. This of course isn't without exception, but overall as far as the grand eye can see, since the christian religion has come into power the world has not become a better place.
As such, religion has failed to attain it's purpose, and the human beings engulfed by it have remained the same.

"i don't see you as being very different from the hypocrites you're ranting on about"

Hypocricy doesn't really bother me very much, honestly. But, point away at my hypocricy. I suppose you're discoursing on how I'm "Judging"? I'm judging no one, just putting together the pieces that are already apparant just by looking outside or reading the news.

Remember, you should try to be christ-like every day and every second. That's the path to God.